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  #26  
Old 01-10-2005, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Okay justaman, I think I see where our disconnect is here.

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Because emotion is logic, but necessarily biased. If we (and atheists usually are) are interesting being as objective as possible, we need to remove as much bias from our reasoning as possible. So following emotive logic is following something we should be avoiding if we want to believe what is most likely to be objectively true.

It simply violates our usual stance of being objective and not believing purely out of desire.
I am not an atheist because I am objective and logical (I am not); I am an atheist because the concept of deity makes no sense to me on any level. I operate mostly on intuition and feeling quite frankly. I think this difference in how we approach the world is causing my confusion.
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  #27  
Old 01-10-2005, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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Originally Posted by wade-w
Justaman, if nothing has any value, then why do you apparently value logic?
Because we cannot escape our need to decide. You are correct in that some kind of objective theoretical nihilism would in fact require us to do nothing, all action would be equally in 'error' in this context. But practicality requires us to act and we cannot act except in logic. (We are by definition logical entities, to deny this is to deny cause-and-effect in a way).

So it isn't a question of valuing logic so much as acting with the least possible amount of bias. It is not biased to behave logically, it is necessary.

David argues that it is equally necessary to behave emotionally and I haven't really been able to refute this challenge in any meaningful way so far. But I am convinced it should be possible, I just need to try a bit harder :P
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  #28  
Old 01-10-2005, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gould
What is the logical reason people should suicide?
It's not so much a 'logical reason' as all that is left over once emotion has been removed from the equation.

My difficulty is proving that we can remove emotion. But I do think this is possible. Buddhist practices etc would appear to indicate we can, for example.

Quote:
However, we still have no choice but to make a choice. Logic has failed us. Emotion is all we have to go on. And that is why suicide is an emotional decision.
I don't think logic ever fails us, precisely. We will always have different options because of the burden of living. If we could exist in some stasis where there was no pain vs pleasure paradigm constantly acting upon us, then perhaps, but of course this isn't the case.

Quote:
Now, in your play you posited the notion of a person who suicided not with any emotion but simply due to the logical conclusion that it did not matter either way. If nothing matters then suicide is not a bad decision in any sense - I agree with that. But there is still no logical reason to suicide. (There is also no logical reason not to suicide, of course.) So the person made an non-logical decision. It had to be such a decision. And the only thing we have apart from logic is emotion.
But then that was all I was trying to do with it, if you know what I mean. I never attempted to go the next step and say suicide is preferable, only that it is equivalent.

Did I tell you I wound up putting that on in a festival?? The adjudicator called it 'intelligent but self-indulgent' :irked: hehehe, it's probably fair enough. I realised some time after doing it that making the difficult conept of nihilism more difficult by making its advocate speak like that was a bit isolating for the audience :P We did get a couple of minor awards so that was swell. :yup:

The point is that it was only designed to show suicide is a legitimate option, not the preferable one.

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Hmmm. I do not think that that is possible. I do not think that we can choose such a thing without emotion. Indeed, I do not see how emotion can be removed from the decision making process. I guess you could introduce a randomiser of some sort - for example, ask yourself every day whether you will live or die and toss a coin that will activate a laser to kill you if it lands heads down. But the decision to set up such a machine would have to be taken emotionally in the first place.
I'm not really sure that it's quite as difficult as this. You only really need a moment of clarity, if you will. It's precisely the same as breaking an addiction. Your argument for not being able to get around emotion seems to me comparable with a smoker saying he could not get around the draw of the addiction. That is true, he will feel the pull but that doesn't mean he has to act accordingly. If he acknowledges the alternative option to the one he wants to be true, he can take it through sheer force of will. That is how I envision a nihilistic suicide.
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  #29  
Old 01-10-2005, 05:59 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

From what I know it's certainly possible to separate reason from emotion. Mental health professionals call it "isolation of affect", and it's an emotional defense mechanism symptomatic of numerous personality disorders that are commonly associated with suicide. So it seems like you're on the right track, justaman.

I can't imagine why, though... this seems kinda like intellectual masturbation to me. And I'm not saying that just 'cause it's a morbid line of thought. I'm all about the morbid. I just don't know what you hope to gain from it. I think people who effectively sever their intellect from their emotion are commonly referred to as sociopaths. :P
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  #30  
Old 01-10-2005, 06:08 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
From what I know it's certainly possible to separate reason from emotion. Mental health professionals call it "isolation of affect", and it's an emotional defense mechanism symptomatic of numerous personality disorders that are commonly associated with suicide. So it seems like you're on the right track, justaman.
I've always hoped I had some kind of personality disorder, but I'm pretty sure I'm mentally disease free :P Well apart from occasional bouts of fairly severe depression, but that seems to be par for the course for anyone with an I.Q. over 50 these days :D

Quote:
I can't imagine why, though... this seems kinda like intellectual masturbation to me. And I'm not saying that just 'cause it's a morbid line of thought. I'm all about the morbid. I just don't know what you hope to gain from it. I think people who effectively sever their intellect from their emotion are commonly referred to as sociopaths. :P
Well I mean really I'm accusing the entire world except me (and those few other nihilists, if I can even call myself one) of being deluded. It's sorta hardly surprising that I'm subject to being thought of in negative terms in that way.

Honestly, I really have pursued my own motivations. Is all this really because I just want to die and am trying to justify this desire with reason? I'm quite convinced it's not. I cannot help coming back to the realisation that it is never the wrong decision to suicide. That in itself is so completely at odds with everything people traditionally believe and yet it seems so obvious.

I've basically concluded that the reason I believe this and no one else does is because I can never stop deconstructing. That would be equivalent to your 'intellectual masturbation' thing - an observation which rocks, incidentally :D I must act for a reason and I must know what that reason is. I can never be satisfied with "Oh that's just the way it is, quit bitching".

For the record, I live like anyone else, I'm fairly normal, but I still think I'm wrong - by my standards - to do it.
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  #31  
Old 01-10-2005, 06:14 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
I am not an atheist because I am objective and logical (I am not); I am an atheist because the concept of deity makes no sense to me on any level. I operate mostly on intuition and feeling quite frankly. I think this difference in how we approach the world is causing my confusion.
Fair enough. I sort of doubt that you don't use logic when you dismiss a deity as making no sense, but of course I really don't know how you tick :P

To deny yourself as being logical is quite impossible, I think. Every human is logical, but most just happen to be irrational. A friend's father recently completed PhD thesis on that one - I didn't read it - and I tend to agree. In the context I'm talking about, logic is the method of evaluation. IF you see this THEN you will act in this way. You can't escape the way your brain works at the 'machine level' if you like. This is the realm of logic. People can be irrational, however, because the larger paradigms become out of kilter with observable reality, so while we are all logical, we all come to different conclusions.

So you really can't say you aren't logical, you have to be :yup:
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  #32  
Old 01-10-2005, 06:47 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

I'm not sure that the way you use the term "logic" is an accurate usage. What does it mean to be a "logical entity?"

Logic is the study of reasoning. Thus it is concerned with arguments. An argument is considered valid if the conclusion logically follows from the premises. An argument is called sound if it is both valid and the premises are true. If we accept the extreme relativism necessary for nihilism, then it becomes impossible to know if a given argument is in fact sound.

As far as I can tell, you have not addressed David's basic point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gould
What is the logical reason people should suicide?

My suspicion is that there is not one. In other words, if this question is put:

'Should I stay alive?' is there a difference between the answer 'Yes' and the answer 'No'? It seems to me that your argument is based on the fact that both answers are equivalent - there is no logical reason to pick one over the other.
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  #33  
Old 01-10-2005, 07:15 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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I sort of doubt that you don't use logic when you dismiss a deity as making no sense, but of course I really don't know how you tick
My disbelief came first based on the concepts being presented to me not feeling correct..."I don't believe because I don't believe" so to speak ;). Learning about and researching the logical arguments against deity came later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaman
To deny yourself as being logical is quite impossible, I think. Every human is logical, but most just happen to be irrational. A friend's father recently completed PhD thesis on that one - I didn't read it - and I tend to agree. In the context I'm talking about, logic is the method of evaluation. IF you see this THEN you will act in this way. You can't escape the way your brain works at the 'machine level' if you like. This is the realm of logic. People can be irrational, however, because the larger paradigms become out of kilter with observable reality, so while we are all logical, we all come to different conclusions.

So you really can't say you aren't logical, you have to be :yup:
Okay, fair enough. Let me put it this way then, I don't really spend any time asking myself "is this belief/action the logical one", nor have I ever studied logic. I don't think I am an irrational person either though, but whatever innate logic I have runs as a subroutine, using your machine analogy.
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  #34  
Old 01-10-2005, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by wade-w
I'm not sure that the way you use the term "logic" is an accurate usage. What does it mean to be a "logical entity?"
I am using a kinda funny definition of it.

Basically, I am using 'logic' as being synonymous for cause-and-effect within the neural structures of our brains.

Just like computer 'logic' with IF/THEN/ELSE gates, etc.

Quote:
Logic is the study of reasoning. Thus it is concerned with arguments. An argument is considered valid if the conclusion logically follows from the premises. An argument is called sound if it is both valid and the premises are true. If we accept the extreme relativism necessary for nihilism, then it becomes impossible to know if a given argument is in fact sound.
Well nihilism is, in fact, itself subject to post-modern deconstruction since it is certainly saying that there is a universal 'truth' which post-modernism says cannot exist.

Regardless, I think of nihilism as more of a practical philosophy of what humans should do. In all honesty, it makes no commentary on Life, the Universe and Everything, only about our role in it. But that happens to be the only role that matters, I'd argue.

Quote:
As far as I can tell, you have not addressed David's basic point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gould
What is the logical reason people should suicide?

My suspicion is that there is not one. In other words, if this question is put:

'Should I stay alive?' is there a difference between the answer 'Yes' and the answer 'No'? It seems to me that your argument is based on the fact that both answers are equivalent - there is no logical reason to pick one over the other.
As I said to him, one doesn't really approach nihilism in this manner. It's inductive, in a way, in that nihilism is what is left after you remove emotion. It's not something you add to your present worldview.

I am beating around the bush a bit regarding David's question though.

In practice there will always be a difference between answering 'yes' and 'no' when asking whether you should continue to live. To suggest there might not be assumes a state where sensations do not impact upon us, when clearly no such state really exists. So if I say 'no' I acheive that state of non-existence I will acheive in 50 years time anyway. If I say 'yes' I am acheiving a state with a certain value on the scale of pain vs pleasure.

My argument is that pain is inescapable. Pleasure isn't. Pain is ultimately what makes it logical to suicide. This is because when you are in pain you have two options (let's say):

A: stay alive and feel better, then do X, then do X, then do X, then die.

B: die.

Choosing B is more logical, because it achieve the ultimate end more effectively. You remove the pain and acheive your inevitable state.

An important point that must be remembered is that all actions are erased at death. This doesn't mean they stop, it means they never happened in your estimation. That is because you have no chance for reflection in death. There is no future, present or past. Ergo, your past does not exist. It never happened.

I think it is most logical to acknowledge this and hasten it's arrival, since this is where you arrive anyway.

so

A: [action]+[action]+[action]+[action]+[action]+[action]=death

B: death

Because death removes past:

A = non-existence
B = non-existence

Both chains are identical, it is only a matter of how long you personally prolong this inescapable (non) reality.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2005, 07:36 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
My disbelief came first based on the concepts being presented to me not feeling correct..."I don't believe because I don't believe" so to speak ;). Learning about and researching the logical arguments against deity came later.
Ok, but remember I believe emotive logic is still logic, it just has a greater potential for bias. I do see the distinction you're making, however. :)

Quote:
Okay, fair enough. Let me put it this way then, I don't really spend any time asking myself "is this belief/action the logical one", nor have I ever studied logic. I don't think I am an irrational person either though, but whatever innate logic I have runs as a subroutine, using your machine analogy.
This is a good way of conceptualizing it, I think. But remember that rationality is subjective, of course. By my standards you are irrational, but then by your standards, I'm just as (if not more so) irrational. Logic, however, is objective and cannot be violated.

We're sort of quibbling here, but I think it's important that people do realise that they believe what they do because of logic. I think it is a common error to assumet that because you are an emotional person you are necessarily less logical. This isn't true, and that's important. It says much about the belief in the supernatural, for instance.
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  #36  
Old 01-10-2005, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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Choosing B is more logical, because it achieve the ultimate end more effectively. You remove the pain and acheive your inevitable state.
You seem to be valuing efficiency and effectiveness over pleasure, Justaman. Why?

Justaman...if I told you someone was completely rational, and believed X, Y and Z - say, that a train departed to London at 9.30am - you do not have enough information to deduce what the main might do.

If, on the other hand, I told you that that same man desired to go to London, and believed the train would depart for London at 9.30 am...now you can make a good guess at what he might do.

Do you see how your denial that we need anything else than logic to decide what to do ultimately fails?
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  #37  
Old 01-10-2005, 08:03 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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Originally Posted by Dragar
You seem to be valuing efficiency and effectiveness over pleasure, Justaman. Why?
It is the nature of logic. I believe all humans follow the path of least resistance, just as water must always collect in the lowest part of the bowl.

Quote:
Justaman...if I told you someone was completely rational, and believed X, Y and Z - say, that a train departed to London at 9.30am - you do not have enough information to deduce what the main might do.

If, on the other hand, I told you that that same man desired to go to London, and believed the train would depart for London at 9.30 am...now you can make a good guess at what he might do.

Do you see how you're denial that we need anything else than logic to decide what to do ultimately fails?
How is your above analogy not logical? You simply introduce extra elements. Saying 'desire' doesn't make it any less of a logical decision, since desires operate logically also. The difference is when you have a desire with no logical basis, which is when you arrive at a "I do it because I do it" anomoly. It's still logical, but now it has become irrational.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible for a human to behave illogically.
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  #38  
Old 01-10-2005, 11:56 AM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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It is the nature of logic. I believe all humans follow the path of least resistance, just as water must always collect in the lowest part of the bowl.
Why would I do this? Earlier you said there was no difference between the two paths ("Both chains are identical, it is only a matter of how long you personally prolong this inescapable (non) reality"), and now you are saying there is a difference which results in us doing one over the other...make up your mind! ;)

Quote:
How is your above analogy not logical? You simply introduce extra elements. Saying 'desire' doesn't make it any less of a logical decision, since desires operate logically also. The difference is when you have a desire with no logical basis, which is when you arrive at a "I do it because I do it" anomoly. It's still logical, but now it has become irrational.

Honestly, I don't think it is possible for a human to behave illogically.
But this 'I do it because I do it' anomaly is because you've reached rock bottom for analysing human behaviour in terms of a subject. Instead, you have to look at neuroscience and evolution, or the laws of physics, or whatever. Then you can say, "Well, I do this because my d-fibres were firing, or because I evolved to desire X, or because if we solve the Shrödinger equation for my brain we find that..."

We find the same problem with, for instance, gravity. Why does mass attract mass? Well, we answer by pointing to general relativity. "Mass distorts spacetime," we explain.

Well, why does mass distort spacetime? "Mass distorts spacetime because that's what mass does!" Same anomaly.

You cannot deduce how reality operates from logic alone.
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  #39  
Old 01-10-2005, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

I'd just like to pipe up a moment to say that I very much enjoyed Sartre's No Exit and I bet you would too, Shea. It's a short little play and not at all dense or stultifying in any way. As presentations of misanthropy and hopelessness go, it's downright fun.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

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Originally Posted by livius drusus
I'd just like to pipe up a moment to say that I very much enjoyed Sartre's No Exit and I bet you would too, Shea. It's a short little play and not at all dense or stultifying in any way. As presentations of misanthropy and hopelessness go, it's downright fun.

Unngghh... trying... to open... mind....



Okay, sure. But I can't forgive him for Being and Nothingness.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:10 PM
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* livius drusus gently pats Clutch\'s sweated brow

There, there... Nobody will ever forgive him for Being and Nothingness.
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  #42  
Old 01-10-2005, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Well now I know why I liked existential fiction when I found it. I only read the little books! No Exit by Sartre, Notes from Underground by Dostoevsky, The Stranger and The Plague by Camus, A Confession by Tolstoy, Candide by Voltaire... hmm, what am I missing? Any other standard fare? I confess I've never read any of the Douglas Adams books.
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Old 01-10-2005, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaman
For the record, I live like anyone else, I'm fairly normal, but I still think I'm wrong - by my standards - to do it.
Our views are not so far apart as you might think...

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

~ Dorothy Parker

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Old 01-10-2005, 04:05 PM
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I confess I've never read any of the Douglas Adams books.
Oh you should! Pure absurdity.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Pure absurdity, but with wonderful insights thrown in.

Today's equivalent, but with fantasy as opposed to science fiction, would be Terry Pratchett.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:12 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

I don't know who Terry Pratchett is, but that name always makes me think of the Oklahoma City bombing for some reason...

Anyway I have intended to read those books for many years, but unfortunately I read about a book a decade. :blush:
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
I confess I've never read any of the Douglas Adams books.
:eek: :stunned:
Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
I don't know who Terry Pratchett is
:stunned: :damn: :rubeyes: :shock:
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Old 01-10-2005, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaman
I cannot help coming back to the realisation that it is never the wrong decision to suicide.
This is partly because you haven't framed the question (in this thread, at any rate) with reference to anybody besides yourself. With the exception of a universally hated person, from the perspective of others it's pretty much always the wrong decision to suicide. The self-immolater frees themself from pain at the cost of inflicting massive doses of it on everyone who cared about them.

[And by the way, y'all are buggin' me: it's anomaly. :) ]
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Old 01-10-2005, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
[And by the way, y'all are buggin' me: it's anomaly. :) ]
Edited. :D

Besides, Justaman started it. :wink:
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Old 01-10-2005, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Nihilism vs. Existentialism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Quote:
Originally Posted by justaman
I cannot help coming back to the realisation that it is never the wrong decision to suicide.
This is partly because you haven't framed the question (in this thread, at any rate) with reference to anybody besides yourself. With the exception of a universally hated person, from the perspective of others it's pretty much always the wrong decision to suicide. The self-immolater frees themself from pain at the cost of inflicting massive doses of it on everyone who cared about them.
Well I can't speak for justaman, but since I've had similar thoughts over the years I'm guessing he might argue that it's illogical to weight pain to others over pain to yourself. So the only logical reason to avoid hurting others while enduring pain yourself is to elude other consequences such as possible retaliation or personal guilt - neither of which would be a factor after death.
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