Autism, Asperger's, ASD, and maybe people who are just annoying.

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by seebs

You mean sort of like how his concerns ought to be sufficiently paramount that people will respond to a thread they haven't even looked at in two weeks to respond to his questions directed at them out of the blue, but other people's concerns that are directly related to an active discussion are unimportant?

Yeah, that's stereotypical autism.

Just like most people, I have been known to make requests, and also, just like most people, I have been known to decline the requests of others.

Send in the marines!

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by erimir

That statement in no way suggests that I was denying that it was disparaging, and thus, an attack.

It was a denial of "erimir is ... unnecessarily personal and disparaging" and in that context it had the appearance of justifying the necessity of an attack which you have since conceded was an unnecessary attack. It took a month but we got there.

Yes, but all you have to do to demonstrate that it was a false attack on your character is explain your usage of pomo, [...] Instead you choose to complain about the fact that I made this criticism of you, rather than do a single thing to demonstrate that it is false.
The burden of proof doesn't lie with me, though, and I'd rather not reward your sly tactics by accepting it.

Mick

[erimir]

It's a very small burden to explain what you think pomo means (not for you to go out and do research on what it means, but to explain what you currently think it means), when that's all that was asked of you in the first place. But you wouldn't. And the very fact that you refused to do it suggests that you either don't know exactly what you mean by it, or you know that the way you use it doesn't have anything to do with actual post-modernism.

So come on - what do you think it means, and how does the way you use it connect to the philosophical and literary movements of post-modernism?

And btw, how thin-skinned do you have to be to consider it such a grave insult that when someone suggests you don't care what pomo actually means, you're willing to argue for a whole month about whether that attack was "necessary"?

[mickthinks]

You're suggesting that I must have something to hide if I don't produce better testimony to refute your trumped-up charges? Man, that redneck logic is catching on!

And btw, how thin-skinned do you have to be to consider it such a grave insult that when someone suggests you don't care what pomo actually means, you're willing to argue for a whole month about whether that attack was "necessary"?

It doesn't take a thin hide to recognise a pile of horseshit and shovel it back where it came from. Now if you'll stop trying to defending your indefensible crap and admit you've fucked up here, we can move on.

Mick

[seebs]

It makes more sense if you assume that the point of the argument is that it's very upsetting for other people to have made a mistake. In the words of xkcd: "Someone is WRONG on the Internet!"

[mickthinks]

The internet is all the excuse erimir needs to argue like a birther? Okay...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by erimir

And btw, how thin-skinned do you have to be to consider it such a grave insult that when someone suggests you don't care what pomo actually means, you're willing to argue for a whole month about whether that attack was "necessary"?

It's not that he's really all that think skinned, it's just that he's dependent on these inward spiraling fugues of pedantry to avoid being held accountable for the things he says.

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by mickthinks

It doesn't take a thin hide to recognise a pile of horseshit and shovel it back where it came from.

Let's just take a minute and think about that metaphor.

Now if you'll stop trying to defending your indefensible crap and admit you've fucked up here, we can move on.

Mick

Yeah! Like this:

Originally Posted by mickthinks

Okay, you've shown very clearly that "Piaf never used an alveolar trill in her performances" is a widely held view and has the pharisaic backing of many professors. It's an orthodoxy and I'm a heretic.

So burn me!

LOOK AT THAT MORAL COURAGE!!1!

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Let's just take a minute and think about that metaphor.

Yeah! Like this:

LOOK AT THAT MORAL COURAGE!!1!

Is that the whole of America I can hear yawning?

[ChuckF]

omg am I going to get canceled? Are they going to put on some Cheers reruns in my time slot?

hehe you used quote tags. Why didn't you do the stupid green quotes to edit out your intellectual failure and moral cowardice like you usually do?

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by Adam

... these inward spiraling fugues of pedantry ...

You make erimir's month-long wrangling sound quite balletic, Adam

[Adam]

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Let's just take a minute and think about that metaphor.

[erimir]

Originally Posted by mickthinks

You're suggesting that I must have something to hide if I don't produce better testimony to refute your trumped-up charges? Man, that redneck logic is catching on!

Ah, nothing like a classist insult to help your cause along.

No, I'm saying that the evidence that you don't know the meaning of a term is that 1. I've seen you use it, and there doesn't seem to be much of a pattern to it, other than it's people not caring about the same things you care about and 2. when asked simply, in a non-insulting manner (by someone other than me) what it means when you use it (and how it's related to actual post-modernism) you sidestepped the question, which suggests that you can't answer the question adequately. I then commented that I thought you didn't know or care what it really means, which you then took as a pretense to continue to refuse to answer the original question (even when asked again, politely, by the original questioner). Cuz really, my comment should have no bearing on how you treat the original questioner. But in your mind, we're all a mob, so if I make a comment, the other person is responsible for it?

If you could answer the question adequately, you would have. Either you enjoy your pedantic bullshit far more than just giving straight answers, or I was correct in my assessment.

It's not dignifying my "bullshit" to answer the original question, which was not made by me, and not made in an insulting manner. It's just actually having the moral courage to be the bigger man, if anything, while simultaneously showing me to be wrong. But you're far too small for that.

It doesn't take a thin hide to recognise a pile of horseshit and shovel it back where it came from. Now if you'll stop trying to defending your indefensible crap and admit you've fucked up here, we can move on.

Yet another unnecessary and disparaging attack from mickstinks.

I haven't fucked up, as far as I can see. I've seen nothing from you to suggest that I was incorrect in my statement. I'm not apologizing for being disparaging, because I don't see a problem with being disparaging when 1. it's practically the mildest form of disparaging that there could be, 2. I see no reason to think it was incorrect and 3. the person regularly is far more disparaging to others. You accuse almost everyone else of lying about their own thoughts (just a bit more disparaging, I think), but somehow accusing someone of not caring about the definition of a word that they use flippantly and when asked about it they respond that the sentence would mean basically the same thing without it, that, that, is far too unnecessary and disparaging to allow the discussion to continue without addressing that "indefensible crap", much less actually respond to the original question and show that not only was it a disparaging comment, but it was untrue.

It was unnecessary in the sense that all my interactions with you are unnecessary, and that it wasn't really necessary to advance the discussion. But so are many of your insults and comments unnecessary. Who cares.

[mickthinks]

This is just more shit of the kind you've already admitted to, dude.

You're suggesting that I must have something to hide...?
No

So you're no longer saying I have anything to hide? Okay. Some of the things you go on to say, like "which suggests that you can't answer the question adequately" and "If you could answer the question adequately, you would have" but, hey! You know your own mind best so let's not peer into these inconsistences too closely. Cool.

mickstinks OMG! The Jesus Lawyer's name burn ftw!

I haven't fucked up, as far as I can see. Then you're just not looking hard enough. Till next time then, thxbai

[ChuckF]

Originally Posted by mickthinks

but hey, you know your own mind best

Who are you and what have you done with mickthinks?

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by ChuckF

Who are you and what have you done with mickthinks?

ONOES! Did I say the right thing?

[erimir]

Originally Posted by mickthinks

[I]You're suggesting that I must have something to hide...?
No

No, that's not all I was saying. The way you're portraying it, I accused you of not knowing or caring what the meaning was, and then you were offended and didn't want to show that you did (know what the word means).

When what happened was that you used the word in a way consistent with you not knowing or caring what it really means, and you were asked a polite question, and you refused to answer it. You then latched onto my statement that (in my opinion) you don't know or care whether you're using it accurately as a way to avoid answering the question.

To summarize all that as me merely saying you have something to hide is a bit dishonest, don't you think?

mickstinks OMG! The Jesus Lawyer's name burn ftw!

Just ing your immaturity, so that you may see how stupid it looks, mockie.

I haven't fucked up, as far as I can see. Then you're just not looking hard enough. Till next time then, thxbai

You could definitely prove that I fucked up. But you won't.

Because you're a small, moral coward who can't get over pedantic bullshit and his ego and respond to a simple, polite request.

[seebs]

Keep in mind that mick doesn't seem to model other peoples' internal state very well. He seems to assume that they all secretly agree with him, because he's right, and if they say otherwise they're lying.

[mickthinks]

Originally Posted by erimir

No, that's not all I was saying.

Okay, but that's a switch. If it were one of the things you were saying, then the truthful answer to my question "You're suggesting that I must have something to hide?" would be "Yes". No?



Mick
... parrotting your immaturity... OMG erimir's immaturity is a BURN!

[Brimshack]

Mick, do you have Autism, Asperger's, ASD?

[chunksmediocrites]

Whew! This thread be dusty as fuck, y'all.

Today is World Autism Awareness Day.

Hey I wanted to tell you about the Autism Self-Advocacy Network, (ASAN).

There's an important movement among people with autism to take the reins of control from parent and caregiver societies, that are often perhaps well-meaning but fucked up as people with autism are viewed as by some parents or caregiving systems as things to manage, like pets; and autism is still, by some parents, seen as a thing to cure (Autism Speaks puzzle piece insignia, implying that something's missing...)

This is in my mind the beginning of an important civil rights struggle for people with Autism and for non-neurotypicals generally; it is far past time to press society over the warehousing/ imprisonment/ torture/ enslavement/ neglect/ animal-thing status that many people with autism have endured or died from, and are still suffering and dying from today.

A lot of teens and adults with autism are pressing for the right to 'stim'- a movement or sound that is calming and an emotional release; sometimes seen as hand-flapping, pacing, twirling, spinning; instead of being trained/ forced to suppress and "pass" for NT.

Like most neurotypical or allistic people, I rarely thought about Autism until our son was diagnosed. It didn't help that I grew up the way a lot of neurotypicals did- people with autism who couldn't pass for NT were shunted away.

I have a lot of opinions and experiences from the parenting side in interacting with schools, services, other parents, etc on behalf of our son; but the point is it is time for autistic people to speak for themselves, and time for NT people like me to listen. So that of course means I'll say two more things really fast.

This article was also very interesting and I appreciated it for helping me better understand the aspects of ABA Therapy that people with autism experience and say must be replaced or ended.

Here's a channel that's interesting as well, and a video from 2014 where the Tuber describes stimming:

Ask an Autistic #1 - What is Stimming? - YouTube

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

This article was also very interesting and I appreciated it for helping me better understand the aspects of ABA Therapy that people with autism experience and say must be replaced or ended.

Wow, some of the stuff in those ABA videos is bizarre. What's the point of all the screaming and manhandling those kids, and why are they calling those 'rewards'?

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by lisarea

Wow, some of the stuff in those ABA videos is bizarre. What's the point of all the screaming and manhandling those kids, and why are they calling those 'rewards'?

A lot of the early childhood ABA therapy I'm seeing now for the first time; our son wasn't diagnosed with ASD until he was 11, while ASD is commonly screened for/ diagnosed early- ages 2-5. So I don't know for sure about the heavy physical contact but I think it is desensitization to touch/socialization training? And as to why that would be a reward to a person with autism I'm also not sure.

A lot of NT parents like myself barely know how to be a nominally passable NT child's parent, let alone understand or comprehend the needs of their NNT child. And that's super depressing, when you don't know how to provide/ assist/ support the development of your child. (note: it's still not about the NT parents' journey!) ABA gives a lot of parents hope that their child may have some semblance of self-governance, or at least as much as they are able to take on. This is mostly because ABA actually is much more focused on clinical benchmarks and determining/ reassessing the effectiveness of treatment regularly, one thing that distinguished it from some of the less savory and definitely less quantifiable treatments out there.

Early childhood ABA focuses on super basics, depending on where the child is at on the spectrum: wiping yourself after using the bathroom; washing hands, using utensils, personal hygiene, sitting in a chair, pointing at what you want; verbalizing for what you want; and always emphasizing communication: here's how you identify your emotions and needs. Here's how to tell others what you need. Here's how you gain access.

I will say that our limited NT parent-viewpoint anecdotal experience is: our son went from being in a special education classroom that was not autism-focused and spent 95% of his school day in the classroom, other than recess; semi-regular melt-downs and attempts/ successful classroom or school elopements; behind in class and not engaged, to placement in an autism-focused classroom where he went to being 75% mainstreamed (i.e. outside of the special ed classroom- mainstreaming is important in that it provides visibility, awareness, larger peer groups, and some level of integration into society) in a few days and 90% mainstreamed within a week. What was the difference? The special education teacher had 10 years of ABA experience.
Our observation and participation in ABA therapy sessions at home- we started with three, three-hour sessions weekly, from 4:30PM to 7:30PM; and dropped down to two three-hour sessions after the first year. ABA was important from our perspective in helping us reach a place where our son is more self-sufficient and better able to self-advocate: here's how to identify and ask for what you need. Here's how to make a list and prioritize. Here's how to complete tasks.

Here's the other part of this issue, though: ABA therapy can be provided by companies and individuals who are untrained, and/ or are also rigid, authoritarian, controlling. Bad at their job or confused about what the goals of the job are or just treating people who are autistic as a job. Treating children (mostly) like data sets, which has a positive of not imposing values and being effective (as defined by the NT society/ parents), and a negative of being lacking in the warmer acknowledgements of human-ness.

There's a subset (I think) of ABA providers that basically see this as a strange mixture of success and an acceptable cost- forcing people to submit to the indignities of training NNT kids into NT behavior patterns so that they can have as a result more autonomy over their life, more self-advocacy, more access and independence; they can choose to eschew the training and not spend the effort to pass themselves. In turn NNTs now have enough independence to tell ABA to fuck off; but it's not a one-to-one comparison- ABA doesn't work for some ASD kids and it isn't clear why it works for one and not another; it's also not the only therapy out there but I am not sure what else is considered to be sum positive and verifiable therapies and majority accepted by the ASD community. There's still an unsettling feeling of the same "ideals" being professed in, "civilizing the noble savage", where all other cultures submit to domination; but I don't know that ASD is a culture, either. Maybe just a shit metaphor on my part.

My hope is that NNTs are a large part of the committees and feedback for reforming existing treatments and improving or replacing flawed treatments.

[lisarea]

Whatever it is you guys are doing is the right thing to do. Clearly, he's not an easy kid, but he seems much better adjusted than a lot of kids who are. And that's because of you guys. Whatever influence ABA had on that was a good one, and I don't fully understand everything they're doing, but it's obvious that whatever techniques worked for him really did work for him, probably because he's got you guys looking out for him. He doesn't seem afraid the way those kids in the videos there do at all, and he's the luckiest guy in the world to have you as parents. I don't see an issue with the parents taking their daughter to the store, either. Parents of kids like that have to teach them the skills they need to get around, even when it's painful and difficult for everyone. It's those therapists, teachers, or whatever they are, with their confident, one size fits all approach that makes me want to call the cops. And I totally did, watching that video. Especially on that woman in the black shirt and the gray shorts. I don't like her at all.

I was confused about what was going on with those videos. I mean, they're grabbing and physically manipulating those really little kids for no good reason, constantly slapping them around and pushing their arms down when the kids aren't doing anything wrong. What are they teaching them? It's not OK for you to do what you want to with your own body, even if you don't intrude on someone else's space, but it's perfectly acceptable for someone to grab you and move you around if they don't like what you're doing? I kept wanting some giant person, proportionally as big to them as they are to those little kids, to come out and grab THEIR hands and move them to into a more appropriate position, then yell really loud and make an aggressive dive right the fuck at their midsection and see how they respond.

And I was thinking maybe there's a back story. Maybe this is something appropriate for these specific kids, but then it's all the exact same thing with every one. What are the odds? Look at the little buddy starting at about 6:17 in the first video.

ABA Autism Training - Chapter 1 - The Discrete Trial - YouTube

Again, I don't know the back story here, but he sure looks like he's scared. You can practically see him pleading for someone to intervene, but nobody does. That kid just seems to know that the only way to make it stop is to go along until it's over.