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Old 06-23-2008, 03:56 AM
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Default Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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Originally Posted by coberst View Post
In the rugged individualist mode of living the individual was creative and master even though the domain of mastery was small. An individual’s personality is dramatically affected. Labor has become an abstract quantity and calculated into the commodity produced. We are the only creatures who have completely removed our self from what we were evolved to be. We are the only creatures removed from our grounding in an organic world. We came from a long ancestry of rugged individualist and now reside in the Artificial Kingdom.
Artificial? How so? How is it possible to remove ourselves from nature when, in fact nature is all there is? :dunno: Unless of course evolution, in its assuring the survival of the fittest, is such that it ultimately produces that which is capable of outsmarting the design? Well, such would be the case in a system that continues to improve itself, while getting more and more sophisticated, almost as if the development of intelligence were "its aim." At the very least it produces an environment where, if not mandated (although it certainly seems this way), that "learning" is achievable. Hence it would seem man has become the fulfillment or, serves as a testimony to the genuine purpose behind evolutionary design ... which is to say, develop the ability to question one's origins and, acknowledge the Creator. At which point (by means of conscious inquiry) one transcends or, steps beyond the framework of evolutionary design. So, in that sense, everything about the evolutionary "leaning process," strives to know God.

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To what end only time will tell.
Yea.
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Old 06-23-2008, 06:32 AM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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If it all comes from the same place, then it is all a testimony to its origin, whether it appears to have evolved or not. And, since everything seems to be striving for a "greater purpose"—if not, then why do things become increasingly complex and more refined (see my new thread)—it would appear to be an act of Intelligent Design.
Things only become more complex at energy boundaries where non-equilibrium thermodynamics is in play. Everywhere else it is winding down. Becoming less complex. And to add insult to injury, because of the continued inflation of the universe at some point in time the density of matter will get so low that there will not be enough gravitational interaction between galaxies to stimulate new star growth from what is left of the light elements so there will be no more energy boundaries for life to self organize and create complexity. The batteries of the universe so to speak will be dead. How is that for destiny?
So, how does this explain the nature of intelligence in human beings? or, the development of life in general? Does that mean human consciousness exists upon one of these so-called boundaries? That very well could be if, as it is claimed, consciousness exists at the foundational level (as a basic substrate) of reality. And yes, by means of our ability to understand the nature of our origin, we are that much closer to our origin and, hence our beginning. Is this what you mean by boundary? ... where, perhaps the Universe (or its batteries) got its "original charge?"
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Old 06-23-2008, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

Yes, evolution has a purpose. I will now tell you what it is.

Pigeons.

Pigeons are the purpose of evolution.

Did you know that pigeons are believed to have up to six cones? Cones allow us to see color. Humans have three cones, corresponding to what we call the primary colors: Red, green and blue. The millions of colors that we actually see, along with tints from white and black, are just offshoots from those three cones.

But pigeons are thought to have six cones. This means that they see three extra primary colors to which humans are completely oblivious. For us to imagine what these colors look like (along with all the attendant admixtures) is as futile as asking a man born blind to evisage red, green and blue, and all the admixtures thereof.

Did you know that pigeons are not only able to walk, but also to fly? Sure, they can! All they need to do is flap their wings, and they're airborne! Can you flap your arms, and fly?

Pigeons don't need to pay taxes, look for a job, put up with annoying roommates or find a place to live, either by buying or renting. Pigeons don't have to freak out about the fact that they're going to die, since they lack the concept of death. Pigeons don't have to deal with George Bush.

Pigeons don't have to go to the grocery store, or worry if they have enough money to buy food. All they need to do is swoop down from the sky and grab some grub. Pigeons don't go through all the rigmarole that humans do to attract the opposite sex: they just do it.

The conclusion is clear: Pigeons are the culmination and purpose of evolution!

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Old 06-23-2008, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

Pigeons, just like everything else in the Universe, are an expression of whatever it is that put them here. If it is an expression of things that "just happen," which is tantamount to saying there is no basis for it, and hence an expression of nothing, then so be it. However, that doesn't offer any explanation for "why" it is here ... i.e., when in fact it shouldn't be.
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Old 06-23-2008, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Pigeons, just like everything else in the Universe, are an expression of whatever it is that put them here. If it is an expression of things that "just happen," which is tantamount to saying there is no basis for it, and hence becomes an expression of nothing, then so be it. However, that doesn't offer any justification for "why" it is here ... i.e., when in fact it shouldn't be.
No, "just happen" is not an expression of "nothing."

You are wedded to the notion that for anything to exist, a mind or a purpose must be the basis or foundation for this existence. But, not only is "mind" or "purpose" unnecessary to life and the cosmos, there is no evidence for such a mind or purpose.

What pisses people off about the fact of evolution, and the theory that accurately explains the fact, is not just that evolution (in fact and theory) invalidates as literal truth mytholgies like the biblical creation story. What also pisses people off is that evolution has no teleological component whatsoever. There is no purpose or goal behind evolution; the concept of "purpose" in evolution is entirely superfluous. That's what people hate, because people want themselves to be the special purpose of creation.

But we're not.

Pigeons are.
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Old 06-23-2008, 06:41 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Pigeons, just like everything else in the Universe, are an expression of whatever it is that put them here. If it is an expression of things that "just happen," which is tantamount to saying there is no basis for it, and hence becomes an expression of nothing, then so be it. However, that doesn't offer any justification for "why" it is here ... i.e., when in fact it shouldn't be.
No, "just happen" is not an expression of "nothing."
Correct, it is an expression of "arbitrariness," where things just happen on "a whim," bereft of any foundation, that is. And that's about as close as you can get to nothing without actually saying it.

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You are wedded to the notion that for anything to exist, a mind or a purpose must be the basis or foundation for this existence. But, not only is "mind" or "purpose" unnecessary to life and the cosmos, there is no evidence for such a mind or purpose.
Yea, notwithstanding that people are "full" of purpose, and can't help but ask "why."

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What pisses people off about the fact of evolution, and the theory that accurately explains the fact, is not just that evolution (in fact and theory) invalidates as literal truth mytholgies like the biblical creation story. What also pisses people off is that evolution has no teleological component whatsoever. There is no purpose or goal behind evolution; the concept of "purpose" in evolution is entirely superfluous. That's what people hate, because people want themselves to be the special purpose of creation.

But we're not.
Yes, evolution is just a process. It has no purpose of its own. However, that isn't to say there is no purpose that operates behind evolution. There is a big distinction there. If, in fact there is something that set the wheels of evolution in motion, then this is what we are unwilling to discuss.
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Last edited by Iacchus; 06-23-2008 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

No.

It does not.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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Pigeons, just like everything else in the Universe, are an expression of whatever it is that put them here. If it is an expression of things that "just happen," which is tantamount to saying there is no basis for it, and hence becomes an expression of nothing, then so be it. However, that doesn't offer any justification for "why" it is here ... i.e., when in fact it shouldn't be.
No, "just happen" is not an expression of "nothing."
Correct, it is an expression of "arbitrariness," where things just happen on "a whim," bereft of any foundation, that is. And that's about as close as you can get to nothing without actually saying it.
Honestly, what the hell is wrong with you? Things happen on a whim?

I started to reply to this rubbish, but decided not to waste my time.

Please, someone else, disabuse this person of his delusions.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

[Alice]
Evolution has a porpoise
[/Alice]
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

He just can't let go of some puppetmaster behind the scenes who is making all this happen, whether it is with 'a purpose' or 'on a whim'.

If things just happen that is because there is no puppetmaster, not wizard behind the curtain, no bearded guy in the sky, no many-armed blue guy or any of those characters.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

ya'll are wasting your time....

if he's happy in his delusions, I say let him be....
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Yes, evolution is just a process. It has no purpose of its own. However, that isn't to say there is no purpose that operates behind evolution. There is a big distinction there. If, in fact there is something that set the wheels of evolution in motion, then this is what we are unwilling to discuss.
Evolution doesn't have wheels.

Seriously though, some of us are willing to discuss whether there is some conscious intent "behind" evolution, its just that, when evidence rather than wistful imaginings informs the course of the conversation, its usually a very short one.

I'll indulge you for a moment and close my eyes and imagine there's some benevolent, hidden hand guiding it all, some higher consciousness that loves me and has a special plan for me, out of all the billions of organisms on the planet...

hm, that made me feel really special for a moment.

But, sadly, the sensation is fleeting. The evidence of my senses, my reason and all of the accounts and reasoning of people who carefully observe and document nature in a manner that eliminates daydreams and desires from the data, compels me to accept that a conscious, god-like intelligence playing some role in the whole affair is unsupported by any evidence or logic.

Iacchus, there's no need for a higher power to make evolutionary theory coherent and no evidence for such a power. So how is appealing to the idea of such a power any different from begging us to consider your imaginary friend Pookie, the fortune-seeking rabbit?

Last edited by Farren; 06-23-2008 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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I started to reply to this rubbish, but decided not to waste my time.

Please, someone else, disabuse this person of his delusions.
Only one thing can save this thread:



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Old 06-23-2008, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

we evolve (usually) to better adapt to our environment.

i think what Iacchus might be getting at is why does that happen at all?
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

Because lineages that do not do so end up extinct?
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

what's wrong with that?
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

It sorta defeats the purpose.

It's hard to evolve if you are extinct.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:18 PM
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It sorta defeats the purpose.
what purpose?
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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what's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

:deepsigh:

Imma go over to the coffeeshop and have some deep discussions there...
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

be sure not to contradict yourself there too :)
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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what's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

that's not what evolution thinks.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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what's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

that's not what evolution thinks.
Seriously abusing the word "thinks" there Michael.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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what's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

that's not what evolution thinks.
I wasn't aware that evolution was capable of thought. What's gravity's opinion on the topic?
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Does Evolution Have a Purpose?

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what's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

that's not what evolution thinks.
Right. And what is gravity's opinion on this?
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