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  #501  
Old 02-03-2015, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I am a couple of days behind the curve but this may be the most infuriating thing that I have read in the New York Times in the past year and that is saying something. I have added some emphasis.
Quote:
Tobias has endured chickenpox and whooping cough, though Ms. McMenimen said the latter seemed more like a common cold. She considered a tetanus shot after he cut himself on a wire fence but decided against it: “He has such a strong immune system.”

...

As Ciel Lorenzen, a massage therapist, picked up her children, Rio, 10, and Athena, 7, at Lagunitas Elementary, she defended her choice to not vaccinate either of them, even as health and school officials urged a different course.

“It’s good to explore alternatives rather than go with the panic of everyone around you,” she said. “Vaccines don’t feel right for me and my family.”
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  #502  
Old 02-03-2015, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Meet America's latest Anti-Vaxers,
Rand Paul (he's heard stories gais, Stories!) and Chris Christie.
Rand Paul links vaccines to 'mental disorders'; Christie argues for 'choice' - vagazette.com
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  #503  
Old 02-03-2015, 10:12 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Is this the emerging zombie apocalypse? A bunch of slow-moving dullards shambling around and ultimately causing everyone to become infected? Lurching stupidly towards the destruction of humanity as we know it?
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  #504  
Old 02-03-2015, 01:20 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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  #505  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Rand Paul receives vaccine; retardation link cannot be ruled out

So many toxins :sadno:
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  #506  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

If you don't have enough examples of hypocrisy every year they take away your libertarian card.
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  #507  
Old 02-04-2015, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

He just needs to do a kale wrap in a bakram sauna and he can sweat out the disease.
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  #508  
Old 02-04-2015, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

As someone with children under 5 living in measledom, it is lots of fun. A good portion of my mom friends are crunchy and don't put chemicals in their children. The other significant portion would prefer scarlet V's for the unvaccinated. As someone who not only injects chemicals into her child, but also requires they eat, bathe, and breathe them, my facebook feed has been lovely lately.
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  #509  
Old 02-04-2015, 02:12 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Man, I am (or thought I was) as mad as the next guy about anti-vaxxers, but I have been seeing some really scary and often really uninformed witch hunting lately that makes me worry. Like people who don't know there even is such a thing as a medical exemption and who want to do violence to anyone who doesn't vaccinate their kids no matter what the reason.

Some of these guys seem even less informed than the anti-vaxxers, and they're just making me nervous, I tells ya.

And less immediately but maybe more long-term troubling, I've seen people denying that there are any potential side effects at all, which is really only serving to further distance those whose kids have had bad reactions and who know that's not true. I don't know if people are just really misinformed or if they're intentionally lying, but if everyone is demonizing those parents, all it'll accomplish is to make the whole thing look like a giant conspiracy theory.
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  #510  
Old 02-04-2015, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

The internet seems to either breed or give easy voice to people who totally think that not only is their opinion absolutely right but that all they need to do is think and the answer will pop into their heads and it's their duty to share it with the world.
(in other words, it's white dude complex time).

I've often wondered if the ubiquity of comments on internet articles has overinflated people's importance of their own opinion and they then must vomit their opinion on everything while ignoring everyone else's comment vomit. It's made it even easier for people to reaffirm their beliefs without challenge. I've noticed on some news sites "Top commenters" often have the most ignorant things to say.

I was recently posting on a facebook article thread about vaccines and it was clear that over half the people never read the article (it had a bait and switch title, something like 'Why I haven't vaccinated my child' and upon reading you see because he's too young and the author is pro-vaccination) and even more obvious that many people just posted their ignorant, knee jerk, comment and then never came back. At least it made it funny when anti-vaxers would be like "I agree with this article, which is why I've exposed my child several times to diseases but would never vax them, props to you author!" and Vax supporters would occasionally (although way less than anti-vaxer) post "OMG WTF author, you're the worst kind of human imaginable for not vaccinating your child!"
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  #511  
Old 02-04-2015, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
Man, I am (or thought I was) as mad as the next guy about anti-vaxxers, but I have been seeing some really scary and often really uninformed witch hunting lately that makes me worry. Like people who don't know there even is such a thing as a medical exemption and who want to do violence to anyone who doesn't vaccinate their kids no matter what the reason.

Some of these guys seem even less informed than the anti-vaxxers, and they're just making me nervous, I tells ya.

And less immediately but maybe more long-term troubling, I've seen people denying that there are any potential side effects at all, which is really only serving to further distance those whose kids have had bad reactions and who know that's not true. I don't know if people are just really misinformed or if they're intentionally lying, but if everyone is demonizing those parents, all it'll accomplish is to make the whole thing look like a giant conspiracy theory.
I think that the problem with the "but there are side effects" side is that people don't define what they are talking about. Some people are talking about vaccine reactions, up to and including anaphylactic shock. Some people are talking about vaccine injuries, like food sensitivity and autism and red hair and allergies to cats.
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  #512  
Old 02-04-2015, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Originally Posted by wildernesse View Post
I think that the problem with the "but there are side effects" side is that people don't define what they are talking about. Some people are talking about vaccine reactions, up to and including anaphylactic shock. Some people are talking about vaccine injuries, like food sensitivity and autism and red hair and allergies to cats.
Yeah, that's true, but I've also been noticing an escalating True Believer sort of rhetoric around vaccines, and some pretty misinformed people taking it up. I saw one person say that anyone with a "real" medical exemption would be constantly hospitalized, and a whole lot of people, including Obama, sloppily saying that there are no legitimate reasons to be unvaccinated. And there are some pretty dumb pro-vaxxers (or anti-anti-vaxxers or whatever) out there getting frothed up and talking about identifying unvaccinated kids or even (basically) kidnapping them and having them vaccinated themselves, and stuff like that.

Anytime you get such huge numbers of people getting so polarized about something, there is a big risk of violence.
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  #513  
Old 02-04-2015, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Yeah, I don't get the enraging factor about being unvaccinated. Not that I get the conspiracy paranoia about the evils of Vax either, but that is just the usual applied to health Care.

I don't know, Im just too tired to care. Take care of your kids or not, just don't put it in my lap.
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  #514  
Old 02-04-2015, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I keep expecting that, as this is the U.S., some parent is going to sue the parents of an unvaccinated kid for infecting their precious spawn. The minute there's a death, the lawyers will be all over it.
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  #515  
Old 02-04-2015, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Sadly I don't foresee a case where one family could be sued.

Suing a school, however, for not having a policy of excluding unvaccinated kids or not enforcing it correctly (while the school is simultaneously being sued by antivaxxers for trying to exclude their progeny) ... that seems quite likely.
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  #516  
Old 02-04-2015, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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  #517  
Old 02-04-2015, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I just looked it up, and Slate has an article about just that. It's not super comprehensive or anything, but it's evidence that people have had the idea.

The schools, I dunno. It's really hard to sue government entities. I don't know about private schools, though. Schools obviously have information about which kids are vaccinated and which aren't, but how much of that can or should they be revealing to third parties, either implicitly or explicitly? Should they be treating unvaccinated kids differently depending on the reasons for it? Like would there be different levels of ostracization or something? It seems like any across the board policy about that would end up discriminating on the basis of religion and medical condition, but unevenly applied policies would be weird at best, and would have a level of editorial content implied.
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  #518  
Old 02-05-2015, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Today's parents aren't scared enough because they didn't live through annual polio and measles and mumps outbreaks. I am scared for them, because I fear only death or brain damage will wake them up.
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  #519  
Old 02-05-2015, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
I just looked it up, and Slate has an article about just that. It's not super comprehensive or anything, but it's evidence that people have had the idea.
That's a pretty good article, and I think not a bad idea. I don't know of anything special about the choice not to vaccinate a child (and degrade herd immunity, and turn that child into a vector and send them out into the world) that should necessarily operate to relieve individuals of responsibility for the foreseeable consequences of their actions. If I take the top off of a jar of malarial mosquitoes in the middle of the kindergarten class, surely there is some breach of duty there, even if I really seriously truly sincerely believe that mosquitoes ought not be in jars. (Even if that's not a breach of a statutory duty, like the duty to present evidence of immunization when enrolling a child in a public school.)
Quote:
The schools, I dunno. It's really hard to sue government entities. I don't know about private schools, though. Schools obviously have information about which kids are vaccinated and which aren't, but how much of that can or should they be revealing to third parties, either implicitly or explicitly? Should they be treating unvaccinated kids differently depending on the reasons for it? Like would there be different levels of ostracization or something? It seems like any across the board policy about that would end up discriminating on the basis of religion and medical condition, but unevenly applied policies would be weird at best, and would have a level of editorial content implied.
I don't think children who are not vaccinated due to a medical exemption should be treated differently or ostracized because of it. Children who are not vaccinated because they are immunocompromised, for example, would more likely be receive closer medical attention routinely due to the underlying reason for the medical condition. (They would also be more likely to incur dramatic and severe health consequences from exposure to diseases that may be more or less innocuous to children with normal immune systems - including but not limited to those diseases like measles, mumps, and rubella, against which children can be easily vaccinated, and the transmission of which is facilitated by degraded herd immunity.) The health risk to those children increases as fewer healthy individuals are vaccinated.

I don't think that children who are not vaccinated due to a religious exemption should necessarily be treated differently or ostracized because of it, but neither do I think that there should necessarily be a religious exemption (or whatever obsequious euphemism the state legislature may choose). I haven't done extensive inquiry, but I don't believe the Constitution requires it. I think Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon vs. Smith, 494 U.S. 872 (1990) would apply to a generally applicable rule; I also think that the public health would be constitute a compelling state interest in this case. While the Constitution does not require such an exemption, many states have them at statute, which I think is just bad policy. I think it's a bad idea to expose a large population of children to public health risks because of whatever made-up nonsense their parents have chosen to believe, whether that nonsense is god or pseudoscience. I judge those parents harshly because I think their choice is morally blameworthy, like exposing a child to polio or tetanus would be. I don't lose a lot of sleep over that.

I suppose an alternative would be to require those parents, prior to enrolling their child(ren) in school, to take out a policy of insurance sufficient to cover losses, damages, and costs arising from an outbreak of disease caused by their negligence. The bigger the school, the higher the premium. That way, you would avoid socializing the risks that arise from harmful beliefs and conduct. I could live with that.

Here is the across-the-board policy that doesn't discriminate: parents or guardians enrolling their children in public schools must present evidence of required immunizations or a medical exemption from such requirement for immunization. Vaccinations should be free and easily available on demand. Editorial content is implied, and can even be explicit: controlling outbreaks of serious disease is important.

Denying children access to public education because of their parents' choices is a big deal and not fair to the affected child. Parents should think very carefully before inflicting that deprivation on their children. That child has a very strong interest in access to education - but I'm not sure that individual interest outweighs the collective interest of that child's prospective classmates in (a) remaining healthy and (b) not having to miss school due to disease. Or the interest of an immunocompromised child in not suffering severe health consequences from a preventable disease. I concede that a parent's personal beliefs may (and do) permit parents to cause their children to incur unnecessary risk; I don't concede that a parent's personal beliefs permit them to cause other people's children to incur unnecessary risk.

I don't think the government should force children to be vaccinated. But I also think it's entirely reasonable to require observance of some basic public health measures in order to access public resources. If parents don't want to access those resources, that's ok too. Like the Amish, where there are pretty regular outbreaks of preventable diseases, like polio and mumps and measles and rubella and whooping cough, but they're not going around and touching and licking everybody else's pencil cases all the time.

Last edited by ChuckF; 02-05-2015 at 03:15 AM.
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  #520  
Old 02-05-2015, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I've also decided that people who are not vaccinated should not be allowed to marry or adopt children, in order to protect the children. Children of unvaccinated couples (or even couples where one member is not vaccinated) will be at higher risk for communicable disease first because they are not vaccinated, and second because their parent(s) may be an additional source of infection. This risk includes diseases with potentially serious outcomes, such as polio. These outcomes may include sterility (as in the case of mumps), which would undermine the procreative purpose of marriage, with respect both to the parents and the children. In addition, these diseases could cause an unstable family environment in which the child may not flourish. I think most Republicans would agree with me that the state can regulate the domestic relationship and the institution of marriage, especially in order to protect children and preserve the procreative purpose of marriage.
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  #521  
Old 02-05-2015, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Quote:
I also think it's entirely reasonable to require observance of some basic public health measures in order to access public resources. If parents don't want to access those resources, that's ok too.
This. There are alternatives to public school-like homeschooling and private schools- that people already take advantage of for belief and/or religious reasons. Also, with things like bans on peanut products being brought in lunches, public schools remove a choice from the majority to protect the health of those few students with severe allergies. Kiddo's tiny school has at least one kid who underwent cancer treatment, and I assume larger schools have some immunocompromised children just as they do those with severe food allergies.
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  #522  
Old 02-05-2015, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
things like bans on peanut products being brought in lunches
You have that?
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I am of two minds about banning unvaccinated kids from schools. On the one hand, I want to protect the other children from infection, so it's a good thing. On the other hand, home schoolers use the library all the time and I don't want those little cesspools of infection anywhere near me.

My sister pointed out that, as a private company, Disney could easily require proof of vaccination for entry. I wonder if they would.
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  #524  
Old 02-05-2015, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I can see it now. Amusement parks, theaters, restaurants, concert halls, etc. All of them requiring that patrons present proof of vaccination before entering the premises. I am going to have to go out and get vaccinated for everything all over again because I have no idea what happened to my vaccination record. It's either that or choose between staying home or frequenting disease infested anti-vax dive-bars.
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Old 02-05-2015, 07:53 PM
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lisarea lisarea is offline
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Think of all the Make a Wish kids they'd have to turn away if they did that across the board, though. They'd be more likely to make it proof of either vaccination or an accepted category of exemption.
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