Forums...belonging or not to belonging

[Gawen]

I imagine many of you have gone to forums...and there are a plethora of forums for every imaginable subject...and thought.."Na. This one ain't for me"?

But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

[ceptimus]

I think there is a hurdle to get over before you begin to feel 'at home' in a forum. Once you've passed the 20~30 post barrier (or just read a sufficient number of posts, if you are the 'lurker' type) you start to feel as though you belong there, and you know some of the other regular posters.

Getting past the hurdle is down to luck in the timing of your first few visits. If, on your first visit, you happen to be interested in one of the threads, then you make a post or two, and get into the habit of visiting the place to check for replies - then you're hooked. On the other hand if nothing catches your eye during the first few visits, you are likely not to check the place out for a while. Once you've visited, say, ten times running and not found anything interesting, you're likely to think, "This place is not for me." and visit no more.

[JoeP]

A lot of people need to lurk (or participate at a low level) before getting a feel for a place. "What attracted you to the forum in the first place" could be very little - it costs nothing to sign up and browse a bit.

I don't have much of an answer on what it takes to feel a forum is right for me, or anyone. But one part of it is taking some effort. You can't drop in every few weeks and expect to get a lot out of it. That's me and iidb. (The sheer volume of activity at iidb is what's put me off feeling a part of it.) I'm not saying you need to post and respond, but you do need to be there.

"Belonging" is another level altogether. There are forums which can be appealing and comfortable and yet you can not "belong". Low activity forums, or forums where posts are not acknowledged with any personal interaction.

This was a free thought, yadayada

[Farren]

Well I only know I joined one forum to take part in a discussion about the Iraq war (IIDB), got to know Christ-on-a-Stick, who is my ultimate favourite Internet person, then followed her to another forum, from which I followed the people I subsequently got to know here.

That's the sum total of my forum experiences - wait, I lie. I signed up on the Morrowind game forum because I was doing a lot of Morrowind modding and I briefly flirted with Mykeru.com because of DoctorX's little drama on HH, but found there were too few users there to keep me coming back for a look-see.

So my own forum experience has been almost entirely selecting forums based on topical issues being discussed and where the really A-grade and super amazing people are, like here.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I think there is a hurdle to get over before you begin to feel 'at home' in a forum. Once you've passed the 20~30 post barrier (or just read a sufficient number of posts, if you are the 'lurker' type) you start to feel as though you belong there, and you know some of the other regular posters.

I think that's true, but with a caveat: once a lurker starts posting, the hurdle gets reset. It's really easy to feel ignored and marginalized when you know everyone and they don't know you.

I lurked on IIDB for almost a year before I began posting in earnest, and the number of carefully thought out posts I wrote which received no response whatsoever was not exactly conducive to feeling like a member of the community. It's an odd kind of dissonance, too, because I had been such an assiduous reader (and bookmarker) that I knew more about the people and place than most, but it took ages before I made an impression on people the way they had made an impression on me.

[Ex-zombie]

I came to this forum from IIDB. I post there under a different user name. I went there as I was deconverting from Christianity. I got here by looking under Livius Drusus's profile at IIDB. I like forums to be a mix of learning and humor. I don't know whether I should reveal this or not as it might cause someone's head to swell up like a balloon. Livius Drusus is my favorite poster at IIDB.

[Gawen]

It was just a thought...a question that I thought I'd pose to you all. How many of you consider this a sort of 'home'? A place to play...have fun, discuss things comfortably with people you like and like you? I ask this because the forum is small yet. People here seem to be fairly close-knit. Many enjoy the same things.

*thinkin*...Perhaps some forums are used just for the intellectual, others for whinging, and others run by core groups that run the place as they see fit...whatever. I reckon people use a forum for whatever purposes...(duh...lol). It's not so much of what kind of impression one makes or is looking for, but at the same time it's acceptance in the things they talk about.

[livius drusus]

My head seems to be its usual size (I know; that's not saying much), but I am quite thoroughly enchanted nonetheless. I've posted so infrequently on IIDB in the past few months that your appreciation comes as a genuine surprise and thrill to me.

Thank you, Ex-zombie.

[wildernesse]

Originally Posted by Gawen

It was just a thought...a question that I thought I'd pose to you all. How many of you consider this a sort of 'home'? A place to play...have fun, discuss things comfortably with people you like and like you? I ask this because the forum is small yet. People here seem to be fairly close-knit. Many enjoy the same things.

I have to admit that in the short time that I've been here, this place has sucked me in and I'm here more than anywhere else (board-wise--I'm in infidelchat several hours most days!). I like social interaction--chatting about random ideas and everyday stuff (food, movies, etc.) with most of the online people I know and like best. Since I don't care much about arguing and debating (especially the same thing over and over again) about religion--and I'm not a serious person in most respects--a forum that is more social is great. Plus the atmosphere is much less adversarial here than most places--which suits me. The only person who I want to beat here is Blake. . .and that's only at Alchemy.

Plus, posting and reading here fills up a good deal of my nearly unquenchable desire for daily social interaction, so I don't end up depressed about lack of interaction when I'm restraining myself from emailing/calling/talking to or being with my IRL friends and family. Self-restraint--who would have thought I had any of that.

[freemonkey]

Sure, I've wandered into a forum and realized I didn't belong. Obviously, there are many more places I'd feel out of place than not.

I feel very comfortable here, probably mostly because I've known, and enjoyed the company of, so many of the members here from iidb & HH.

I've joined, lurked and even marginally participated at a few other fora, most for photography and art. After awhile I felt I didn't really have so much in common with many of those people, deep down, and just stopped visiting. I sometimes wonder why I seem to have less in common with people who have the same profession/hobbies/interests. The only answer I can come up with is that my interests are many and varied, and conscious freethinkers are also varied, making them more interesting to me. Among other things. Just a theory, I don't know.

[viscousmemories]

Great question, Gawen. You'll be sorry you asked.

It's hard question because there are so many factors to consider. Honestly I've been pretty active in half a dozen forums and this is the first one where I really feel like I belong.

I dabbled in a couple forums before I found IIDB, but that was the first one that I participated in a lot. At first I felt like I belonged there. But most of the threads I started or joined were in Miscellaneous Discussions or Morals, Foundations and Principles, I almost never even read the religion-oriented forums.

The biggest problem I had there was that I started a few threads in the ICR that rapidly went to hell in a handbasket, and I lost favor with certain of the admins early on. I thought they were closed-minded to suggestions and dependent on ad hoc justifications for plainly illogical procedures, and they thought I was a demanding, stubborn, self-righteous and implacable complainer. Frankly I think we were both at least partly right, but that's neither here nor there.

I became kind of scarce around there when I started the old Freethinkers Forum (which became Godless Heathens, now Heathen Hangout) but to be honest I never really felt "at home" there either. When liv and I started that forum I didn't really know 9/10 of the people that joined. It was pretty much a replacement for the IIDB FPF's, which I had only been a member of for a couple weeks. So basically I built the house, but it really wasn't my party. I don't blame anyone but circumstances and myself for that not working out.

Last fall I came to realize that I no longer had the opposition to theists I had when I joined IIDB and when I started the first FF. I was and am still an atheist (albeit closer to a weak-atheist/agnostic than the strong atheist I was), I'm still very liberal in my political and social views, and I still strongly support the separation of Church and State and such. But I have a much more live and let live and much less arrogant attitude about it all. I understand that there are people who are quite good at arguing both for and against various aspects of belief, and that it would take a lot more education for me to compete. I still enjoy the debates to a degree, but really only when people are respectful of each other. And I don't mean devoid of any passion or personality, just mindful of the fact that their opponent is a person.

Anyway so that's when I started to realize how virulently anti-theist the atmosphere at IIDB is, and I was one of the people who argued that such an environment isn't conducive to anyone learning anything. So I was labeled as part of the so-called "civility movement" there and have felt ostracized to a certain extent on that basis. So, when you combine my experiences with the administration with my opinion about the (still prevalent, IMO) anti-theist atmosphere there, it's safe to say I don't feel at all at home there anymore. This despite the fact that I still enjoy interacting with a lot of the people from there, staff included.

I also spend some time at skepticalcommunity.com, which is an offshoot of JREF. I've posted much more at the former than the latter, and I've met some really cool people there who have also joined here. I still go there, but as much as IIDB is an atheist-oriented site, SC is a skeptic-oriented site. There have been some great discussions and as I said there are some great people, but I still don't really feel at home because I don't strongly identify as a skeptic. I mean I am a skeptic (probably moreso then most people I know) but I just don't find any comfort in wearing the colors of a 'side'.

I feel right here, though. This feels like my home. The forum structure, rules, policies, etc. are all just what I think they should be. I know many of the people from the previous forums, and they must be getting something here they aren't getting somewhere else so that makes me happy because I helped make it. On the flipside I know there are some people who are not here who might otherwise really enjoy it and/or add to the atmosphere, simply because I'm one of the administrators. So that's a bit disheartening.

However, I am also well-aware of the fact that forum culture changes. People come and go, moods change and temperaments flare up. There will be fights, trolls, etc. and things could take a turn for the worse. We'll have to see about that. But so far yeah, this place feels like home to me. I'm really happy with it so far and even happier that there seems to be a number of you who are happy too.

[xorbie]

I'll just give my own little story. I started out in the deplorable dregs of yahoo chat when I was about 15 or 16 or so. I was mostly looking for debate, but it is, as one would expect, abysmal there. Anyway, eventually I just got sick of it and found IIDB after Goochs Dad (who also chatted on yahoo) mentioned it once. What I first loved about II was the debate... I was at that stage in my life when I was really just starting to explore all these concepts and arguments and I yearned for discussion/debate with others. My first 100 posts or so were probably all in EoG, GRD and P. As PD has the most volatile and heated debates (or tied with GRD), I ended up posting there a ton as well.

I don't think I even posted in TL until I had about 500 posts, and had been around for a month or so. II never really felt like a community to me, until I started to chat in infidelchat with Didy, Blex, wade and some other mods and posters. Then I eventually became a mod, but I think it still took me until about a couple weeks ago for it to really hit me... that II was just a place I felt really comfortable at. And thats why I'm here (and at HH). It's just a group of people I feel comfortable with.

But to me, that comfort is something that developed over time. Oddly enough, I've also developed some level of comfort with my favorite counterstrike server, and I never play anywhere else. I think there is just something visceral in me (all of us?) that likes regularity... likes seeing familiar faces (or names).

[Adora]

Originally Posted by Gawen

I imagine many of you have gone to forums...and there are a plethora of forums for every imaginable subject...and thought.."Na. This one ain't for me"?
But then again, how many of you have registered to a forum and then felt "Ya know, I really don't feel like I belong here"? Why? What were the reasons for this thought? What attracted you to the forum in the first place and what reason's for then thinking this?

It was Stile.

No, seriously, I once registered there. And it wasn't for a dare.

But on a more discuss-able note...

Recently in my wanderings through a certain fandom*, I came upon on of those Big Name Forums that everyone in the fandom knows, and signed up for the hell of it. Heh, bad move. The forum was so not me. It was just far too vanilla, and very much focused on... younger aspects of the fandom (no slash discussions, all sex/romance discussions kept under PG-13, no swearing, no discussion of antagonists in the original story, or if they do they all took the canon view that "OMG They R teh ebil", prejudice against anyone who even vaguely steps out of line or doesn't ship the same as everyone else, yadda yadda yadda). Basically, it was a site for 13 year olds who write shitty Mary Sues and post them at fanfiction.net . When I realised this, I couldn't (well, okay, maybe I could) understand why the fuck this site kept on being A-Okayed by the Author of the original text in interviews & shit, or why it always showed up in internet articles about the fandom. *shudders*

But then I discovered souls similar to myself and they pointed me in the right direction and now I am happy and have found my place at another forum which was basically made for people like me. *yayyy*

Currently I count my livejournal/journalfen** comings and goings as my web-touchstone, since I am abandoning my deviantArt site. DA has turned to a steaming pile of shit (as opposed to the tolerable non-steaming pile of shit it was before), and just doesn't cut it for me anymore. I may one day open a new account there and post some of my shit again, but that will probably only because I really really want to look at other people's art who post there. Convienience issues I guess. The site is really fucking slow and ugly these days as well, which shits me off to no end, and coupled with some of the ridiculous attempts to try and make the site as constructive as it used to be, it's just annoying me to hell.

There have been places where the relationship between myself and the forum has soured slowly over time, like the same thing with DA, but that's only happened once or twice.

This place is like a lot of the other forums I visit these days. I used to count a very old forum I hung around on as my touchstone, but after I got my place at DA I stopped doing that. I enjoy myself here and everything, just as I do on other forums I visit.

* No, I will not tell you which one.

** No, you cannot have my account name.

Look ma. A non atheist-forum based reply. Well don't I feel like the fucking black sheep around here...

[Gawen]

Interesting responses all. I appreciate everyone's forthrightness.
I no longer go to HH. I haven't been to SAB in a year. I'm not interested in Secularity or SecularLife, from what I've seen at either site, even though I have not participated.

Thank you all for responding.

[reprise]

I wouldn't have a clue how many forums I've registered at over the last few years - it would be well over a hundred. Most are OK places at which to hang out for a while but quickly become somewhere I only check out occasionally.

The very first forum I ever joined was the Yahoo wrestling chatroom (I kid you not). I'm a registered user at Stormfront and the Pizza Parlor - definitely not places at which I fell at home.

[livius drusus]

I'm registered at Stormfront too (not as livius). I was trying to trace a couple of Nazis who had popped on IIDB, but I never posted. What a scary, scary place. Did you ever post there, reprise?

[reprise]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

I'm registered at Stormfront too (not as livius). I was trying to trace a couple of Nazis who had popped on IIDB, but I never posted. What a scary, scary place. Did you ever post there, reprise?

IIRC, I have about three post there. As you said, a scary place.

[seebs]

I like IIDB occasionally, but I basically lost faith in the moderation over the whole Biff the Unclean/Yahzi thing. There are some forums I visit on and off. I'm most active at CF -- not because I always feel at home there, but because I have a large audience to work on, and ultimately, I like to persuade people.

I'm not sure what makes a forum "home". Cross+Flame is probably the most comfortable forum I've ever seen. At CF, I almost always feel like a bit of an intruder; too many people who are quite sure I'm not really Christian. IIDB goes the other way; too many people who are just looking for excuses to bash me as "not rational enough" because they dislike my conclusions on a few questions. This place is actually pretty friendly. I have to say, I like a forum where I can say "fuck" occasionally. I don't like having to filter my naturally "expressive" language. (And note that I'm not one of those people who can't swear without cusswords; I just like having the option.)

[godfry n. glad]

Hmmm...

I started all this at Usenet's alt.atheism. I was comfortable there, despite not considering myself an "atheist" (I hated defining myself as a "not-something"). After a couple of years there, the static level outweighed the decent conversation levels and many abused the open forum approach with strings of incessant unwarrented antitheistic profanity. I thought it amusing at first, but it got old very quickly.

I bailed and started searching for a board where I could seriously discuss the history of early christianity and the historicity of Jesus, which fascinates me. I bounced around a few sites on Yahoo! and left one in a huff, because I considered their approach to the issues to be so much intellectual masturbation, and made it clear I thought so. So many historical Jesus lists start with the assumption that he existed and then attempt to construct what this real Jesus was really like....I questioned this assumption.

At the point of exiting that list in a huff, I was recruited to moderate for JesusMysteries, a list that seriously discusses the historicity of Jesus and closely related historical issues of the development of scripture and the early church. I take a great deal of pride in participating in the establishment and running of that list. We demanded civility and, curiously, it was largely the theists who ended up violating the list guidelines with startling frequency. During that period, I stumbled into IIDB's BC&A (later BC&H) forum, where I liked the level of exchange and enjoyed the participants. I'm still listed as a moderator at JM, but I arrived at a comfortable intellectual position vis a vis a historical Jesus and began losing interest in the endless circular arguments and morbid equine flagellation. I started spending more time at IIDB.

Then my wife was diagnosed with cancer. I needed more socialization....so I started monitoring the more social boards at IIDB. I found a community in which I was comfortable. I came to consider IIDB my "home away from home (JM)" online. After my wife died, I became.... I dunno...erratic? Irasible? Irritating? I lashed out at a lot of people. I became entangled with a "woman" who I came to think of as a predator of my precious community at IIDB. I tried to take things into my own hands to warn my community and got suspended for it. During suspension, I was "handled" by the most ham-handed and dense administrator I've come across before or since. For those who know me, when I'm angry I don't mince words and I'm very straightforward. It got me banned.

A compassionate poster directed me to what was then GH, and later HH. I arrived there bitter and angry that I'd been exiled by my community. After a rocky start, I did well there until my temper again got the better of me and I did some insensitive posting...along with some cogent criticism of the "moderation". The later, from my perspective, got me banned there.

I've got another list that I consider a "hideaway", but the activity level is too low and the really active part of the list seems to want to engage at a scholatic level I'm not willing to take on at this point. I also do not trust one of the major moderators on that list. But, I need the socialization. I like the folks here. I'm still an atheist (more like a militant agnostic, really), and I'll still confront theistic assumptions when presented, but I've come to believe that everyone is entitled to their harmless delusions....including me. I like the nominal theists I've engaged with here.

At this point, I consider this to be my online community, but since I've been tossed from two ostensibly "open" lists, I prudently keep my options open with JM and my other "hideaway". I think that vm and liv probably have a better understanding of me and my style online than most other list operators.

I like being able to "think what I want and say what I think." Although that includes being able to cast an occasional insult, I've found that endless repetitious badmouthing is boooooring. It's static that adds nothing to the discourse.

I like being able to converse with interesting and thoughtful fellow humans who have something worthwhile to offer up about the world they inhabit with me. I learn things and I get to impart some of my opinions....which I, of course, think pass as "knowledge".

When the static becomes too great, I'll wander away. When the exchange level becomes too slow and belabored, I'll wander away. If the content of the conversations become too simplistic or egregiously malevolent, I'll wander away. If the moderation refuses to allow me to express myself adequately, I'll usually be banned. So be it.

Clear guidelines that are consistantly enforced are a big plus. Guidelines that allow a lot of latitude in expression are appreciated. No hypocrisy is good, too; what is expected of the regular participants should also be expected of those in authority - model the expected behavior. Interesting participants who have something intellectually stimulating to offer tops it all off. That's why I'm here.

godfry

[livius drusus]

Wow, godfry; that was a really wonderful post. Thank you. I'm genuinely honored and so pleased to have you here.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

Wow, godfry; that was a really wonderful post. Thank you. I'm genuinely honored and so pleased to have you here.

heh... You say that now. Just you wait.

I must say that I am still truly gratified with your intercession in the shit-slinging session betwixt vm and I in HH. I don't think I've yet repaid you for your patience and willingness to read carefully what I had written.

vm I appreciate because of his forthright honesty...at least with me. We have a fair amount of commonality in our styles. That's a comfort factor for me.

I'm comfortable here...for now. Thanks, I'm honored to be here.

godfry

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

vm I appreciate because of his forthright honesty...at least with me. We have a fair amount of commonality in our styles. That's a comfort factor for me.

Thanks, I see a lot of similarity myself, and I really liked your post above too.

I'm comfortable here...for now. Thanks, I'm honored to be here.

I'm glad to have you here and glad you like it. And I assure you that even if that were to change, you would not be banned for anything short of violating the rules. So basically no posting kiddie porn, viruses or copyrighted stuff and you're golden.

[Ronin]

Great post godfry.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Farren

Well I only know I joined one forum to take part in a discussion about the Iraq war (IIDB), got to know Christ-on-a-Stick, who is my ultimate favourite Internet person, then followed her to another forum, from which I followed the people I subsequently got to know here.

That's the sum total of my forum experiences - wait, I lie. I signed up on the Morrowind game forum because I was doing a lot of Morrowind modding and I briefly flirted with Mykeru.com because of DoctorX's little drama on HH, but found there were too few users there to keep me coming back for a look-see.

So my own forum experience has been almost entirely selecting forums based on topical issues being discussed and where the really A-grade and super amazing people are, like here.

dude, morrowwind is my favorite rpg of all time. I played it on xbox. I would probably get it for my pc i I knew where to get good mods for it.

my character is god like, called beyelzu naturally. fighter type, maxed out. I have quit playing it but I could only go up maybe 4 more levels. most of my major and minor skills are maxed and all my stats except luck are maxed and I killed vivec.

god I loved that game.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

So basically no posting kiddie porn, viruses or copyrighted stuff and you're golden.

those were going to be my next three posts you bastard, with your rules and your standards.


your infringing on my rights to free speech.



oh wait, you say that this is your boards.


my bad.