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  #5726  
Old 11-23-2016, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Neil Z. Miller collaborates with aliens, so it's entirely possible that he has an affiliation and no affiliation at the same time. :yup:
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  #5727  
Old 11-23-2016, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Encyclopedia of American Loons: #950: Neil Z. Miller & Gary S. Goldman

:yup:
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  #5728  
Old 11-23-2016, 09:02 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

No But! That's just a way not to have to look at the research by anyone who is concerned about the vaccine schedule. Look at the study.
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  #5729  
Old 11-23-2016, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

:lol: Z-MAN is back! Gadzooks!
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  #5730  
Old 11-23-2016, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
No But! That's just a way not to have to look at the research by anyone who is concerned about the vaccine schedule. Look at the study.
peacegirl, why have you quoted more crazy people? Do you deliberately seek out people who probably need to be getting medical care for their delusions, or is it entirely coincidence each time?
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  #5731  
Old 11-24-2016, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

I think peacegirl and Neil Z. Miller are somewhat simpatico. They've both written rather plodding loony books full of nonsense babble that each (apparently) expected to be embraced as genius, and now find themselves in the unenviable position of trying to get people not only to believe that nonsense babble is true, but also to spend money on it. It's a tough sell. So they've alloyed their respective products with some anti-vax bullshit to pitch to the anti-vax crowd, who will believe pretty much anyone and anything that tells them what they want to hear.

Unfortunately, I think the nexus between the Corrupted Text and the anti-vaxxers will need to be tightened up quite a bit before peacegirl sees a bump in sales. The burden of doing the work to add these corruptions will fall on peacegirl, as these are made up whole cloth by her. I know she's not a fan of working. But let's give her a chance and see how she does.

Ironically, the Authentic Text would probably sell pretty well just for its novelty hoot value.
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  #5732  
Old 11-24-2016, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! :love:
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  #5733  
Old 11-24-2016, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

We had a Thanksgiving dinner as part of our granddaughters birthday party on Sunday, and we are going to have another one tomorrow (actually today by your clock). Happy Thanksgiving.

What are you thankful for?
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  #5734  
Old 11-24-2016, 11:38 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
If you try to pick apart the mistakes, the atrocious English, the conflations, the fallacies and the baseless claims you have to write about one paragraph for every half sentence Peacegirl writes. Just look at this example:

Quote:
you cannot tell me that they know enough about the vaccines they are creating in combination or in frequency.
Grammatically it makes no sense. It hints at all kinds of myths about the immune system that anti-vaxxers perpetuate: the short version us that they do not seem to realize that the immune system has to deal with more as a result of ten minutes in a sandbox than from the entire vaccine schedule combined. It basically just tries to say there are too many of them twice by saying "in combination or in frequency" which adds to the clumsy verbiage...
That is not clumsy verbiage. "In combination" means the number of vaccines given in one shot. " "Frequency" means the rate these vaccines are given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
... unless she is claiming vaccines somehow react with each other? How is that supposed to work? Are we talking live-virus vaccines swapping RNA here or something?
No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a negative synergistic effect depending on the amount of vaccine doses given.

Immunization schedules and vaccine doses

A literature review was conducted to determine the immunization schedules for the United States and all 33 nations with better IMRs than the United States.9,10 The total number of vaccine doses specified for infants aged less than 1 year was then determined for each country (Table 2). A vaccine dose is an exact amount of medicine or drug to be administered. The number of doses a child receives should not be confused with the number of ‘vaccines' or ‘injections' given. For example, DTaP is given as a single injection but contains three separate vaccines (for diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis) totaling three vaccine doses.

<snip>

Conclusion
The US childhood immunization schedule requires 26 vaccine doses for infants aged less than 1 year, the most in the world, yet 33 nations have better IMRs. Using linear regression, the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined and a correlation coefficient of 0.70 (p < 0.0001) was found between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants. When nations were grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges (12–14, 15–17, 18–20, 21–23, and 24–26), 98.3% of the total variance in IMR was explained by the unweighted linear regression model. These findings demonstrate a counter-intuitive relationship: nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.

Efforts to reduce the relatively high US IMR have been elusive. Finding ways to lower preterm birth rates should be a high priority. However, preventing premature births is just a partial solution to reduce infant deaths. A closer inspection of correlations between vaccine doses, biochemical or synergistic toxicity, and IMRs, is essential. All nations—rich and poor, advanced and developing—have an obligation to determine whether their immunization schedules are achieving their desired goals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Amazing how much half-understood garbage you can pack into one sentence. And it takes absolutely zero competence to consume too. And no-one wants to read the rebuttal because it takes ten times as long and is not very emotive, spectacular, or simple. Besides, apparently now it is "controversial"!

A lie can travel around the world before the truth has even got it's boots on!
Remember that! :zomg:
Once again you make my case for me: you just quoted a study we have already discussed. It turned out they were very selective in what data they included: some countries that did not fit the result they wanted were omitted, and if I recall correctly they also left out certain years... and those years happened to yield data that did not fit their conclusion.

You are once again spreading misinformation because you happily quote whatever seems to agree with what you already think is true, without adequately checking them for reliability or quality.

In fact, even when the flaws in such information are pointed out to you, you do not retain it or change your mind... even about the study!

But of course everyone else has closed minds.

Funnily enough I do not think there could be any combination of data that would change your mind... can you think of a study that could?
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  #5735  
Old 11-24-2016, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
If you try to pick apart the mistakes, the atrocious English, the conflations, the fallacies and the baseless claims you have to write about one paragraph for every half sentence Peacegirl writes. Just look at this example:

Quote:
you cannot tell me that they know enough about the vaccines they are creating in combination or in frequency.
Grammatically it makes no sense. It hints at all kinds of myths about the immune system that anti-vaxxers perpetuate: the short version us that they do not seem to realize that the immune system has to deal with more as a result of ten minutes in a sandbox than from the entire vaccine schedule combined. It basically just tries to say there are too many of them twice by saying "in combination or in frequency" which adds to the clumsy verbiage...
That is not clumsy verbiage. "In combination" means the number of vaccines given in one shot. " "Frequency" means the rate these vaccines are given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
... unless she is claiming vaccines somehow react with each other? How is that supposed to work? Are we talking live-virus vaccines swapping RNA here or something?
No, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a negative synergistic effect depending on the amount of vaccine doses given.

Immunization schedules and vaccine doses

A literature review was conducted to determine the immunization schedules for the United States and all 33 nations with better IMRs than the United States.9,10 The total number of vaccine doses specified for infants aged less than 1 year was then determined for each country (Table 2). A vaccine dose is an exact amount of medicine or drug to be administered. The number of doses a child receives should not be confused with the number of ‘vaccines' or ‘injections' given. For example, DTaP is given as a single injection but contains three separate vaccines (for diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis) totaling three vaccine doses.

<snip>

Conclusion
The US childhood immunization schedule requires 26 vaccine doses for infants aged less than 1 year, the most in the world, yet 33 nations have better IMRs. Using linear regression, the immunization schedules of these 34 nations were examined and a correlation coefficient of 0.70 (p < 0.0001) was found between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants. When nations were grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges (12–14, 15–17, 18–20, 21–23, and 24–26), 98.3% of the total variance in IMR was explained by the unweighted linear regression model. These findings demonstrate a counter-intuitive relationship: nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.

Efforts to reduce the relatively high US IMR have been elusive. Finding ways to lower preterm birth rates should be a high priority. However, preventing premature births is just a partial solution to reduce infant deaths. A closer inspection of correlations between vaccine doses, biochemical or synergistic toxicity, and IMRs, is essential. All nations—rich and poor, advanced and developing—have an obligation to determine whether their immunization schedules are achieving their desired goals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Amazing how much half-understood garbage you can pack into one sentence. And it takes absolutely zero competence to consume too. And no-one wants to read the rebuttal because it takes ten times as long and is not very emotive, spectacular, or simple. Besides, apparently now it is "controversial"!

A lie can travel around the world before the truth has even got it's boots on!
Remember that! :zomg:
Once again you make my case for me: you just quoted a study we have already discussed. It turned out they were very selective in what data they included: some countries that did not fit the result they wanted were omitted, and if I recall correctly they also left out certain years... and those years happened to yield data that did not fit their conclusion.
Show me exactly where this was done. And show me the proof that there is no possibility of a synergistic toxicity with the many vaccines now given in one injection. And show me where infant mortality isn't higher in the US where infants are given the most vaccines. This doesn't prove causation, but it certainly has to make one wonder what is going on. This takes into account premature mortality statistics yet the US still has a high infant mortality rate in comparison to other developed countries who don't have such an aggressive vaccine schedule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
You are once again spreading misinformation because you happily quote whatever seems to agree with what you already think is true, without adequately checking them for reliability or quality.
What about the information you're using. The manufacturers themselves admit vaccines are unavoidably unsafe. We're playing a game of Russian Roulette. Have you read the inserts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
In fact, even when the flaws in such information are pointed out to you, you do not retain it or change your mind... even about the study!

But of course everyone else has closed minds.

Funnily enough I do not think there could be any combination of data that would change your mind... can you think of a study that could?
We are all biased in one direction or another. What bothers me is the conviction that all of these scourges were wiped out because of vaccines and without all these vaccines, these pandemics will return. I don't believe that's true. Vaccines don't protect against diseases that come from dirty water, poor sanitation, cramped living conditions, etc.

It's not about closed minds. It's about looking at both sides and determining what is the safer risk. There is nothing wrong with questioning the safety and efficacy of vaccines and whether there are safer alternatives. In fact, it's a very wise thing to do.

POLIO VACCINE FAILS IN INDIA DUE TO POLLUTED DRINKING WATER

By MB June 13, 2013

This Bloomberg article reveals that the polio vaccine is a failure in India. The vaccine is ‘failing to work’ in kids getting as many as 15 doses of Oral Polio Vaccine (OPV) in one of the most expensive public health campaign flops in history ($9 billion).

What do you expect when these poor people are drinking contaminated water and walking barefoot through raw sewage?

The number one lesson that any first-year public health student should know by heart is that clean water and sanitation were the primary solution for the eradication of formerly-common infectious diseases in developed countries. A prime example is London. Londoners used to get cholera due to fecal contamination of drinking water (as recently as 1855). London had an infant mortality rate of 50%. Dr. John Snow figured out that cholera was being transmitted by sewage-contaminated drinking water. The British Parliament allocated funds to a sewage system built by chief engineer Joseph Bazalgette. End of problem.

You might think that if authorities could figure out the basic relationship between contaminated water and infectious disease 160 years ago, modern-day public health officials would be able to see the same problem in developing countries today and apply the solution (sewers and clean water). You would be wrong.

Instead we have a cabal of vaccine fanatics, led by Bill Gates, GAVI and the World Health Organization (WHO) who insist on inflicting never-ending vaccination programs on poor people who lack clean drinking water and sewers. This Bloomberg article reveals that (surprise, surprise) their vaccine programs are failing.

cont. at: Polio vaccine fails in India due to polluted drinking water | The Refusers

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  #5736  
Old 11-24-2016, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Show me exactly where this was done.
This is where you respond to the last time this got very carefully explained to you:

Freethought Forum - View Single Post - Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Thank you for your hard work at analyzing the data. Maybe it wasn't as robust as it could have been.
Which is a mealy-mouthed, half-arsed response to what is blatant manipulation of data by people with an agenda.

But apparently all that effort was wasted: even if someone does all the work for you and feeds it to you in bitesized portions, you still happily quote it again later.


Quote:
show me the proof that there is no possibility of a synergistic toxicity
You illustrate my point better than I could ever hope to do once again.

That is not even possible for two glasses of water. The standard you require to be convinced of what you do not want to believe is impossibly high: meanwhile just the fact that it is possible to imagine a risk to do with vaccines is enough to confirm your belief, an enormously low standard.

Quote:
It's not about closed minds.
Amazing - because you are constantly accusing people of that. Usually when they point out you are once again quoting garbage or spouting irrational nonsense again.

Meanwhile you show time and time again that there is no possible way to make you change your mind: you require impossible levels of evidence for that, while accepting incredibly low quality information that supports what you want to believe.

Quote:
It's about looking at both sides and determining what is the safer risk. There is nothing wrong with questioning the safety and efficacy of vaccines and whether there are safer alternatives. In fact, it's a very wise thing to do.
This is another very interesting thing that happens a lot lately: the balance fallacy.

Balance fallacy - RationalWiki

Taking a balanced view between two groups with different points of view on whether bigfoot is causing global warming will not lead you to the answer that is most likely to be correct, and yet that is exactly the approach you propose here.
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  #5737  
Old 11-24-2016, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
This Bloomberg article reveals that (surprise, surprise) their vaccine programs are failing.

cont. at: Polio vaccine fails in India due to polluted drinking water | The Refusers

[/I]
So they are giving the Polio-vaccine to fight Polio but people are either not getting the effect of the vaccine or are getting sick from other diseases. How does this indicate the failure of the Polio vaccine if it is reducing the number of cases of Polio that the vaccine is intended to eliminate, cases of some other strain of Polio doesn't mean anything to the information.
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  #5738  
Old 11-26-2016, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Quote:
Show me exactly where this was done.
This is where you respond to the last time this got very carefully explained to you:

Freethought Forum - View Single Post - Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl
Thank you for your hard work at analyzing the data. Maybe it wasn't as robust as it could have been.
Which is a mealy-mouthed, half-arsed response to what is blatant manipulation of data by people with an agenda.
I don't think his analysis was as poorly constructed as was claimed. He even said that more work has to be done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post

Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
The study, entitled Infant mortality rates regressed against number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?, was conducted by Neil Z. Miller and Gary S. Goldman. It was published in the reputable Human and Experimental Toxicology journal, which is indexed by the National Library of Medicine.
Dissection of the paper here.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherina
...the way Miller and Goldman are counting vaccines is completely arbitrary and riddled with mistakes.

Arbitrary: they count number of vaccines in US bins (DTaP is one, hib is separate) and non-specific designations (some “polio” is still given as OPV in Singapore), rather than antigens. If they did that, Japan, still giving the live bacterial vaccine BCG, would immediately go to the top of the list. That wouldn’t fit the agenda, of course. But if you go by “shot” rather than by antigen, why are DTaP, IPV, hepB and hib counted as 4 shots for example in Austria, when they are given as Infanrix hexa, in one syringe?

Mistakes: The German childhood vaccination schedule recommends DTaP, hib, IPV AND hepB, as well as PCV at 2, 3 and 4 months, putting them squarely into the 21 – 23 bin. The fourth round of shots is recommended at 11 to 14 months, and MenC, MMR and Varicella are recommended with a lower age limit of 11 months, too, which means that a number of German kids will fall into the highest bin, at least as long as you count the Miller/Goldman way.
Miller and Goldman only looked at one year’s data. There are many years worth of data available; if such a relationship between IMR and vaccine doses is real, it will be robust, showing up in multiple analyses from multiple years’ data. Moreover, the authors took great pains to look at only the United States and the 33 nations with better infant mortality rates than the U.S. There is no statistical rationale for doing this, nor is there a scientific rationale. Again, if this is a true correlation, it will be robust enough to show up in comparisons of more nations than just the U.S. and nations with more favorable infant mortality rates. Basically, the choice of data analyzed leaves a strong suspicion of cherry picking. Were I reviewing this paper, I would insist on the use of one or two other data sets. For example, I would ask for different years and/or perhaps the use of the rankings by the United Nations Population Division, which can be found in the Wikipedia entry containing the list of countries by infant mortality rate. And I would insist on doing the analysis so that it includes several nations with worse IMRs than the U.S. Indeed, since the focal point of the analysis seems to be the U.S., which, according to Miller and Goldman, requires more vaccine doses than any other nation, then it would make sense to look at the 33 nations with worse IMRs than the U.S.
...>snip<...
...the authors removed four nations, Andorra, Liechenstein, Monaco, and San Marino, the justification being that because they are all so small, each nation only recorded less than five infant deaths. Coincidentally, or not, when all the data are used, the r2=.426, whereas when those four nations are excluded, r2 increases to 0.494, meaning that the goodness of fit improved. Even so, it’s not that fantastic, certainly not enough to be particularly convincing as a linear relationship. More dubiously, for some reason the authors, not content with an weak and not particularly convincing linear relationship in the raw data, decided to do a little creative data manipulation and divide the nations into five groups based on number of vaccine doses, take the means of each of these groups, and then regraph the data. Not surprisingly, the data look a lot cleaner, which was no doubt why this was done, as it was a completely extraneous analysis. As a rule of thumb, this sort of analysis will almost always produce a much nicer-looking linear graph, as opposed to the “star chart” in Figure 1. Usually, this sort of data massaging is done when a raw scatterplot doesn’t produce the desired relationship.
...>snip<...
Infant mortality in developed countries is not about healthy babies dying of treatable conditions as in the past. Most of the infants we lose today are born critically ill, and 40 percent die within the first day of life. The major causes are low birth weight and prematurity, and congenital malformations.
...>snip<...
...infant mortality is defined as the fraction of children who die before one year of age and many infants lost die very early, many of them have had few or no vaccines, given that the bulk of the U.S. vaccine schedule does not really start until two months of age. In other words, no effort was made to determine if there was actually any sort of correlation between vaccine dose number whether the infants who died actually died at an age where they would be expected to have received most of the vaccines required within the first year.

He addressed this: Preterm birth rates in the United States have steadily increased since the early 1980s. (This rise has been tied to a greater reliance on caesarian deliveries, induced labor, and more births to older mothers.) Preterm babies are more likely than full-term babies to die within the first year of life. About 12.4% of US births are preterm. In Europe, the prevalence rate of premature birth ranges from 5.5% in Ireland to 11.4% in Austria. Preventing preterm births is essential to lower infant mortality rates. However, it is important to note that some nations such as Ireland and Greece, which have very low preterm birth rates (5.5% and 6%, respectively) compared to the United States, require their infants to receive a relatively high number of vaccine doses (23) and have correspondingly high IMRs. Therefore, reducing preterm birth rates is only part of the solution to reduce IMRs.6,32

...>snip<...
comparing vaccination schedules to nation-level infant mortality rates is the very definition of an ecological analysis.
...>snip<...
To make this jump from group-level to individual-level data is The Ecological Fallacy, which can be defined simply as thinking that relationships observed for groups necessarily hold for individuals.
...>snip<...
...Miller and Goldman’s ecological analysis virtually guaranteed overestimating any relationship found...

He addressed this: Ecological bias occurs when relationships among individuals are inferred from similar relationships observed among groups (or nations). Although most of the nations in this study had 90%–99% of their infants fully vaccinated, without additional data we do not know whether it is the vaccinated or unvaccinated infants who are dying in infancy at higher rates. However, respiratory disturbances have been documented in close proximity to infant vaccinations, and lethal changes in the brainstem of a recently vaccinated baby have been observed. Since some infants may be more susceptible to SIDS shortly after being vaccinated, and babies vaccinated against diarrhea died from pneumonia at a statistically higher rate than non-vaccinated babies, there is plausible biologic and causal evidence that the observed correlation between IMRs and the number of vaccine doses routinely given to infants should not be dismissed as ecological bias.
...>snip<...
Add to that the fact that they only used one data set and didn’t even include nations with higher IMRs than that of the U.S.
Poorly constructed paper that fails basic criteria for accuracy.
I don't know if this would have changed the results as he tried to compare nations with large populations so the numbers would be accurate, an apple to apple comparison. Even if his testing could have been better constructed, it doesn't mean that vaccines are not related to higher infant mortality rates even when premature infant deaths are taken out of the equation. I cannot dismiss the strong possibility that there is a connection between the number of doses of vaccine given in one syringe, and IMR. Moreover, there have been no scientific studies to prove that 6 or 8 vaccines given during one office visit doesn't cause a greater synergistic toxicity than a single vaccine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
But apparently all that effort was wasted: even if someone does all the work for you and feeds it to you in bitesized portions, you still happily quote it again later.
Of course I do. Just as the scientific testing cannot adjust for all of the variables including individual constitution, neither can any study meet such high standards, even Miller's. Nevertheless, I would rather err on the side of caution. Given Miller's study of 33 countries, the US ranks low, even if he didn't include smaller countries which could have skewed the results making it appear that there is no correlative relationship.


Quote:
show me the proof that there is no possibility of a synergistic toxicity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
You illustrate my point better than I could ever hope to do once again.

That is not even possible for two glasses of water. The standard you require to be convinced of what you do not want to believe is impossibly high: meanwhile just the fact that it is possible to imagine a risk to do with vaccines is enough to confirm your belief, an enormously low standard.
The benefits of the vaccine has to also be weighed, not just the low risk. I don't agree that vaccines saved the world. Many scourges and plagues disappeared BEFORE vaccines were introduced. To start off with the premise that without everyone being vaccinated (and that means ALL vaccinations according to the latest vaccine schedule or the government considers you not vaccinated) all of the horrific diseases will come back with a vengeance, is the justification that allows the vaccination program to go forward unchecked, but it has not been proved. Small pockets of outbreaks do not an epidemic make, nor a pandemic. Nor can we blame the unvaccinated for everything under the sun. It seems that they are using these small outbreaks (where no one even died) to exaggerate the benefits of being fully vaccinated. It's all about agenda. :yup:

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It's not about closed minds.
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Amazing - because you are constantly accusing people of that. Usually when they point out you are once again quoting garbage or spouting irrational nonsense again.

Meanwhile you show time and time again that there is no possible way to make you change your mind: you require impossible levels of evidence for that, while accepting incredibly low quality information that supports what you want to believe.
I don't consider the research done by vaccine critics of low quality, especially when the checks and balances are present.

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It's about looking at both sides and determining what is the safer risk. There is nothing wrong with questioning the safety and efficacy of vaccines and whether there are safer alternatives. In fact, it's a very wise thing to do.
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
This is another very interesting thing that happens a lot lately: the balance fallacy.

Balance fallacy - RationalWiki

Taking a balanced view between two groups with different points of view on whether bigfoot is causing global warming will not lead you to the answer that is most likely to be correct, and yet that is exactly the approach you propose here.
I don't have to find the answer for me to take a conservative stance on the possible connection between vaccines and chronic illness and injury. Yes, there could be other environmental factors, but I cannot set aside the possibility that vaccines are a contributing factor. Once again, you are entitled to do what you think is the best for your children. That's how it should be.
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

VACCINES AND GENETIC MUTATION
Harold E. Buttram, MD; Susan Kreider, RN; Alan R. Yurko
October 11, 2002

[Editor's note: This article contains one internet-linked reference that is currently broken. We are attempting to locate this file. But, due to the importance of this information, we decided to post the article meantime. Please forgive any inconvenience.]

Introduction

The writers of this article make no claims of being authorities in the fields of genetics or immunology, but being non-experts may at times carry an advantage in that, viewing more from a distance, one may sometimes perceive things that escape those more closely involved in the details and complexities of a field or fields. This may be true for the interactions of vaccines with the human immunology and genetics, about which science truly knows very little.

This article does review the work of three pioneer researchers in this field, John Martin, PhD, MD, Howard B Urnovitz, PhD, and Dr. MG Montinari, work which shows fairly convincing evidence that genetic changes are being found in some patients in whom vaccine reactions appear to be causally involved. There are no claims that this evidence constitutes proof of genetic change from vaccines. What we do hope to establish from the work of these researchers is that it is both possible and plausible that subtle, widespread genetic changes may be taking place as a result of current childhood vaccine programs, possibly already affecting large portions of our children.

The burden of proof for vaccine reactions should not rest on parents, as it does now in our medical-legal system. The burden of proof for the safety of vaccines; that is, that the vaccines are NOT causing adverse genetic changes, should rest on the manufacturers, federal and state government health agencies, and the schools who are now mandating the vaccines. Until this matter is settled, does anyone at any level truly have the right to force vaccines in ever growing numbers on a generation of children?

Basic Immunology for All Ages

Although the technical intricacies of the human immune system are extremely complex, the principles of their operations are the essence of simplicity and might be compared to the fortifications of a Medieval castle. Using this analogy, first there might be outlying outposts with sentinels, then a moat, then the main castle wall, and finally the inner defenses surrounding the castle itself, in which reside a royal family. The latter of course represents the human genetic system, which the human immune system is designed to protect at all costs.

The sentinels would be represented by a subdivision of lymphocytes (a form of white blood cell), which are called “memory cells” because of their having memory for former exposures to foreign invaders, and which will begin an explosion of cloning on re-exposure to the same invader. The main castle wall would be represented by the mucous membranes of the respiratory and gastrointestinal tract, and the inner defenses by the antibody-producing plasma cells (another form of white blood cell) located in the bone marrow.

Immunity

Cellular Immunity

cont. at: Vaccines & Genetic Mutation
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Old 11-27-2016, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Great intro by vaccines cause shaken baby syndrome Buttram.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Introduction

The writers of this article make no claims of being authorities in the fields of genetics or immunology, but being non-experts may at times carry an advantage in that, viewing more from a distance, one may sometimes perceive things that escape those more closely involved in the details and complexities of a field or fields. This may be true for the interactions of vaccines with the human immunology and genetics, about which science truly knows very little.
So the fact that they don't know anything about the subject qualifies them to criticize the topic.

Also they don't know anything about human immunology and genetics so they assume that science doesn't know anything either.

Sounds a lot like Peacegirl's father.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

VACCINES - THE GREATEST MEDICAL FRAUD IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND! - YouTube
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

peacegirl, should I watch this video? Does the author of the video collaborate with aliens? Do they believe in homeopathy? In the past, I have been dissapointed by those you consider reliable!
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:12 PM
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peacegirl, should I watch this video? Does the author of the video collaborate with aliens? Do they believe in homeopathy? In the past, I have been dissapointed by those you consider reliable!
I can't promise you that you will be satisfied by this telling video. I have no idea Dragar. My hope is that you keep an open mind. If you feel there is no justification for the correlation between vaccines and any chronic illness, then view this thread as bogus. If that is the case, MOVE ON!
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Old 11-27-2016, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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VACCINES AND GENETIC MUTATION
Harold E. Buttram, MD; Susan Kreider, RN; Alan R. Yurko
:lol:

Repeat violent offender, burglar and child murderer.
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Frontiers | Vaccination and Health Outcomes: A Survey of 6- to 12-year-old Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Children based on Mothers’ Reports | Child Health and Human Development
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Old 11-27-2016, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Self selected survey of parents of homeschooled children. The best information out there.

I wanted to read the article, although I suspect there's already a criticism by someone more qualified than me. However, the link doesn't have the full article.
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Old 11-27-2016, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
VACCINES AND GENETIC MUTATION
Harold E. Buttram, MD; Susan Kreider, RN; Alan R. Yurko
:lol:

Repeat violent offender, burglar and child murderer.
peacegirl, why have you decided to use as source a child murderer who seems to have tried to use his anti-vaccination propaganda as a way of covering up his crimes?

Do you think Alan R Yurko is a sound and reliable source?
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

peacegirl, as a concerned grandmother, would you leave your infant grandchild alone in the care of your source Alan R. Yurko?
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Old 11-27-2016, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Proof children have magical powers, based on mother's reports.
The Indigo Child and How to Recognize One
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