Discussion on Scientology

[godfry n. glad]

It's banned in Australia? How'd they do that?

I know the Germans were recently all over them about fraud and they were posturing themselves as the persecuted minority religion. I never heard the upshot of all that.

I wonder how far up in the "org" one has to be before one knows its real nature?

[Angakuk]

godfry, as I understand it, Scientology is not actually banned in Australia, but it has been denied religious status. It is treated like any other corporation or commercial organization. As for "how far up in the "org" one has to be before one knows its real nature", it looks to me, from Ebner's article, like all you need to do is walk in the front door with your eyes open.

[adthelad]

There is a lot of rubbish written about Scientology on the internet.

If anyone wants to hear the truth about what it is about then feel free to ask me.

[Leesifer]

Fire away, adthelad. I'm interested.

[Kevlar]

Me too adthelad, read the Wikipedia article about Xenu and let me know what you think about that. BTW, what are your credentials for clearing our minds of rubbish about Scientology?

[adthelad]

Well I tried Scientology because someone I trusted had got some fantastic gains from it. I researched the internet thoroughly first and certainly had some questions about it.
I couldn't see why given that LRH had come up with a plausible theory of how the mind works he would bother with something like Xenu.
Anyway I decided nothing ventured nothing gained and decided to give it a fair chance - at worst I figured I'd gain some insight into how brainwashing works.

The more I read the more I realised this guy was a genius, especially if Scientology was just a scam! I decided to suspend judgement about the negative and crazy stuff (though I kept it in mind), especially given that Scientologists seemed to do some good in the community and a lot of the people attacking seemed to think LRH was an idiot which he obviously wasn't. I decided it was worth trying it out and started with some Dianetics. I also did a course called "Basic Study Manual" which was pretty good - I'd done some research into study and memory techniques at university but not come across anything this useful and sensible.

I liked the fact that it was not based around belief - it's all about giving it a try and seeing if it works. Which it did and I was encouraged to go further.
Now I'm close to the state of "Clear" and have gained beyond my expectations in terms of how good it would make me feel. Actually I wasn't interested in feeling better (though I would have been if I'd known what it was like) - I was more interested in the spiritual side.

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by NC Kev

BTW, what are your credentials for clearing our minds of rubbish about Scientology.

No credentials other than that I am a highly intelligent and free-thinking person who has first hand experience of Scientology.

[livius drusus]

Interesting. I'm glad to hear from someone with personal experience in the matter. I'm very curious to see your thoughts on/rebuttal to the Xenu page Kev linked to.

Welcome to FF, adthelad.

[Leesifer]

Oops, I should have said welcome to too, adthelad.

[Kevlar]

OK, nobody's saying you're not intelligent, but let me put some stuff out there just for argument's sake. Almost everyone thinks they are intelligent, and it's usually the dumbest ones who think they are the smartest. I'm not saying you are dumb, I'm just saying that being the skeptic that I am, a red flag goes up whenever someone says "I'm highly intelligent".

Originally Posted by adthelad

Well I tried Scientology because someone I trusted had got some fantastic gains from it. I researched the internet thoroughly first and certainly had some questions about it.

What are these fantastic gains that you speak of? Are the quantifiable in any way? Are do we just have to take your word for it? You can see what I am getting at, anecdotal evidence is not very reliable.

Originally Posted by adthelad

I couldn't see why given that LRH had come up with a plausible theory of how the mind works he would bother with something like Xenu.

Ok, so why did he bother with Xenu and the Galactic Confederacy. The only difference that I can see between this and any other religious revelation, is that it resembles a really bad B-movie plot.

Originally Posted by adthelad

Anyway I decided nothing ventured nothing gained and decided to give it a fair chance - at worst I figured I'd gain some insight into how brainwashing works.

Just remember, the last person to know about a brainwashing, is the one being brainwashed.

Originally Posted by adthelad

The more I read the more I realised this guy was a genius, especially if Scientology was just a scam!

Well, he may seem like a genius to you, but when I read Dianetics, he seemed like someone who knows how to appear intelligent to the unwary. Even if he is a genius in some respects, his motives should be very important to you. Whether you are scamed by an idiot or genius, you are still a sucker.

Originally Posted by adthelad

I decided to suspend judgement about the negative and crazy stuff (though I kept it in mind), especially given that Scientologists seemed to do some good in the community and a lot of the people attacking seemed to think LRH was an idiot which he obviously wasn't. I decided it was worth trying it out and started with some Dianetics. I also did a course called "Basic Study Manual" which was pretty good - I'd done some research into study and memory techniques at university but not come across anything this useful and sensible.

I dont' have time to comment on this right now, but here again is anecdotal evidence. If it's so useful and sensible, it would be more widely accepted. People aren't the idiots the Scientologists would have you believe.

Originally Posted by adthelad

I liked the fact that it was not based around belief - it's all about giving it a try and seeing if it works. Which it did and I was encouraged to go further.
Now I'm close to the state of "Clear" and have gained beyond my expectations in terms of how good it would make me feel. Actually I wasn't interested in feeling better (though I would have been if I'd known what it was like) - I was more interested in the spiritual side.

There is no scientific evidence to support any of the Scientologist's claims, so I don't know how you can say it's not based on belief. LRH says it and you believe it.

You have got to know that if you are feeling better on any level, it because you decided to feel better, and nobody sold you your happiness. All this "clear" business really sounds like a brainwashing to me. You believe you have been made mentally superior through some sort of magical science, and anyone who tells you that your're crazy is merely inferior because they haven't been made "clear" and couldn't possibly understand.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by adthelad

There is a lot of rubbish written about Scientology on the internet.

Can you be more specific? What rubbish are you talking about?

If anyone wants to hear the truth about what it is about then feel free to ask me.

OK. I have a few questions.

How much does it cost to become "clear"?

What benefits are there to becoming clear? Will you still be susceptible to illnesses? Does it make you smarter?

What does the e-meter measure, and how?

Describe the OT levels and their distinguishing characteristics. Can they time travel? Can they kill someone with their thoughts?

Which specific Scientology teachings do you reject, and which do you accept? How did you decide which were true and which were false?

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Interesting. I'm glad to hear from someone with personal experience in the matter. I'm very curious to see your thoughts on/rebuttal to the Xenu page Kev linked to.

Welcome to FF, adthelad.

Well basically Scientology isn't about believing anything you can't experience for yourself.

Thanks for the welcome!

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by NC Kev

you are still a sucker.

OK thanks Kev - the most important part in understanding something is a willingness to understand it. Otherwise there is little point in trying to communicate.

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by adthelad

OK thanks Kev - the most important part in understanding something is a willingness to understand it. Otherwise there is little point in trying to communicate.

So if you have something enlightening to share, then share it. But don't come in here and misquote me just to dodge the issue. I am not going to be willing to believe anything without some meaningful information. All you've done so far is say "believe me because I say so".

My original quote was "Whether you are scamed by an idiot or genius, you are still a sucker.", and by "you" I didn't mean you, but anyone in general.

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by lisarea

Can you be more specific? What rubbish are you talking about?

Stuff like the site someone posted here.

OK. I have a few questions.
How much does it cost to become "clear"?
What benefits are there to becoming clear? Will you still be susceptible to illnesses? Does it make you smarter?
What does the e-meter measure, and how?
Describe the OT levels and their distinguishing characteristics. Can they time travel? Can they kill someone with their thoughts?
Which specific Scientology teachings do you reject, and which do you accept? How did you decide which were true and which were false?

You can donate as much as you want to become clear if you like the church or you can do it for nothing.
It makes you less susceptible to illness and it may well make you smarter in terms of IQ. It will definitely make you smarter in terms of dealing with life.
The OT levels are about regaining spiritual abilities.
Tom Cruise used them to develop a lethal venom that he spits at reporters he doesn't like. I don't know the answers to those questions but OTs don't go around killing people with their thoughts.
Tell me about the Scientology teachings you know about and I'll tell you which I accept and which I reject. I accept Dianetics and Study Tech, and the organizational theory within Scientology as I have experience of them working.

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by NC Kev

So if you have something enlightening to share, then share it. But don't come in here and misquote me just to dodge the issue.

My original quote was "Whether you are scamed by an idiot or genius, you are still a sucker.", and by "you" I didn't mean you, but anyone in general.

OK - I can see that is probably a misquote. But I certainly don't get the impression you're interested in understanding my point of view as much as telling me I'm wrong.

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by Leesifer

Oops, I should have said welcome to too, adthelad.

Thankyou!

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by adthelad

OK - I can see that is probably a misquote. But I certainly don't get the impression you're interested in understanding my point of view as much as telling me I'm wrong.

I don't think you understand me at all. I am a skeptic, my modus operandi is "prove it to me". I honestly believe that my points are valid, so if you want to teach me something, then tell me why I am wrong. It's not healthy to just listen to people that tell you what you want to hear.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by adthelad

Stuff like the site someone posted here.

You still need to be more specific. What exactly is 'rubbish'? Is there false information on the site? If so, what is it?

You can donate as much as you want to become clear if you like the church or you can do it for nothing.

So Scientology courses are offered for free? This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Can you show me some cite for that?

It makes you less susceptible to illness and it may well make you smarter in terms of IQ. It will definitely make you smarter in terms of dealing with life.

How? By destroying invisible monsters that are stuck to your body?

The OT levels are about regaining spiritual abilities.

Such as? And why do you say regain? What took them away? Invisible monsters stuck to your body?

Tom Cruise used them to develop a lethal venom that he spits at reporters he doesn't like. I don't know the answers to those questions but OTs don't go around killing people with their thoughts.

I've seen Scientology material that makes the claim that OT VIII level Scientologists can kill people with their thoughts.

I am aware that they don't, because it's a stupid claim. But does the Church of Scientology make that claim?

Tell me about the Scientology teachings you know about and I'll tell you which I accept and which I reject. I accept Dianetics and Study Tech, and the organizational theory within Scientology as I have experience of them working.

Please describe your experience. So far, you've been very vague about it.

What parts of Scientology work? You didn't answer my question about e-meters, either. What exactly do they measure, and how?

You claim that you have personal experience with Scientology working, but you won't say what. What worked, and how do you quantify it?

You said you were going to answer questions, but you haven't so far.

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by adthelad

Well basically Scientology isn't about believing anything you can't experience for yourself.

You mean like using special majical powers to spit poison in someone's eyes?

[adthelad]

Originally Posted by NC Kev

I don't think you understand me at all. I am a skeptic, my modus operandi is "prove it to me". I honestly believe that my points are valid, so if you want to teach me something, then tell me why I am wrong. It's not healthy to just listen to people that tell you what you want to hear.

I think I understand you all too well.

I've stated my position.

[Crumb]

Weren't you going to answer some questions?

[adthelad]

Yes - but not just for the sake of having an argument!

[Crumb]

You'll only answer questions if no one questions your answers?

[D. Scarlatti]

Originally Posted by adthelad

Yes - but not just for the sake of having an argument!

So ... by "Yes" what you really mean is "No."