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  #1376  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
I think he may be going full Nazi, guys.

Trump melts down at press conference - Lawyers, Guns & Money : Lawyers, Guns & Money

If there are any deities out there listening, please let this cause the end of his administration.
It is an interesting lithmus test. I worry that there may be a lot of folks who think like this.

They are apparently worried about the right to free speech of people who oppose free speech and favor authoritarianism. I was especially struck by the fact that Trump, in his first statement, called anti nazis protester bigoted without getting challenged too hard on that. So now it is bigotry to be against people who are bigoted?

And hey those black lives matters protesters are scary too mmmkay? Also, anti-fascism is fascism, because violence. Also Obama did it with his vicious racialist rhetoric. This last one is especially rich.

I fear it may not be the colossal, monumental blunder you would hope and expect it to be.
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  #1377  
Old 08-16-2017, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

It's a bit like the frog in boiling water. I wrote awhile back that there was a point beyond which I'd want to get the fuck out of the country. Nazis having rallies in public and flat-out killing people seems like a rather horrifying milestone. It's rather ironic (and depressing) that the German chancellor issued a vastly more unambiguous denunciation of Nazism than the American president. I think I'd feel safer in Germany right now.


This seems about right:

When "Free Speech" Kills - The Establishment

Key quotes:

Quote:
In truth, it’s marginalized people, queer/trans people and women of color like myself, who often look askance at the tremendous amount of ink spilled by white men like Greenwald defending the untrammeled rights of people who A) say they want to kill us and take away our rights, and B) do so on a regular basis.

We don’t look at Nazis being too scared to march and think “there but for the grace of God go I,” but instead think, “good, I can breathe that much easier.”

[...]

Since Greenwald is so eager to liken us to Dick Cheney, I might point out that this invidious equation of fascists, socialists, and communists is itself a popular right wing talking point. But one need only say this: there are many kinds of socialism and communism that are not Stalinism; there is no expression of fascism but Hitlerism. We can and should be able to make moral judgements accordingly.

Our deaths — the deaths of trans folks, POC, and members of other marginalized communities — are the true content of Nazi, white supremacist, and neo-Confederate speech. Their rallies are “peaceful” in the way Richard Spencer’s promise of “peaceful ethnic cleansing” is peaceful.

Contrary to Greenwald’s bizarre fantasy about how all non-whites agree with his absolutism, we understand that reality and organize around it. Securing unlimited rights for Nazis does not guarantee my rights; it forfeits them. Bear in mind who Fields targeted with his car: a group of protesters, many of whom were women and people of colour carrying “Black Lives Matter” signs.

As I was at pains to point out months ago, this vision of untroubled free speech always runs afoul of the fact that there are rights conflicts in any democracy. No one person can have unlimited rights, lest they inevitably interfere with the rights of others. In this case, the privileged indulgence in the rights of Charlottesville’s Nazi marchers conflicted quite directly with the right to life putatively enjoyed by the counter-protesters (who all comprise direct targets of Nazi violence).

How many of us must die before liberal and left wing white men realize that they’re not the ones being asked to make the ultimate sacrifice so they can hold on to a parlor game principle? Why do they not see that the “free speech” argument creates a moral loophole large enough for these murderers to drive through?

Jeremy Christian, who murdered two men on a light rail train in Portland, OR, reportedly said “Get stabbed in your neck if you hate free speech” to police, days after attending a “free speech rally” in the city that hosted extreme right wing groups. These people are adopting this term for a reason. When we use “free speech” as moral spackle to cover up the true content of these people’s’ beliefs and deeds, they will take that as a cue and use it accordingly.

This nonsense will keep getting people killed until we grow up as a society and accept that we can make decisive moral judgements about speech acts. Taking action against Nazis is not a slippery slope; it’s a sticky floor. It is the ethical ground on which we must stand in order to take our bearings.

The catastrophic failure of mealy mouthed “both sides”-ism, which Greenwald’s editorial is but the liberal version of, was revealed this week when Trump’s initial condemnation only blamed nameless “many sides” for violence that had a single source.

To look at how white supremacists, neo-Confederates, and Nazis cheered on that statement, even though it (in some vague, abstract way) condemned them, is instructive. It tells you how and why they thrive on moral ambiguity and relativism, why condemning “both sides” is illusory in its fairness and how it actually emboldens the true culprits by enabling them to skulk in the shadows of namelessness.

[...] every inch of permission granted by our liberal thought-leaders, and the leftists who’ve abetted their arguments, every bit of digital earth ceded by Twitter, Google, and Facebook, every “it’s the principle of the thing!” argument made by well-meaning whites in defense of our would-be assassins, brought us closer and closer to the point where Charlottesville was inevitable.

As so many of us pointed out, the Klansmen, Nazis, and neo-Confederates were marching en masse in broad daylight without hoods or masks. That boldness has its origins in the permission granted by powerful institutions and prominent commentators who said the “marketplace of ideas” would crush Nazism, in Twitter’s ongoing failure to stamp out the Nazi presence on the platform, in the excuses made by liberal/left commentators eager to score easy points off of student activists rather than do the hard work needed to fight an actual threat to freedom.

All this in the name of that foolish consistency that Emerson excoriated so long ago, as if discernment were not also a moral and intellectual skill.

I could say “the time for illusions is over” or some such thing, but people of color have been dying for decades so that people like Greenwald or Chait could cling to a fantasy of “free speech” that never includes us when we need it most, that privileges the speech rights of our murderers over our right to live. It needs to stop now.

I am not the price to be paid for the hobgoblin of your consistent arguments.
Again, read the whole thing.

As I've gotten older, I've gotten more and more sceptical of "free speech" as an end to itself. At this point I think little more highly of people who hide behind it as a defence for atrocities than I think of gun nuts who hide behind the Second Amendment. The ACLU should be doing some serious soul-searching right now; I'm going to be redirecting my donations to the SPLC for some time, I suspect.
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  #1378  
Old 08-16-2017, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Man, fuck Glenn Greenwald.
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  #1379  
Old 08-16-2017, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Marco Rubio on Twitter: "We cannot be a party that nominates someone who refuses to condemn white supremacists and the Ku Klux Klan."

lol 2016
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  #1380  
Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Trump lawyer forwards an email by a conspiracy nut: Washington and Lee were basically the same person. You literally cannot be against one and and in favor of the other.

Trump Lawyer Forwards Email Echoing Secessionist Rhetoric - NYTimes.com
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  #1381  
Old Today, 09:22 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

It sounds like Mueller’s investigation may be about to turn another corner, as shoes have continued to drop. I do wonder whether we’re going to have to go through Imelda Marcos’ entire collection before we’re rid of the Nazi-in-Chief, though.

Felix Sater: Donald Trump’s Original Russia Connection

Quote:
On June 19 in a courtroom in Downtown Brooklyn, a federal judge took up the enigmatic case of an individual known as John Doe. According to the heavily redacted court record, Doe was an expert money launderer, convicted in connection with a stock swindle almost 20 years ago. But many other facts about his strange and sordid case remained obscured. The courtroom was filled with investigative journalists from numerous outlets along with lawyers petitioning to unseal documents related to the prosecution. “This case,” argued John Langford, a First Amendment specialist from Yale Law School who represented a Forbes editor, implicates an “integrity interest of the highest order.” The public had a right to know more about Doe’s history, Langford argued, especially in light of “the relationship between the defendant in this case and the president of the United States.”

John Doe’s real name, everyone in the courtroom knew, was Felix Sater. Born in Moscow and raised in Brooklyn, Sater was Donald Trump’s original conduit to Russia. As a real-estate deal-maker, he was the moving force behind the Trump Soho tower, which was built by developers from the former Soviet Union a decade ago. Long before Donald Trump Jr. sat down to talk about kompromat with a group of Kremlin-connected Russians, Sater squired him and Ivanka around on their first business trip to Moscow. And long before their father struck up a bizarrely chummy relationship with Vladimir Putin, Sater was the one who introduced the future president to a byzantine world of oligarchs and mysterious money.

Sater was a canny operator and a colorful bullshitter, and there were always many rumors about his background: that he was a spy, that he was an FBI informant, that he was tied to organized crime. Like a lot of aspects of the stranger-than-fiction era of President Trump, these stories were both conspiratorial on their face and, it turns out, verifiably true. Langford read aloud from the transcript of a 2011 court hearing, only recently disclosed, in which the Justice Department acknowledged Sater’s assistance in investigations of the Mafia, the Russian mob, Al Qaeda, and unspecified “foreign governments.” A prosecutor once called Sater, in another secret proceeding, “the key to open a hundred different doors.” Many were wondering now whether he could unlock the truth about Trump and Russia.

In the universe of what the president has called, with telling self-centrism, his “satellite” associates, Sater spins in an unmapped orbit. The president has said under oath that he “really wouldn’t know what he looked like” if they were in the same room. (For the record, Sater is 51 years old and olive-complexioned, with heavy-lidded eyes.) Yet their paths have intersected frequently over the years. Most recently, in February, the Times reported that Sater had attempted to broker a pro-Russian peace deal in Ukraine, handing a proposal to Michael Cohen, the president’s personal attorney, to pass to Michael Flynn, who was then still the national-security adviser. Both Cohen and Flynn are now reported to be under scrutiny by the FBI, in connection with special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation of Russia’s election interference and Trump’s campaign.

If there really is a sinister explanation for the mutual affinity between Trump and Putin, it almost certainly traces back to money…
Forget Charlottesville — Russia is still the true Trump scandal | The Spectator

Quote:
A vague outline of the truth is starting to emerge from the fog. It is that the Russians made continual attempts to get close to Trump and his associates, part of what the US intelligence agencies all agree was a Kremlin plot to subvert the election. Trump’s supporters believe that any such approaches never went anywhere (as Jr says happened with his meeting) or that the tough New York property developer from The Apprentice was playing the Russians without being played himself. Trump’s enemies, believing him to be a man with no moral compass, imagine he was only too eager to take whatever was being offered: information; weird sex in a Moscow hotel room; money, lots of it, for his businesses.

This is why it is so important that the FBI investigation, led by a special counsel, Robert Mueller, now appears to be reaching back into Trump’s business past. Mueller’s team of prosecutors includes a number of experts in money-laundering and New York real estate. The US media is speculating that he is trying to build an old-fashioned wire fraud, tax evasion and racketeering case against Trump. This is a neuralgic issue for the President. In a New York Times interview he agreed that any investigation of his finances was a ‘red line’ Mueller should not cross. ‘I would say yeah. I would say yes. By the way, I would say, I don’t — I don’t — I mean, it’s possible there’s a condo or something, so, you know, I sell a lot of condo units, and somebody from Russia buys a condo, who knows?’ Trump’s most recent partner in ‘selling a lot of condos’ was a man called Felix Sater. Sater was once jailed for stabbing a man in the face with the broken stem of a martini glass. He was convicted of a massive stock fraud — a partnership between the Russian and Italian-American mafias — but stayed out of jail by becoming an FBI informant.

For several weeks there have been rumours that Sater is ready to rat again, agreeing to help Mueller. ‘He has told family and friends he knows he and POTUS are going to prison,’ someone talking to Mueller’s investigators informed me. Sater himself added fuel to this fire when he told New York magazine last week: ‘In about the next 30 to 35 days, I will be the most colourful character you have ever talked about. Unfortunately, I can’t talk about it now, before it happens. And believe me, it ain’t anything as small as whether or not they’re gonna call me to the Senate committee.’

Sater and Manafort together would pose a deadly threat to Trump’s presidency if they testify that Russian money in his businesses led to information being exchanged with Russian intelligence. This is exactly the relationship — an ‘exchange running between them for at least eight years’ — that the former MI6 officer Christopher Steele described in his ‘dossier’. At a news conference this week at his New Jersey golf club, the President bizarrely asserted that the Steele dossier had been paid for by Russia in order to damage him. This is the latest twist in Trump’s response to the dossier, which began with flat denials in January that he had been filmed by Russian intelligence with prostitutes in a Moscow hotel room.

That remains unproven. Nevertheless, Steele is not the only source. I heard of Russian kompromat — compromising material — on Trump from two sources months before the Steele dossier came to light. That might be evidence for Trump’s statement that Russian intelligence, as well as the US agencies, are out to get him. There are, though, reports of witnesses in the hotel who corroborate Steele’s reporting. These include an American who’s said to have seen a row with hotel security over whether the (alleged) hookers would be allowed up to Trump’s suite. The dossier’s account of hookers in a Moscow hotel room was the subject of gossip among a select group of journalists, politicians, and intelligence people for months before it was published. Now, claims are circulating of more tapes showing even more extreme behaviour. Expect these allegations to emerge in due course.

Some Republicans in Congress are tiring of the Trump reality show, a mix of The Sopranos and the Kardashians. The Mueller inquiry plods along relentlessly but prosecuting a president is a political decision. Reckless as ever, the President has tweeted criticism of the Senate’s Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, whose help he will need if Mueller finds anything damning. The President’s ordinary supporters don’t care. They fear that they are losing their country — this was an election above all about race; all else is trivia to them, an iEnquirer headline.

Even if all the allegations are shown to be true, Trump will simply emerge as the person they supposed him to be when they voted for him.
Sater has also said he thinks he and the president* will be going to prison soon, while the president*’s ghostwriter for The Art of the Deal, Tony Schwartz, appears to think he will soon be forced to resign. Several sources with varying degrees of connections have suggested that things are going to reach a turning point within the next few weeks, including Rick Wilson, who seems to have known the contents of the Steele dossier before it was actually public knowledge, as well as Schwartz. Wilson recently retweeted a message he’d posted shortly after the election with a cryptic explanation:



All I can add is that I sincerely hope our national nightmare will be over soon. I don’t know if I can take another three and a half years of this.
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“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

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  #1382  
Old Today, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

All I can add is that I sincerely hope our national nightmare will be over soon. I don’t know if I can take another three and a half years of this.

:hmmm:

I think the biggest mistake you Americans can make right now is to allow yourselves to be lulled into believing that Trump is your nightmare. He's just the abscess on the arse of your nightmare.

The Nazification of white voters is your nightmare and you aren't going to wake up from it just by toppling Trump.

Remind me, who is Mike Pence again?
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  #1383  
Old Today, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

MIKE PENCE FOR PRESIDENT
How Much Worse Could It Be?
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  #1384  
Old Today, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

We may find out :shudder:
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  #1385  
Old Today, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

The problem is that Pence is complicit. He should be removed with Trump.

The next problem is that Ryan is complicit. He, too, should be removed with Trump.

That would take us to Senate President Pro Tempore...Orrin Hatch. So far as I know, he is not complicit in any aspect of the treason and conspiracy.

Is Orrin Hatch any better than Mike Pence?

And, I warrant that not much of any of this will come to pass. I am curious to see what DOES happen, because I have advanced to the point that I suspect that an extra-constitutional method may be necessary to right the ship of state. Is there any institution adequate to play the role of the modern Praetorian Guard?
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  #1386  
Old Today, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

And today, it's bye bye and happy trails to Steve Bannon.

It's only a matter of time until Melania and the young 'uns are answering phones and scrubbing toilets at the White House.

ETA: Okay, that explains things. I hadn't read about Bannon drunk-dialing Robert Kuttner a couple of days back.

Quote:
The conversation ended with Bannon inviting me to the White House after Labor Day to continue the discussion of China and trade. We’ll see if he’s still there.
:laugh:
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  #1387  
Old Today, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

It's too bad our li'l passive aggressive racist doesn't have the guts to post in this thread. He's already in over his head just picking at the low-hanging Peacegirl fruit, I guess.

Funny that, though, that you can't even drag a Trump fanboi out to defend the guy in public. Maybe they have some self awareness after all.
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Old Today, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
And today, it's bye bye and happy trails to Steve Bannon.

It's only a matter of time until Melania and the young 'uns are answering phones and scrubbing toilets at the White House.
Maybe it'll get to be like that scene toward the climax of The Fountainhead, where the publisher Gail Wynand and his wife, Dominique Francone (though really Howard Roark's fuck toy) are putting out the New York Banner by themselves after the newspaper's staff walked out on strike, because really, who needs labor or labor unions? There's no question if push came to shove, the publisher of any newspaper could put out the paper by himself without any employees.

We are living through such a tragic time now that even humor and satire, always my personal life preservers, don't suffice. This sad chapter in our malignant history is not going to end well.
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  #1389  
Old Today, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Mike Pence is a sanctimonious sociopath, instead of a narcissistic sociopath.

He would be the most committed evangelical figure to get control of the government yet, worse than Bush. Bush was bad, but tbh I don't think he was a true believer on some of those religious right issues (based on reports of how he interacted with gay people in his personal life, for example). With Mike Pence not only would he be running on homophobia, but I wouldn't be surprised if he would actually try to purge the executive of LGBT staffers.

However, Mike Pence I feel is less likely to start a war or launch a nuke because he feels his manhood is being questioned, so in that sense I would sleep easier at night. And he doesn't have anywhere near the same appeal with socially* conservative/economic populist voters that Trump does. Winning back voters we lost in Michigan, for example, I think would be significantly easier with Pence assuming all else equal (approval ratings, economic conditions).

*I mean racists and certain types of misogynists, rather than religious homophobes and anti-abortion misogynists, who obviously would prefer Pence. However, those types were pretty all-in on Trump anyway because 1. the Supreme Court 2. they have no other options and don't tend to go for third-party voting the way that leftists do and 3. a lot of them are also racists anyway

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  #1390  
Old Today, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
He's already in over his head just picking at the low-hanging Peacegirl fruit, I guess.
Serving as Jerome's lulzcow in the science forum is hard work, or so I'm told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Maybe they have some self awareness after all.
:wish:

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
This sad chapter in our malignant history is not going to end well.
At this point it may not end at all, at least until the nation's devolved to early 20th Century Ottoman Empire status and gets divvied up among other nations.
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  #1391  
Old Today, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

I lubs me some DPRK News Service. Great photo of Bannon. Nothing says "Aryan overlord" like a whiskey nose and liver spots.
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  #1392  
Old Today, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Who's left from this photo?

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  #1393  
Old Today, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

I was about to say the painting in the background, but I bet that's been replaced by a giant photoshoped magazine cover.
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Old Today, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Good King Trump

Quote:
Originally Posted by Limoncello View Post
Who's left from this photo?
Trump and Pence are still around, sad to say.
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"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
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  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


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