We Have Banned latinijral

[Petra]

Originally Posted by pescifish

I believe truly ignoring him might have made the difference given enough time,...

Possibly. Although given that there are new members signing up all the time and even old members who cannot be here often enough or for long enough each visit to be totally briefed on the need to ignore latinthingy, he will always find someone to feed his trollishness and take his bait.

[Legs]

I'm gonna miss that man

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by warrenly

Frankly, I'm glad. I was this close *fingers held a couple millimeters apart* to abandoning FF because of this particular poster.

Indeed; if someone REALLY wants to, they can make the ignore feature useless by overwhelming the rest of the board. The ignore feature means I don't see the CONTENT of his posts, but that doesn't stop him from drowning out discussion with his monotone microwave beeps. Liv, thank you very much for making a decision I can live with.

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by pescifish

I believe truly ignoring him might have made the difference given enough time, but in a group of people, that sort of discipline doesn't seem possible. It's hard to ignore when being singled out as target: either for charming flirtatious attention or for the abuse.

Indeed, I think ignoring him COULD have worked, in the long run. But it would have taken weeks imho, weeks in which he'd continue to escalate and drown out discussions. I don't think there'd be much left by the time he got bored.

[viscousmemories]

There are a couple key problems with the ignore solution, I think.

On the one hand it's kind of like saying we could change the world if we could convince everyone in the Western hemisphere to jump in the air at precisely 3:15 pm on Tuesday. Well, yeah, but it's a little difficult to coordinate.

Also, as mentioned the ignore features are currently technically and theoretically flawed. First, a troll gets at least one jab in at everyone who hasn't previously encountered him before they know to ignore him. Second, when someone quotes a troll in response then people who are ignoring him are still subject to reading his posts. And third, you have those ugly "ignored post" markers everywhere he posted. Not to mention that there are areas of the board (article, journal and gallery comments) where to the best of my knowledge the ignore features aren't currently functional.

We'll definitely be fixing these software issues as we're able, but still we're going to be faced with the apparently inevitable fact that just about everyone will at one time or another throw a bone to a troll, and all it takes is a bone or two a day to keep 'em around.

Or so it seems to me... hopefully we can keep talking and brainstorming about this in the coming days and weeks and make this the last time we have to invoke the nuclear option to solve a troll problem.

[Dingfod]

At first, I engaged the poor devil in relatively polite dialog, asking him to support his accusations and the like. When that obviously wasn't going to happen, honestly, I thought being decidedly insulting to him might make him go away, he seemed to avoid interaction with beyelzu for what I thought was that reason. I suppose since that never worked on me, I should not have assumed it work on him. Then, when that failed, I thought ignoring him would be the answer. It not only did not work, he spread his infection further and further into the group, including into the galleries, perhaps even the journals, I don't know. Given more time, he may well have made this forum worse and worse until people started leaving because of him, as it crossed my mind to do so.

That being the case, I still think this is a bit of a sad moment for viscous memories and livius drusus. I know for a fact that banning someone basically on general principle to promote free interaction can eat one up with thoughts of what one could've done differently, what other action might have been taken, what else might have been said, and all. So, viewing things from the limited experience I have in this area, I did not envy the decision they had to make regardless of which way it had been decided. There was really no good outcome to be had, only the lesser of two bad ones.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I think we're all losers now that you've banned him. It's a sad day.

Well, I don't see it that way.

He won. He set out to prove that you would not be able to run the board according to your stated goals and principles, and he's succeeded. You've given in to the mob, "He goes or I go" mentallity and shown yourselves (in his eyes) to be hypocrites.

Maybe he won in the sense that he achieved something he wanted to achieve. But I don't see that we lost. I'm glad that we have admins with some flexibility and I always thought that there were many things about this board that would be 'worked out when a situation arose', rather than spending hour upon hour trying to hash out what to do in a plethora of hypothetical situations. And so, this situation arose and they made a decision. I guess I see 'dealing with things as they come up' as a principle of this board and it has been upheld quite satisfactorily as far as I'm concerned.

He will be laughing at us now.

Maybe so, but if he is it doesn't bother me in the least.

We banned him for breaking no rule.
What sort of Free Thought is that? Think what you like, and say what you think ... (unless the majority disagree with you, in which case we'll ban your ass).

I don't see what isn't Free Thinking about banning someone who hasn't broken any rules, on the basis that they are incorrigibly disruptive. The admins needn't be 'slaves' to their rules. Hey, they made the rules and it's their board.

I think I was among the minority of regular posters here who really did ignore him. I didn't use any of the fancy schmantzy ignore facilities. I just didn't bother to read most of his posts, and when I did read them I didn't take the bait.

I saw them and wondered a little what anyone gets out of posting that way; they didn't really bother me either. What does bother me is that new people won't necessarily realize that they are not being singled out for hostile treatment and may take it personally. Although, I suppose I could take the approach: they'll figure it out. All they have to do is look at all his posts. That's what I usually do when I see a post that seems odd, to get some 'context'. It's easy enough to do from a person's profile page.

It seems that real people like us are unable to live up to the ideals we set ourselves. We all have feet of clay, I guess.

I would rather say that it's best to be flexible and learn and grow and change; that's part of the joy of being human.

Helen

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

It seems that real people like us are unable to live up to the ideals we set ourselves. We all have feet of clay, I guess.

I love you all!

Better than concrete galoshes. What were we supposed to do, let him destroy this board?

[pescifish]

Originally Posted by Corona688

Indeed, I think ignoring him COULD have worked, in the long run. But it would have taken weeks imho, weeks in which he'd continue to escalate and drown out discussions. I don't think there'd be much left by the time he got bored.

Yes, I agree.

I am very glad that livius and vm banned him and the point in time they did it matches when I would have done it, as well.

And my concurrence with the banning and how it was handled comes even though I have no interest in social experiments or true free speech or any other lofty principles when it comes to a privately run social forum. Their actions match what I would hope my host/hostess at a party would do with a big disruptive jackass.

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

There are a couple key problems with the ignore solution, I think.
... to all>...
We'll definitely be fixing these software issues as we're able, but still we're going to be faced with the apparently inevitable fact that just about everyone will at one time or another throw a bone to a troll, and all it takes is a bone or two a day to keep 'em around. Or so it seems to me...

Thank you both for being willing to make those hard decisions and, as always, I trust your judgment.

[Petra]

Well, I'm not hand-wringing over this decision at all. I'm totally of the "you made your bed, you lie in it" school of thought on this one. Latinithingy is responsible for his own banning. His banning is the consequence of his own words and actions. Life is full of consequences. He made his bed, he chose his path, he cooked his own goose, and all those other relevant adages that can be applied here.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by warrenly

At first, I engaged the poor devil in relatively polite dialog, asking him to support his accusations and the like. When that obviously wasn't going to happen, honestly, I thought being decidedly insulting to him might make him go away, he seemed to avoid interaction with beyelzu for what I thought was that reason. I suppose since that never worked on me, I should not have assumed it work on him. Then, when that failed, I thought ignoring him would be the answer.

Yeah, I engaged him at first too. I have I think 20 posts on his "Warning:" thread. Honestly I think that's the problem with trolls. We all think that maybe if we do this or that it might make a difference, but it never does. All it does is give him what he craves the most: Attention. It doesn't matter if you're nice to him, mean to him, talking about him, laughing at him, starting threads about him, making digs at him on other threads, etc. What you say and where you say it doesn't matter, just as long as it's about him.

So for what it's worth I really don't blame anyone for how they interacted with him. I know we all did what we thought was best under the circumstances. I don't think it's even possible to get everyone in a group to agree to a single specific course of action, much less to stick to it through a shitstorm.

[ceptimus]

I trust liv's and vm's judgement too. It's just a dammed shame that it only takes one asshole like latinijral to prove that a free speech forum is an ideal not workable in reality.

I think that software solutions to this troll problem will never really work: we will probably never unanimously agree that someone is a troll; there are those of us who might enjoy responding to trolls - perhaps seeing troll responding as one aspect of free speech; and there will be people who don't know the history of posters like latin, and will respond to him the way they would to any other argumentative poster.

The many ignore features already available here seem to have been largely ignored. When a troll pushes people's buttons, they often decide that they don't want to ignore.

I think it comes down to either:

• Accepting the ideals of free speech and recognising that will allow disruptive posters to make a mess of, and perhaps ruin, the forum.
• Having an arbitrary, "We'll ban anyone who causes too much trouble, even if they've not broken one of the other rules" rule, either stated or unstated.

It seems we've gone for the latter option. Perhaps it's the lesser of two evils.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

It's just a dammed shame that it only takes one asshole like latinijral to prove that a free speech forum is an ideal not workable in reality.

In what way does banning latinijral prove that free speech forums are not workable in reality?

... any other argumentative poster.

He had no argument to respond to! Insults do not an argument make.

I think it comes down to either:

• Accepting the ideals of free speech and recognising that will allow disruptive posters to make a mess of, and perhaps ruin, the forum.

• And what does ruining the forum accomplish in the name of free speech? Are we to be so blinded by ideology?

  Having an arbitrary, "We'll ban anyone who causes too much trouble, even if they've not broken one of the other rules" rule, either stated or unstated.

This forum has been in operation for a year now and a total of ONE person has been banned, and not lightly. I do not believe we are on some slippery slope to arbitrary bannings of unpopular people who hold unpopular ideas!

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

It seems we've gone for the latter option. Perhaps it's the lesser of two evils.

That's pretty much what I was saying.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I don't think it's even possible to get everyone in a group to agree to a single specific course of action, much less to stick to it through a shitstorm.

To me there seems to be something ironic about expecting a group to agree on anything on a freethinkers board.

Helen

[Skep]

I support vm and liv on what must have been a gut-wrenchingly difficult decision to make. If it's any consolation, I don't feel that any principles of free expression of ideas have been compromised. It is beyond me how behavior like that of a shit-flinging gorilla at a zoo can be interpreted as free speech/expression in any meaningful way.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by lunachick

This forum has been in operation for a year now and a total of ONE person has been banned, and not lightly.

Actually he was the sixth if you count spammers. We even have a Banned Users list these days.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by HelenM

To me there seems to be something ironic about expecting a group to agree on anything on a freethinkers board.

Helen

LOL! True, Helen, so very true.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by Skep

I support vm and liv on what must have been a gut-wrenchingly difficult decision to make. If it's any consolation, I don't feel that any principles of free expression of ideas have been compromised. It is beyond me how behavior like that of a shit-flinging gorilla at a zoo can be interpreted as free speech/expression in any meaningful way.

Yup, I'm with you.

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

I trust liv's and vm's judgement too. It's just a dammed shame that it only takes one asshole like latinijral to prove that a free speech forum is an ideal not workable in reality.

I would say that some sorts of free speech are more valued here than others. Free speech from those who show some interest in positively interacting with others is valued. Free speech from those who almost exclusively want to be disruptive evidently is not.

I don't see the point in holding to 'ideals' that create a paradise for trolls at the expense of those who want interactions that are more mutually satisfying.

Helen

[Ymir's blood]

I agree with the decision made and would like to thank both of the admins for taking the stance that they did. However, it must be understood that my personal views about moderation are contrary to theirs.

[Petra]

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Actually he was the sixth if you count spammers. We even have a Banned Users list these days.

Ooops, I forgot about them.

[Gurdur]

Originally Posted by livius drusus

We're torn too, Crumb, and I really wanted to ride it out a little longer, but we're low enough traffic that one person can in fact define the forum interaction and when his abuse is the most recent post on 80% of the index, the cost-benefit analysis doesn't really justify retaining him.

And this was the crucial point. You left out a major extra point -- once latinijral started creating new threads holus-bolus, you were faced with a minor crisis.

It sucks shit all around. I'm so sorry.

When you two have stopped whipping yourselves, I would like to add my own opinion.
It was and is a very interesting experiment, what you're doing here in the FF; it's not an experiment I would agree with, but it's a very interesting one.

The one point of (minor) failure was I think you failed to drum through to everyone the power of your ignore features, and especailly how you expected people to use them; had you done this, say through automatic PM to everyone and stickies in your forums, the expermient may have run better at that stage.

But let's be honest -- latinijral was nothing more than a minor blip in things, and you are completely free to get back to getting your experiment to work successfully; just because there was a minor upset does not mean your experiment is not worth it, nor does it mean it is a failure, nor does it mean you should whip yourselves.

IOW, how you dealt with latinijral now was determined by other factors, and says nothing about how you would deal with a latinijral in the future.

[JoeP]

I am unaccountably saddened, as though someone, or a pet rather, has died.

By unaccountably I mean I don't really know why or what about. Rambling will now commence ... I have some sympathy for cep's feelings, but I think not for the same reason.

I like Zikes' attempt to align the banning with rule #1. The proper functioning of the forum was perhaps compromised. But was it really? I for one thought it was working. I had him on ignore and I didn't experience the sense of disruption others have experienced. Maybe there were places it didn't work; does ignore work for gallery posts? Apparently not according to my quick visit to the pic of ES's quoted. With more technology (coding) couldn't the principle of individual control of the experience be made effective enough? I don't know the answer to that but I'm sure together we do. Even with the current features, I am taken aback to find the sledgehammer being used so soon. Several people have asked if we couldn't have allowed more time, and I ask that too (not only in the hope of latin softening: I see enough evidence that he wouldn't have done, but for the community to ignore him collectively).

I don't feel he's won, and I don't care what he's thinking now, and in fact I don't think the board is any the worse; I wasn't going to leave because of his activities and I don't feel any inclination to leave because of the banning. There is still a great bunch of people here, a community, damn good features, and the smilies.

But something has died. Not free speech or free thought (I could make a case for latin not thinking freely and what he posted not being "speech" in a sense) , not the whole of the "experiment", not the entire philosophy, just a facet of it, being able to create a board without gagging and banning outside pre-existing rules. And we haven't lost. But this something is stone-cold dead.

[viscousmemories]

Originally Posted by Gurdur

The one point of (minor) failure was I think you failed to drum through to everyone the power of your ignore features, and especailly how you expected people to use them; had you done this, say through automatic PM to everyone and stickies in your forums, the expermient may have run better at that stage.

I think that's a very good point, and something I think we'll remedy at the same time we tighten the ignore features to make it easier to really ignore someone.

But let's be honest -- latinijral was nothing more than a minor blip in things, and you are completely free to get back to getting your experiment to work successfully; just because there was a minor upset does not mean your experiment is not worth it, nor does it mean it is a failure, nor does it mean you should whip yourselves.

Thanks.

IOW, how you dealt with latinijral now was determined by other factors, and says nothing about how you would deal with a latinijral in the future.

Very true. I don't know if we'll come up with a solution, but it won't be for a lack of trying.