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07-12-2010, 04:20 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
I think the context for this is that in this country a lot of parents feel their vacation is more important than their kids education and they won't hesitate to make them miss a day or even a week or more if they feel like it. This may have been in part an overreaction to that problem.
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I think a family should certainly be able to prioritize their own life, and to take their kids out of school for a day or a week or whatever if they so choose. It's their family time, and not all parents can, or wish to, schedule their vacations or leisure time around the school schedule. Why should the people who are working and paying taxes to fund education not be able to do make decisions for their own family?
I see a huge difference between "A free public education must be available to everyone" and "Everyone must utilize the free public education system we have devised"
I also see a huge difference between "All children must receive education" and "All children must be taught this specific set of topics using this specific scope and sequence"
Last edited by LadyShea; 07-12-2010 at 06:07 PM.
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07-12-2010, 04:42 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir
I'm more concerned with the fact that children don't really know what's in their best interests, and a parent who would let their kid watch cartoons all day rather than get an education is setting their kid up to be an ignorant failure. It's in the child's interest to get an education, not just the state's.
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True, and you could probably make a case for complete lack of any education being child neglect and therefore illegal.
Quote:
And no, I don't have any qualms about forcing parents to send their kid to school in that situation. Of course, it is also the case that many of the parents who would let their kid do that probably shouldn't have their kids in the first place (a heroin addict would probably be the type that wouldn't care about their kid watching TV rather than learning anything, for example).
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Right. The fact is, parents who don't give a shit what or if the child learns, are the probably the least likely to take the steps necessary to legally remove themselves from the compulsory education system. They probably enroll their kids in school just to get them out of the way if nothing else.
Parents who do nothing, neither enroll their kids in school nor declare as homeschoolers or whatever, can be, and are, charged under a number of laws such as truancy, or as I said before neglect. CPS has been known to investigate even those who are legally homeschooling and educating.
Are some going to fall through the cracks? Sure. To steal an idea from lisarea, there are a number of parents out there actively fucking their kids up via abuse or neglect, and I, for one, am not including them when I make various statements about parent's rights.
Last edited by LadyShea; 07-12-2010 at 06:03 PM.
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07-12-2010, 05:56 PM
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Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
Okay, that's just where I disagree. I think that an individual's choice should trump the state curriculum. And if I'm wrong then that means that it is okay for the state to infringe on an individual choice in order to ensure what is best for the state as a whole. I don't think that's okay, I value individual choice in this matter over the state's right to take away that choice. That's all I am arguing.
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Gotcha. I'm just arguing the opposite. I think there are many circumstances where it is preferable for the state to preempt individual choice to promote the general welfare. I don't think that's particularly controversial, even if we all have different opinions re: what specific circumstances qualify.
Here's one we agree on, for example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
The one exception I would make would have to do with keeping kids out of child labor...
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I am sort of curious as to why child labor get to be an exception, though. Why should the nanny state interfere with a family's individual choice to make some extra money and teach their children valuable job skills by seeking employment rather than schooling for their children?
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
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07-12-2010, 06:10 PM
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Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
I see a huge difference between "A free public education must be available to everyone" and "Everyone must utilize the free public education system we have devised"
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i know this was in response to Watser?, not me, but in case there's any doubt, that's not quite what I'm saying either. I think that "public education" has two components:
1) A standard curriculum that all students are required to complete.
2) Free public schools at which that curriculum is taught.
All students must complete 1 and may take advantage of 2 in order to do so, if they and/or their parents so choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
True, and you could probably make a case for complete lack of any education being child neglect and therefore illegal.
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Would you only make that claim of a complete lack of any education, though? It's pretty difficult to imagine a scenario in which parents, no matter how negligent, literally teach their children nothing. What about a substandard education? What about a comprehensive education in laughable falsehoods and frivolous pseudoskills?
My point here is that, if you want to make the case that failing to provide an acceptable education is a form of neglect, you need to have a legal definition of the sort of education that is acceptable. I'm saying that the standard curriculum is that definition.
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
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07-12-2010, 06:27 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamus Prime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
Okay, that's just where I disagree. I think that an individual's choice should trump the state curriculum. And if I'm wrong then that means that it is okay for the state to infringe on an individual choice in order to ensure what is best for the state as a whole. I don't think that's okay, I value individual choice in this matter over the state's right to take away that choice. That's all I am arguing.
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Gotcha. I'm just arguing the opposite. I think there are many circumstances where it is preferable for the state to preempt individual choice to promote the general welfare. I don't think that's particularly controversial, even if we all have different opinions re: what specific circumstances qualify.
Here's one we agree on, for example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign Steve
The one exception I would make would have to do with keeping kids out of child labor...
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I am sort of curious as to why child labor get to be an exception, though. Why should the nanny state interfere with a family's individual choice to make some extra money and teach their children valuable job skills by seeking employment rather than schooling for their children?
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Except that I'm not arguing that one point of view (state's choice should trump the individual's choice vs. ... the opposite) is categorically correct or better than the other. I think it's a value judgment, and we're going to come to different conclusions based upon our different values, as we have. And it's all good.
What I am arguing is that in giving those choices over to the state, you have to take away freedoms from individuals. And that anybody who thinks that that is a good idea, or ideal or necessary for the good of society or whatever, places a lower value on that individual choice than I do.
That's all I was arguing, ever. I'm being descriptive, not prescriptive.
The child labor example is to show that I do draw the line somewhere, just not in the same place as most others.
Long story short. If the argument is, "It's not nanny state!" my response is, "Yes it is." If the argument is, "It is nanny state, but that's okay because it's necessary for the good of society," my response is, "Okay, that's cool. We both have the same number of dogs in this fight (namely, zero) so I'm going to keep agreeing to disagree on that point." Either way, I have absolutely nothing new to add.
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07-12-2010, 06:39 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
1) A standard curriculum that all students are required to complete.
All students must complete 1
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Curriculum varies by state and district as is, and some of the methods and materials used to teach the required subjects are inferior to other methods and materials in my opinion.
For example, I think spiral math is inferior to mastery math. Most US schools use some form of spiral math curriculum.
My choosing mastery math will put Kiddo on a different timeline for certain specific topics than his schooled counterparts, though the idea is that both will be basically mathematically literate by adulthood. However if you tested him according to PS standards at one of those places where the scope and sequence diverge, he would appear to be failing.
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Would you only make that claim of a complete lack of any education, though? It's pretty difficult to imagine a scenario in which parents, no matter how negligent, literally teach their children nothing.
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I agree, but I was responding to a specific statement about children watching TV all day with their parents blessing.
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What about a substandard education?
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*smile* well dear, until there is some sort of consensus amongst experts as to what a "standard" education is and should be I can't really answer that.
Srsly, I can't answer that right now, because I only know what I want my kid to know. Do I think my expectations are superior? You betcha, but I am sure many others think I am full of shit.
I actually have some hope for the Core Standards Inititiave. So far they seem pretty common sense goals that can be reached using a number of different methods, so has the flexibility I support such as:
Quote:
(K-5 Reading)
* 1. Read closely to determine what the text says explicitly and to make logical inferences from it; cite specific textual evidence when writing or speaking to support conclusions drawn from the text.
* 2. Determine central ideas or themes of a text and analyze their development; summarize the key supporting details and ideas.
* 3. Analyze how and why individuals, events, and ideas develop and interact over the course of a text.
(6-12 Speaking and Listening)
Comprehension and Collaboration
* 1. Prepare for and participate effectively in a range of conversations and collaborations with diverse partners, building on others’ ideas and expressing their own clearly and persuasively.
* 2. Integrate and evaluate information presented in diverse media and formats, including visually, quantitatively, and orally.
* 3. Evaluate a speaker’s point of view, reasoning, and use of evidence and rhetoric.
Key Points for High School Mathematics
“Modeling links classroom mathematics and statistics to everyday life, work, and decision-making. It is the process of choosing and using appropriate mathematics and statistics to analyze empirical situations, to understand them better, and to improve decisions. Quantities and their relationships in physical, economic, public policy, social and everyday situations can be modeled using mathematical and statistical methods. When making mathematical models, technology is valuable for varying assumptions, exploring consequences, and comparing predictions with data.”
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Will this initiative eventually bog itself down with specifics and tests and bureaucracy, and leave outliers behind? Yeah prolly.
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What about a comprehensive education in laughable falsehoods and frivolous pseudoskills?
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We can't even seem to keep that out of our public schools, (see Texas). They will be taught crazy shit at home no matter what though, and they may retain that and ignore school.
As I said, you can only present the information, you cannot learn it for them.
Quote:
My point here is that, if you want to make the case that failing to provide an acceptable education is a form of neglect, you need to have a legal definition of the sort of education that is acceptable. I'm saying that the standard curriculum is that definition.
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I cannot define "acceptable education" for anyone but myself. I was only making a case for using existing laws against those who might fail to provide any education.
Last edited by LadyShea; 07-12-2010 at 06:49 PM.
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07-12-2010, 06:40 PM
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Vice Cobra Assistant Commander
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Gotcha. Other than nitpicking the definition of "nanny state", the only thing I'd really take issue with is the idea that neither of us has a dog in this fight. As I said earlier, I think we all have a legitimate interest in ensuring that the people we have to share our society with are educated enough to make halfway intelligent economic/political/etc decisions, so I'd argue that we do, indeed, have dogs in this fight, although probably to a lesser degree than somebody who has a school aged child.
ETA @ ES
__________________
"Trans Am Jesus" is "what hanged me"
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07-12-2010, 06:59 PM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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07-12-2010, 07:33 PM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
What are the minimum standards for a high school diploma anyway? As I recall, they're strictly credit based. That is, you don't have to demonstrate any real understanding of the core liberal arts curriculum. You just have to complete a certain number of credit hours in different subject areas, according to state standards or something, no?
What if, instead of mandating credit hours, a high school diploma required some level of knowledge of core subject areas. A passing score on the GED is set as in the top 60% of high school graduates, so maybe if something like that were set rather than being relative, a high school diploma could be awarded to students who a) meet those standards and b) participate in some kind of educational activity until age 16. Kids who have already met or are on track to meeting those minimum educational standards could have the option of pursuing more advanced liberal arts subjects, vocational training and education, or some kind of individual projects or learning--which could include something like sailing. Just something more than sitting around watching TV or doing menial jobs.
I don't really see the problem with kids getting some vocational training as teenagers, and in fact, I looked at a number of local high schools and they all offer vocational training of some sort, although it leans heavily toward white collar vocations--programming, office skills, bookkeeping, even--disturbingly, I think--classes in using specific software. I get that it's easier to offer that kind of vocational study, simply because it doesn't require the facilities that something like auto mechanics or plumbing courses would; but it's certainly not any more innately 'academic' to be a data entry clerk than it is to be a plumber, but I don't see why either one should count as academic credit.
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07-12-2010, 07:42 PM
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Fishy mokey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
I think the context for this is that in this country a lot of parents feel their vacation is more important than their kids education and they won't hesitate to make them miss a day or even a week or more if they feel like it. This may have been in part an overreaction to that problem.
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I think a family should certainly be able to prioritize their own life, and to take their kids out of school for a day or a week or whatever if they so choose. It's their family time, and not all parents can, or wish to, schedule their vacations or leisure time around the school schedule. Why should the people who are working and paying taxes to fund education not be able to do make decisions for their own family?
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Yeah, that would be a great lesson to teach your kids: whenever you feel like taking the day off, just do so. I'm sure that will be very useful in later life.
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07-12-2010, 07:43 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
What are the minimum standards for a high school diploma anyway?
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It varies. Alabama has a graduation exam.
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As I recall, they're strictly credit based. That is, you don't have to demonstrate any real understanding of the core liberal arts curriculum.
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Well, you have to pass the classes to get the credits or whatever
Quote:
What if, instead of mandating credit hours, a high school diploma required some level of knowledge of core subject areas. A passing score on the GED is set as in the top 60% of high school graduates, so maybe if something like that were set rather than being relative, a high school diploma could be awarded to students who a) meet those standards and b) participate in some kind of educational activity until age 16.Kids who have already met or are on track to meeting those minimum educational standards could have the option of pursuing more advanced liberal arts subjects, vocational training and education, or some kind of individual projects or learning--which could include something like sailing. Just something more than sitting around watching TV or doing menial jobs.
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If the standards were sane, I'd go along with that. I want more options on getting there and where to go after, not fewer. So hey good idea!
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07-12-2010, 07:46 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Yeah, that would be a great lesson to teach your kids: whenever you feel like taking the day off, just do so. I'm sure that will be very useful in later life.
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That's not what I was saying, at all.
Scheduling vacation time that is compatible with your place of employment and/or business schedule as well as other factors like cost, but happens to conflict with the school schedule, is NOT the same as just taking random days off.
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07-12-2010, 07:47 PM
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California Sober
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Silicon Valley
Gender: Bender
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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07-12-2010, 07:53 PM
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Dogehlaugher -Scrutari
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northwest
Gender: Female
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
I think Oregon had a certain number of credits, plus you had to pass a test (at one school district they did away with the test, according to the teacher that's standing in the room with me).
I don't know how it worked.
Here's an article though:
Oregon sets new high school diploma requirements - OregonLive.com
Aha, that and many other requirements. A whole portfolio it seems.
http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/page/?id=1684
Last edited by Qingdai; 07-12-2010 at 08:06 PM.
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07-12-2010, 10:01 PM
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Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Public speaking requirements? What the shit? :unicorncentipederainbowvomit:
Basing graduations on earned credits would be perfectly OK if teachers were consistently competent, but they aren't. Kids graduate all the time without even the most fundamental academics. A system that provides sufficient language credits to functionally illiterate students is just plain broken.
Seriously, look at and figure the scoring on some GED sample tests online. That's the level of competence I'm talking about, and 40% of HS graduates don't have it. That's just really really really bad, and it's also really really really bad that kids who enter high school already competent are stuck having to go through the academic courses offered in such a low performing environment.
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07-12-2010, 10:30 PM
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Fishy mokey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Yeah, that would be a great lesson to teach your kids: whenever you feel like taking the day off, just do so. I'm sure that will be very useful in later life.
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That's not what I was saying, at all.
Scheduling vacation time that is compatible with your place of employment and/or business schedule as well as other factors like cost, but happens to conflict with the school schedule, is NOT the same as just taking random days off.
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Ok. But that was the problem I was talking about. People just take their kids off school if it conflicts with their schedule. It's not like they don't know the school schedule either (and school vacations are pretty long anyway, so there is plenty of time to choose from for your own vacation). They just don't care.
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07-12-2010, 10:42 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser?
Ok. But that was the problem I was talking about. People just take their kids off school if it conflicts with their schedule. It's not like they don't know the school schedule either (and school vacations are pretty long anyway, so there is plenty of time to choose from for your own vacation). They just don't care.
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They just prioritize family time when it means a day or two or five out of the entire what, 180 day school year if they are unable to schedule during school holidays. Some kids won't even feel those 5 days...I never would have. In fact we took one vacation during school (opportunity due to a mandatory business trip), and my teachers gave me the weeks worth of work ahead of time. I had it completed within 2 days.
Not every business allows vacation time during school holidays, specifically if they are based on school holiday tourism or holidays (like retail jobs you can't take off any time during Christmas season). When I was growing up my dad's company closed the whole facility for two weeks every year, they mixed it up every year, forcing the same vacation for everyone, no choices.
What should families do, simply not go on a vacation (that may have educational opportunities) because their work and school schedules conflict?
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07-12-2010, 10:46 PM
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Fishy mokey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Every business here allows vacation time during school holidays (some businesses take their vacation time at a fixed time, like construction but that is always during school holidays). It is just a matter of planning ahead.
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07-12-2010, 10:47 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Ah, well that isn't even close to how things work here.
Anyway I am not going to lose sleep because some kid misses a couple days of sitting in a classroom to spend quality time with their family and/or visit some place interesting.
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07-12-2010, 10:49 PM
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Fishy mokey
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Furrin parts
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Nah, it's just to sit in a car with a trailer that is being hauled through Belgium and France with a trunk full of Dutch food after which they will lay on a Spanish beach with the other Dutchies and meet each other in a Dutch bar in Torremolinos and speak Dutch and drink.
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07-13-2010, 03:08 AM
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Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Why would you bring Dutch food to Spain?
Doesn't that partially defeat the purpose of leaving the Netherlands?
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07-13-2010, 05:18 AM
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Dogehlaugher -Scrutari
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northwest
Gender: Female
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
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07-13-2010, 07:08 AM
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mesospheric bore
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Zealand
Gender: Male
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
More like the stereotype of American tourists going to Paris and wanting to eat at McDonalds, I think.
eta - Northern Europeans often go on holidays in places like Spain the same way Americans go to Florida. They're there for sun, beaches and overindulgence, not for cultural experiences.
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07-22-2010, 09:51 PM
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I said it, so I feel it, dick
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Here
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Valedictorian Speaks Out Against Schooling in Graduation Speech -- Signs of the Times News
Quote:
I am now accomplishing that goal. I am graduating. I should look at this as a positive experience, especially being at the top of my class. However, in retrospect, I cannot say that I am any more intelligent than my peers. I can attest that I am only the best at doing what I am told and working the system. Yet, here I stand, and I am supposed to be proud that I have completed this period of indoctrination. I will leave in the fall to go on to the next phase expected of me, in order to receive a paper document that certifies that I am capable of work. But I contest that I am a human being, a thinker, an adventurer - not a worker. A worker is someone who is trapped within repetition - a slave of the system set up before him. But now, I have successfully shown that I was the best slave. I did what I was told to the extreme. While others sat in class and doodled to later become great artists, I sat in class to take notes and become a great test-taker.
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LOL@Coxsackie-Athens High School on accounta they are named after a virus
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07-22-2010, 10:24 PM
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Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
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Re: Fucking education! How does it work?
Holy shit balls for miles. She's like a supersmart commie version of the suicidal blond in Pump Up the Volume.
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