"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."

[Sweetie]

1. It's more an issue now than it has been in the past. Child pornography wasn't even specifically illegal in the US until 1982 or something.

Have we improved in society, and protected our children better by making it illegal? I'm not sure if you see that as a good or bad thing.

2. It used to be considered a 'family matter' in many circles, and is far less so now.

It also used to be ignored I think, and children weren't getting the help they needed, something that the families even of today, cannot provide.

This is compounded by the very divided nature of (at least) American society up until recent decades. So, a sheltered suburban child of the 50s may have been far more unaware of what was going on outside his or her city limits than a sheltered suburban child today. In some rural communities, father-daughter incest was common. For example, in some families, if the mother died, the eldest daughter was expected to assume her mother's duties in the bedroom as well as the kitchen, and nobody did anything about it.

That's terrible. However, I do get the impression even though there are always exceptions, and there is always good and bad, but I think people had a stricter moral code. Society just did. Good and bad went with that, but I think laxer morals means more sexual liscentiousness, which means that people are more exposed to more extreme things of a sexual nature and people may be more likely to act on them in this day and age. Before I think it occured less, but was kept quiet. I don't have an substantiation for that, I've never looked for some, just my impression at present.

3. Just in general terms, people talk about sex more now than they did in the past, and there are few taboo subjects really left for general discussion.

I do find it interesting how we've worked out this newfound horror at 'pedophilia,' as it implies any sex with a minor, in context of the cultural and probably biological standard of young women being universally desirable. There's very little gray area, it seems. Because of the laws and the broad disapproval of pedophilia, it's considered perverted and criminal for a grown man to be attracted to a girl two days short of her 18th birthday, but 48 hours later, she's up for grabs, and it's generally considered A-OK for vile old men to publically and openly lust after her.

I don't think it's criminal where I live. 16 is the cut-off for statuatory rape.

It's necessary for laws to draw what seem like arbitrary lines, but it's just interesting to see how public perceptions have fallen so closely in line with the legal definitions like that.

I think if a girl hits puberty at 13, by 15 and 16 she is mentally ready to makr some responsible and adult sexual choices. I think 13 year olds are way, way more likely to have unprotected sex, way, way less ready to deal with the emotional and physical consequences related to sexual activity. The backlash from being used, pregnancy, etc.

I remember being about 11 when men started coming on to me in various ways. (This was about 30 years ago, AKA 'in ye olden times' for lack of a better font.) There was something of a transition period at first, when I'd see some man approach me--anywhere from late teens on up through the 40 to 105 demographic (that was one inclusive age category to me at the time)--and, as they got close enough to discern how young I really was, a lot of them woul turn heel. But by the time I was about 13, just about nobody turned around anymore. And it was very, very common, even when I was at the lower end of that age range. Men are attracted to young girls for some reason. I thought it was gross. Old men just turned my stomach, and I even yelled at them sometimes and told them so. But gross as it is, I didn't really see it as pedophilia. I saw it as a little fucked up, and I see it as even more fucked up now, but I wouldn't call it pedophilia. It's just stupid, obnoxious, presumptuous old fucks acting gross.

-fuckin dirty old men still hit on me, it is gross.

Yeah, but are 20 year olds really mentally women, either? In a lot of cases, I don't think so.

-I think they are mature enough to make more informed choices and take responsibility for the consequences. Yes, I think there is a big difference in maturity from a 13 year old to a 20 year old. One is an adult who hasn't had the experiences to grow from to become an official woman, that's usually at 25 or so I hear, the other is seven years of development off.

I just don't think you can draw some arbitrary post-puberty line at which it's acceptable. I think it's only slightly less gross when middle-aged men pursue 19 year old girls than it is when they pursue 17 year old girls.

-I think there needs to be a line, and that you can draw one.

[viscousmemories]

I think your opinion is reasonable, Sweetie, and frankly I think it would have been perfectly acceptable to express your disapproval with the metaphor in that thread. I suppose you didn't to avoid de-railing it. Anyway I agree that while the phrasing technically referred to an older teen, the combination of the words petite, teenage, girl, and puberty evoked an image of a much younger girl. Still while his choice of words startled me a bit, I just interpreted his meaning as "tasted as good as eating forbidden fruit" and moved on. Which isn't to say I don't understand or appreciate your and other's disapproval, but that's why I didn't experience or express any great discomfort of my own.

I do wonder, though, if the answer to the question "should it be socially acceptable to make such comments?" serves any purpose. Which is to say it seems to me that the measure of a things social acceptability is the people's response to it. I'm inclined to say if most people don't express any outrage then the thing probably isn't considered socially unacceptable. But again I don't think that's any reason not to put it under the microscope, so I appreciate your having brought it up.

[Sweetie]

And what would that be?

Maybe more about childhood development and psychology? How to raise strong and independent women instead of ones that get to be married off. Maybe that 13 is too young and not good for a woman to be married and pregnant. It is actually bad for a child, or so I've heard, in that their bodies haven't finished solidifying as their adult bodies, even if they have reached puberty by that age, obviously, if they are getting pregnant.

Slavery wasn't acceptable 100 years ago, not anywhere in the modern world anyway, and U.S. women gained suffrage in 1920, beating most of the rest of the world in that regard, many by quite a few years, but neither on of these has anything at all to do with post pubescent teens and the men that lust after them.

It has something to do with what was socially acceptable back then and what is now. What was socially acceptable back then isn't necessarily what is good in the sense of good and healthy for the 13 year olds involved.

And yet, to my unaddressed point, we expect them to stay a child even longer.

I understand what you are saying in that back then they were devloping later and married (considered marriageable/adults) earlier, and now they are developing earlier and are marrying later. You are implying however, that that was fine, and in this day and age we are perhaps doing something wrong in expecting them to be sexually active later.

What I am saying is that I reject the former thoughts, I don't think they are good. No, I don't think it's right for a child to marry when she isn't even a woman yet, I think that was wrong of the people of the past to do that to children, and society to pressure them that way.

No, but I know one 23 year old young woman in my own family that isn't mentally a woman either. I know one that is 29 and isn't a woman mentally. I would say that some 13 year olds are lot closer to mental maturity than many that are quite older than that. It is very difficult to nail down a specific age standard because of that.

I'm not going to argue the point if you think that 23 and 29 year olds aren't more mentally ready for sex and marriage than 13 year olds. I just flat out think that's ridiculous and my experience dictates that I wasn't ready to make an informed and responsible choice, and that what I did encounter at that age, hurt me mentally and emotionally.

Why is that the case?

Because if most adults are spoiled brats, why not raise their children that way? However, to counter your point, their lack of responsibility coupled with their early development does not show that they are then ready for what adults are ready for, what it indicates is that they are physically ready but not mentally ready. So the situations have reversed. In the past they may not have been physically mature, but were more mentally mature. In the present they are physically mature, but not mentally mature. I was both physically and mentally mature at age 13, but still not ready for some of the pressures and responsibilities of adulthood such as an active sex life.

I'm sure you do the very best you can in that regard. Some of us have coddled them a bit, only to regret it later. That goes to my point, coddling them and treating them like they're children only delays childhood. In my grandparent's day, children were expected to be doing farm work after about age 8. I think making them take that sort of responsibility led to earlier mental maturity.

I wrote the above before I read this, so I think we agree.

Again, we don't typically allow them to get into those situations until they're older and more mentally mature, yet we still have the problem of marriages not lasting. Doesn't say much for age being an indication of mental maturity, does it?

If you get married thinking there's always divorce if it doesn't work out and as soon as things start getting difficult, then divorce it is. That is a product of our society.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I think your opinion is reasonable, Sweetie, and frankly I think it would have been perfectly acceptable to express your disapproval with the metaphor in that thread. I suppose you didn't to avoid de-railing it.

Right, I didn't want to derail a food thread with a discussion of pedophilia.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

Have we improved in society, and protected our children better by making it illegal? I'm not sure if you see that as a good or bad thing.

Oh, I definitely see it as a good thing. I mean, the laws against kiddie porn and not kiddie porn itself.

I just get a little tired of self-righteous old people who say things like, "We never heard about child pornography when I was young" as a way of casting the 1950s as some kind of pinnacle of human achievement.

I like to remind them that the reason they never heard about it is because it was legal.

That's terrible. However, I do get the impression even though there are always exceptions, and there is always good and bad, but I think people had a stricter moral code. Society just did. Good and bad went with that, but I think laxer morals means more sexual liscentiousness, which means that people are more exposed to more extreme things of a sexual nature and people may be more likely to act on them in this day and age. Before I think it occured less, but was kept quiet. I don't have an substantiation for that, I've never looked for some, just my impression at present.

That's not the kind of thing we'll ever see reliable data on, regardless. The fact that the culture has changed so significantly in, say, the past fifty or so years means affects what data is available.

I will concur that kiddie porn and the like are more readily available now then they were then, simply because pornography delivery technology has advanced so far.

And I would argue about morality. Yes, there were stricter standards for public behavior once upon a time, but the standards and criteria for moral behavior were very different from what they are now. Wife-beating was really A-OK until fairly recently, racism was the norm, and I distinctly remember the big controversy over whether marital rape was even possible. This must've been in the 70s, at least, because I was arguing about it.

Sex is a much more public subject now than it was then, so most people probably have more information about others' sexual behaviors than they did in the past, and people who have lived through this change in attitudes would understandably get the impression that 'deviant' sexual behaviors are on the rise. I'm just not entirely sure that the actual bad type of sexual behaviors are all that more common now than they used to be.

While, on the one hand, people are probably more likely to be able to get kiddie porn, and that may serve to legitimize it somewhat; on the other hand, little children are far more likely to know that this behavior is unacceptable, and to have been taught how to resist it. They're also probably more likely to tell someone about it, and that someone is more likely to do something about it once the kid does tell.

I don't think it's criminal where I live. 16 is the cut-off for statuatory rape.

Yeah, the state laws differ pretty significantly, and they're generally at least a little nuanced in terms of recognizing age differences and such. I was thinking in terms of porn and the like in that example.

-I think there needs to be a line, and that you can draw one.

There does need to be a line legally, because the law can't really make individual judgments, except in practice somewhat.

But I don't see a huge black and white difference between one randomly selected 17 year old vs. a randomly selected 18 year old.

I see more grey areas there. I would have less of a problem with a 25 year old looking at naked pictures of a 17 year old than I do with a 50 year old looking at naked pictures of an 18 year old. (I've intentionally made it 'looking at naked pictures of' because, as I understand it, there is a relatively clear legal line there.)

I'm not saying the law isn't worthwhile. I'm saying that, personally, it doesn't automatically become acceptable after some etched in stone cutoff point.

Mostly, I'm saying that I think it's strange that more people don't think it's weird and kind of gross for 50 year old men to pursue teenaged girls sexually, regardless of legality.

[Dingfod]

I did not mean to imply that it was fine for them to marry at 14 back when. But, because of earlier maturation and later adulthood, I think we might have unrealistic expectations about teenagers and those expectations, or the lack of, are one of the problems we have in modern society.

What I am saying is that I reject the former thoughts, I don't think they are good. No, I don't think it's right for a child to marry when she isn't even a woman yet, I think that was wrong of the people of the past to do that to children, and society to pressure them that way.

Many states allow 16 year olds to get married, some even as young as 14. Are they wrong? Maybe, but what I'm saying is, you have to take it on a case-by-case basis because they're not all the same. Some may never be mature enough to have a decent long-lasting relationship and some may at a fairly early age. So, why draw an arbitrary line?

I'm not going to argue the point if you think that 23 and 29 year olds aren't more mentally ready for sex and marriage than 13 year olds. I just flat out think that's ridiculous and my experience dictates that I wasn't ready to make an informed and responsible choice, and that what I did encounter at that age, hurt me mentally and emotionally.

I'm saying that some 23 and 29 year olds are not mentally mature, many if not most 20 year olds are not and most, but not all, 14 (I didn't use 13) year olds are not. However, I think that some 14 year olds are more mentally mature than some 23 or 29 year olds. Do you disagree? We have some teenagers at IIDB, maybe even here at F-F, that are much more mature than some 49 year olds. Fact.

Brought to you by the DRD

Because if most adults are spoiled brats, why not raise their children that way?

I represent that remark. But, how did I get that way? My parents placed quite a lot of responsibility on me at a fairly early age and I met that responsibility head on. I was pretty much independent mentally and fiscally by age 17 thanks to their rearing.

However, to counter your point, their lack of responsibility coupled with their early development does not show that they are then ready for what adults are ready for, what it indicates is that they are physically ready but not mentally ready.

Now we're getting somewhere. I think the lack of responsibility of teens and young adults today tells more about parenting and societal expectations than it does of teenage mental maturity. People, including teenagers, tend to live up to or down to expectations. So, if we expect them to remain children up to that magical age of 17, 18, 19, 21, 24, or 25* we should expect they will meet that expectation. But, if they don't, what then? Those expectations I just mentioned are the ones that may be unrealistic. Ever wonder why most teens are rebellious? That's them trying to express their independence. Ever wonder why so many parents of teenagers have fights with their teenagers? That's them trying to keep the teenager a child. Just my opinion, of course.

*Various age milestones: NC-17 movie age, voting age, tobacco purchase age, drinking age, handgun purchase age, and insurance discount age.

So the situations have reversed. In the past they may not have been physically mature, but were more mentally mature. In the present they are physically mature, but not mentally mature. I was both physically and mentally mature at age 13, but still not ready for some of the pressures and responsibilities of adulthood such as an active sex life.

Then you weren't really mentally mature, were you?

If you get married thinking there's always divorce if it doesn't work out and as soon as things start getting difficult, then divorce it is. That is a product of our society.

Which hasn't gotten one bit better by making them wait until they're older.

[Beth]

I tend to agree with Lisa that it seems pedophilia might be on the decline, maybe not the urges, but the actual acting out on those urges. It could be because it is less socially accepted, that children are those who possess a bill of rights instead of being mere property of adults to be used a reared at the whim of an adult. I honestly think my kids are safer from predatory family members than I was.

Now, if a man groped my daughter or pinned her or spoke obscenely to her, the police just might do something about it. If a shriner in a country parade made suggestions similar to the ones I received till I was 18, she could possibly raise a stink about it, possibly sue for sexual harrassment, or make a misconduct claim to the media?...

I am more concerned about predatory strangers getting at my kids than those we know. My kids are open with me because I spoke about appropriate sexual touches and behaviors since they were old enough to start talking and I think I have drilled into them that they must always tell me, even if it supposed to be a secret, and I have always carefully screened who they visit or come in contact with, as far as adults go.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

-Does anybody else see problems with comments like these? I guess I see that girls just out of puberty are ten to thirteen years old. Petite, small, young and tight is what is implied. Teenaged is specified. Do thirteen year olds qualify as teenagers?

What kind of weird alien women do you have on your planet? I was always under the impression and the pratical experience that "just out of puberty" meant around the 14-16 age. I hit puberty around 10-11 and didn't stop properly until I was 13-14. By that time I could pass as an 18 year old because of both physical and mental maturity. It wasn't a blessing though...

Maybe you should ask Abe to explain himself. Perhaps he was just using a turn of phrase when remembering his own teenage experiences and first-time?

Dirty old men will always be dirty old men. My mother is 55 and still gets hit on in really vulgar ways by dirty old 60 year olds.

And when we say "paedophillia is on the decline", are talking about only the US again, or the whole world? Because the rising rates of child-porn coming out of Russia and China tend to speak differently if you step outside your borders.

[Beth]

I am using a more isolationist speak when I am speaking of pedophillia is on the decline. I do realize that it is much worse in the world. I have started many threads in another board on this heart wrenching subject. Sometimes just wanting to get people to understand the crisis overwhelms me, so I step back and simply look at the world through an isolationist box, once again.

[Dingfod]

Which, as I'm sure you know, is pretty darn rare, much more rare than being molested or raped by a trusted family member, even today.

My kids are open with me because I spoke about appropriate sexual touches and behaviors since they were old enough to start talking and I think I have drilled into them that they must always tell me, even if it supposed to be a secret, and I have always carefully screened who they visit or come in contact with, as far as adults go.

Bravo, Beth! You're a good mother.

[Dingfod]

Why is a dirty old man worse than a dirty young man? Isn't it ageism and lookism to discriminate on the basis of age or wrinkles (or paunch)?

[Beth]

[QUOTE=warrenly]

Which, as I'm sure you know, is pretty darn rare, much more rare than being molested or raped by a trusted family member, even today.

Yes I know. I am rather cautious about this. But the stranger thing, well, you know, it presents a more frightening image simply because of the unknown person. But I am well aware that a child is more likely to be sexually abused, kidnapped, or murdered by someone they know.

Bravo, Beth! You're a good mother.

Thank you. I don't always feel it, but I try.

[Sweetie]

What kind of weird alien women do you have on your planet? I was always under the impression and the pratical experience that "just out of puberty" meant around the 14-16 age. I hit puberty around 10-11 and didn't stop properly until I was 13-14. By that time I could pass as an 18 year old because of both physical and mental maturity. It wasn't a blessing though...

-I still can pass for an eighteen year old and often people are suprised when I say I'm nearly ten years older than that, lol which means that when I was 13, I looked young so the men who hit on me knew I was that young.

No, I can't imagine it was a blessing for you though. Mature body but not ready to deal with all that came with that?

Maybe you should ask Abe to explain himself. Perhaps he was just using a turn of phrase when remembering his own teenage experiences and first-time?

-He's free to explain himself if he feels like it. I left the door open and offered my definitions and why it bothered me. His definitions may indeed be different.

And when we say "paedophillia is on the decline"

-I didn't.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Why is a dirty old man worse than a dirty young man? Isn't it ageism and lookism to discriminate on the basis of age or wrinkles (or paunch)?

-Haha. Let's just say a fifteen year old's tongue in your mouth and hand on your breast is alot better at 14 then an old man's tongue in your mouth and hand on your breast. And when I say old, I mean like late 60's in my case. *gag* That's just wrong.

Now, if I was 50, sounds good that he's still frisky and can still get it up, lol.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Adora

And when we say "paedophillia is on the decline", are talking about only the US again, or the whole world? Because the rising rates of child-porn coming out of Russia and China tend to speak differently if you step outside your borders.

I don't think you can say whether pedophilia itself is declining or expanding or what. You will never find reliable data on that subject.

As far as individual incidents, there is probably more child pornography available now than there has been in the past, but that would likely apply to all types of porn, and is at least in part because of improved delivery methods and technology. You don't need a darkroom anymore. There are any number of reasons for an increase in child porn coming out of China or Russia, of which an increase in child exploitation is just one possibility. Are people in China and Russia really sexually abusing children more often, or are they taking more pictures of it now? Are there really more pictures now, or is the distribution of those pictures just wider and more public than it was before?

As far as I'm aware, pedophilia has only been recognized as a disorder for about a hundred years. But China has a very long history of child marriage, for example. I'm not quite as sure about Russia, but I'd be surprised if the situation were wildly different there than it is pretty much everywhere else. How long have they had laws against sex with children? How long has pedophilia been considered really abberant? And why would anyone keep records of perfectly legal and common behaviors?

My point being that this stuff has been happening for a very long time, but people have only really been paying attention to it in recent years.

As such, any data you see is likely to be skewed toward making pedophilia/child porn/child rape appear to be a recent phenomenon. It is not. It is the criminalization and public discussion of the subjects that's recent.

I won't argue that there may be a slight upsurge in incidents of situational pedophilia as a result of the influence of pornography or something, but if you look at the big picture, I would argue that the situation is probably improving overall.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Why is a dirty old man worse than a dirty young man? Isn't it ageism and lookism to discriminate on the basis of age or wrinkles (or paunch)?

EWWW! Old man post! OLD MAN POST!

GROSS!!!!

[beyelzu]

on the subject of puberty, early puberty in the western world is the product of having a high energy balance. Lots of calories consumed compared to amount of exercise.

from http://viradium.mpl.ird.fr/cepm/Site...001HumBiol.pdf

A closer examination of the data revealed that
among several variables reflecting living conditions, the factors best explaining
the variation in age at menarche were adult illiteracy rate and vegetable
calorie consumption. Because adult illiteracy rate has some correlation with
the age at which children are involved in physical activities that can be detrimental
in terms of energy expenditure, our results suggest that age at menarche
reflects more a trend in energy balance than merely nutritional status.

in short chicks bleed earlier than they used to cuz they eat more in relation to the amount they exercise.


that is all.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by lisarea

EWWW! Old man post! OLD MAN POST!

GROSS!!!!

Look here, woman. I could take you. I could. Really, I could. I think.

[Adora]

Originally Posted by lisarea

I won't argue that there may be a slight upsurge in incidents of situational pedophilia as a result of the influence of pornography...

Really? I wouldn't. I was simply referring to the incidence of actual child-porn now becoming an industry for crime syndicates in these parts of the world, which I am told, was not as big as industry 70 years ago when the society was under certain social rule. *shrugs*

Apparently, certain hormones used in hair-straightening products also bring on puberty earlier.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Adora

What kind of weird alien women do you have on your planet? I was always under the impression and the pratical experience that "just out of puberty" meant around the 14-16 age. I hit puberty around 10-11 and didn't stop properly until I was 13-14. By that time I could pass as an 18 year old because of both physical and mental maturity. It wasn't a blessing though...

Maybe you should ask Abe to explain himself. Perhaps he was just using a turn of phrase when remembering his own teenage experiences and first-time?

Dirty old men will always be dirty old men. My mother is 55 and still gets hit on in really vulgar ways by dirty old 60 year olds.

And when we say "paedophillia is on the decline", are talking about only the US again, or the whole world? Because the rising rates of child-porn coming out of Russia and China tend to speak differently if you step outside your borders.

please prove that there are rising rates of child porn coming out of russia and china?

also any links on where I can download some* cuz nothin says lovin like russian child porn







*anyone who has a problem with the above fucked up joke is welcome to try to lecture me on the subject. I wont sit around and be vilified let aa has.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

*anyone who has a problem with the above fucked up joke is welcome to try to lecture me on the subject. I wont sit around and be vilified let aa has.

Remarkably, this very thread is supposed to be about the propriety of just such remarks.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Remarkably, this very thread is supposed to be about the propriety of just such remarks.

really???

[Ex-zombie]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

cuz nothin says lovin like russian child porn

That's a joke?
Can you explain it to me, cause I think I missed the punch line?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Ex-zombie

That's a joke?
Can you explain it to me, cause I think I missed the punch line?

lets see, I used the catch phrase of the pillsbury dough boy and ended with child porn which is ironic and unexpected, also I wasnt meant to be taken seriously.

furthermore, I was using joking in the loosest possible sense, as in fucking with, joking around, etc..

[Ex-zombie]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

lets see, I used the catch phrase of the pillsbury dough boy and ended with child porn which is ironic and unexpected, also I wasnt meant to be taken seriously.

furthermore, I was using joking in the loosest possible sense, as in fucking with, joking around, etc..

Thanks. I knew there was a joke in there. I just wasn't seeing it. I couldn't figure out where the phrase "nothing says lovin" was from.

Been a long day.