Wisconsin Protests

[LadyShea]

I love it when people take to the streets. Schools have even closed so teachers and students can participate.

Excitin' stuff. I have mixed feelings regarding government workers unions, so I have not chosen a "side" necessarily. I just like watching the people in action.

That being said, no, WI is not anything like Egypt. That is a stupid comparison, people, stop making it please.

[Watser?]

But, but...

I never did

[Crumb]

Walk like a Wisconsin!

[lisarea]

I suppose it is relevant to those who, like me, have wondered if there's anything that could get Americans out in the street protesting. No, it's nothing like the scale or significance of the other protests going on in other parts of the world right now, but it is people who are willing to get out into the streets.

It's worth noting that these are some very sweeping changes being put in place by their new teabagger governor, and that he preemptively threatened to sic the National Guard on any protestors.

[Cliche Guevara]

Originally Posted by lisarea

...he preemptively threatened to sic the National Guard on any protestors.

Anyone for a repeat of Kent State with their cuppa teabagger?

[Clutch Munny]

Unfortunately, we know how these dipshits think, post-Reagan/Thatcher: People we hate are protesting -- we must be doing the right thing!

[vremya]

The Democrats are nowhere to be found - no Democrats, no quorum!

[D. Scarlatti]

They went to Illinois. There's an estimated 30,000 protesters in Madison today, up from 10,000 or so Monday.

[D. Scarlatti]

Bring in the heavyweights. "HUGE rally," predicts the wingnut contingent. We'll see.

[erimir]

They're not talking about the NUMBER of people, ok?

[D. Scarlatti]

Well it is Wisconsin. By the way there are reportedly thousands more in Madison today than there were yesterday.

[D. Scarlatti]

Official estimates today: 5,000 inside the Capitol, 35,000 outside.

[Watser?]

Average week in The Hague.

[D. Scarlatti]

The latest:

Madison — Republicans in the Assembly began quickly voting on a bill late Friday to take away union rights from public workers, without Democrats present.

Then they rescinded the vote, and adjourned until Tuesday. The Republicans (who control both chambers), say they will "consider" amendments, not that any have much hope.

Continued ... (good reporters, btw.)

[Qingdai]

I like how they are perfectly willing to break a contract with workers. So much for contract law.

[California Tanker]

I don't know about State law, but contracts with the Federal Government may be broken at will by the government for services/goods not yet rendered/delivered. And since the State is threatening to lay off some 5,000 workers, it seems to me there's nothing stopping the State from laying off everyone and rehiring under new contracts. However, the sticking point isn't the pension contributions, it's the issue of allowing a State worker's union to begin with.

An interesting point was made when comparing with the Texas walk-out eight years ago. In Texas, at least, there is no requirement for the house to take roll before a vote. When the Demcrats walked out, they needed to leave one representative in the House to raise a point of order that there was not a quorum in the House to pass a bill. If such a requirement exists in Wisconsin, then that one person left behind to make sure that there was no vote without a quorum present would actually bring the number up to a quorum. The questions are if such a thing is present in Wisconsin law.

NTM

[D. Scarlatti]

Oh they can do it alright. And everybody -- including the State employees and their union reps -- agrees the State employees are in for wage and benefit sacrifices. It's the collective bargaining rights that are at issue. That's why the Democratic senators skipped town. The so-called budget repair bill includes their wholesale repeal, except for the right to bargain their rate of pay.

Here's a (conservative pollster, according to Nate Silver) poll showing 52% disapproval for that part of the plan.

[Angakuk]

The collective bargaining restrictions suck. Employees, unionized or not, ought to have the right to negotiate every aspect of their compensation. It is up to the government's representatives on the other side of the table to grow a pair and fight for the best deal they can get. State and city governments are in the present predicament, in part, because in the past they failed to bargain effectively.

[Qingdai]

Or they promised something that they had no intention of funding during their watch, kicking it to the next year's budget and beyond.
Most pension plans are paid into by employees, who in turn sacrifice wage and other current benefits for a promise of future compensation.

Who would ever work overtime on salary, knowing that they'd never get compensated for their extra work?

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Qingdai

Or they promised something that they had no intention of funding during their watch, kicking it to the next year's budget and beyond.

Yeah, well there is that.

[California Tanker]

Originally Posted by Angakuk

The collective bargaining restrictions suck. Employees, unionized or not, ought to have the right to negotiate every aspect of their compensation. It is up to the government's representatives on the other side of the table to grow a pair and fight for the best deal they can get.

They also seem to be a fairly recent concept in the realm of public employee organisations. FDR, for example, generally a supporter of the union concept, was no fan of them when it came to the government. The problem with the government making too much of a fight of it is that government has to operate. Quoting FDR: "a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable." If a private company has a labour dispute resulting in a strike or lock-out, then the most affected persons are only those in the company. The company's clients can usually obtain the goods or services from a competitor. There is no such option for a government labour dispute.

State and city governments are in the present predicament, in part, because in the past they failed to bargain effectively.

One can argue that the State of Wisconsin is now beginning to rectify that omission.

Who would ever work overtime on salary, knowing that they'd never get compensated for their extra work?

I do, because I like the idea of having a job and salary. Until I can find something with better pay/conditions for the work I put in, I'll do whatever it takes. It's a competetive job market out there. If they decide they want me to work too much overtime for me to be comfortable with, I may seek another job that pays less, but has a better quality of life. I don't see the problem.

NTM

[Clutch Munny]

Who would ever give up the right to sue for unlawful dismissal?

I would, because I like the idea of having a job and salary. Until I can find something with better pay/conditions for the work I put in, I'll do whatever it takes.

Who would ever work in an environment where sexual harassment and abuse of employees took place with impunity?

I would, because I like the idea of having a job and salary. Until I can find something with better pay/conditions for the work I put in, I'll do whatever it takes.

Who would ever work in a job in which basic safety measures were routinely unenforced, workers were ordered not to report injuries, and those who either got hurt or complained were fired under the fiction that they had been bad employees?

I would, because I like the idea of having a job and salary. Until I can find something with better pay/conditions for the work I put in, I'll do whatever it takes.


That's the thing about dirt-stupid lolbertarian rationales for bad laws; they tend to be equally good rationales for even worse laws.

[mickthinks]

You've placed CTs words into contexts which make them fail, Clutch, and not just once bit four times.

Would you let a student on one of your courses submit a paper with an argument as false as that?

[Deadlokd]

It's a fair comparison Mick. Working overtime without pay isn't far from giving up suing for unfair dismissal to putting up with sexual harassment.

Our last right wing government brought in laws that enshrined the first two. They were aiming for a US style job market. They failed.

[Clutch Munny]

Abortion is wrong because it's killing human cells.

But that would equally justify saying that scrubbing your skin is wrong. Because it's killing human cells.

You placed my words in a context that made them fail!