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  #26  
Old 04-29-2011, 11:59 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

It gets worse. To quote the title of this Balloon Juice post, "second-class citizens deserve second-class ballots":

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A new provision added last night would now require voters whose legitimacy is challenged by poll watchers to cast provisional ballots with no opportunity at the polls to defend themselves and cast a regular ballot.
A simple sworn statement that the voter is not eligible is enough to force any voter to accept a second-class ballot. Wow.

Conservatives in Ohio (like Florida) instituted a strict voter ID regimen based on conservative and media claims of voter fraud. A lot of us said at the time that voter ID laws wouldn’t solve the voter impersonation fraud problem because there was no voter impersonation fraud problem. As predicted, the voter ID laws in Ohio and Florida have had no effect at all, the unsupported claims continue, and are now being used to justify still more draconian measures. This is not at all surprising, because it was never about fraud.

Conservatives and media invented a problem: voter impersonation fraud. They then solved the imaginary problem with strict ID regimes. We’re now moving to enact further laws based on the original, unsupported claim of “voter fraud”, although the “solutions” to the original accusation (ID laws) were put in place. Sound familiar?

Facts don’t matter in this one-sided debate, because it was never about voter fraud, just like the birth certificate “controversy” conservatives and media invented was never about official state records of birth.

With that, I’d suggest that voters should start protecting their own right to vote. If you’re a registered voter and are handed a second-class ballot, start with the presumption that you hold a right that is being summarily denied without a hearing.

Voting is a right (conservatives and media are wrong on the facts, law and history here: a trifecta of wrong) and any person who hands a voter a second-class ballot should have to defend that decision. I’d suggest that voters themselves “flip the script” when denied a first-class ballot and ask the poll worker questions that start with the presumption that the targeted voter is not guilty of fraud. If you’re handed a second-class ballot ask to see the specific rule that guided that decision and then ask if there’s any way under the rule(s) that you may cast a first-class ballot in that election.

That’s the way to approach the process because, despite conservative and media claims to the contrary, voting is not like cashing a check or using a debit card. Those are commercial transactions. Voting is not like driving because driving is a privilege. Voting is a right, and whether you own property or hold accounts or are state licensed to drive an automobile has no bearing whatever on that right.

You’re not at the counter at the DMV, bickering over your car registration. People died for this right, and the liberal position that one valid vote denied is one too many is an absolutely crucial counter to the conservative and media position that denying one or many eligible voters the franchise is no big deal.
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  #27  
Old 05-08-2011, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Florida Bill Could Muzzle Doctors On Gun Safety : NPR

Quote:
Florida Gov. Rick Scott is expected to sign a bill that will make the state the first in the nation to prohibit doctors from asking patients if they own guns. The bill is aimed particularly at pediatricians, who routinely ask new parents if they have guns at home and if they're stored safely.

Pediatricians say it's about preventing accidental injuries. Gun rights advocates say the doctors have a political agenda.
Asking if you have guns around children and that they're stored safely and properly = OPPRESSION OF GUN OWNERS

:facepalm:

Oh well, I guess it just means less little NRA members in the future.
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  #28  
Old 05-08-2011, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

There are many things which are routinely found in houses in the US which you don't really want kids to get a hold of.

We have little plastic covers on the power outlets, for example, to prevent the kid from inserting something metal into them and getting an electrical shock. Knives kept nice and out of reach.

Why ask specifically about firearms?

The reverse bill (mandating that pediatricians ask about firearms) had a few tries in the California legislature.

Forcing doctors to all kids about guns
Quote:
Californians balked last year when Assemblyman Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, proposed a substantially similar bill to Senate Bill 765 by Sen. Wesley Chesbro, D-Santa Rosa. Sent to the "suspense file" in the Senate Appropriations Committee yesterday, SB 765 resurrects a concept eventually removed from the vetoed Steinberg bill -- codification of the American Academy of Pediatrics publication "Recommendations for preventive pediatric health care." That report specifically includes recommendations made in the AAP's 1999 publication, "The Role of the Pediatrician in Youth Violence Prevention in Clinical Practice," which outlines measures to be taken by pediatricians in violence prevention, including advocacy of gun-control proposals.
There is definitely politics involved, on both sides.

It's not about the oppression of gun owners as much about the villification of guns. That they are so non-routine that they must specifically be asked about.

[Edit: I had a look at the guidelines, and the recommendation is to advise about safety hazards. Make sure that the parents know of the dangers of swimming pools, bicycle accidents, firearms, and so on. There is no need for a specific question of "do you own a firearm?" They can be covered in the same advice issuance as the rest and such advice does not seem to be prohibited by the proposed legislation]

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Last edited by California Tanker; 05-08-2011 at 08:21 PM.
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  #29  
Old 05-09-2011, 05:09 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California Tanker View Post
It's not about the oppression of gun owners as much about the villification of guns. That they are so non-routine that they must specifically be asked about.
So this question is objectionable because asking if there are firearms in the house might implicitly give the impression that some people don't own guns? Well, I'm afraid I have some news that might come as a shock to you....

To use your own analogy, I'd have no objection to a pediatrician asking me if I owned a swimming pool because not everyone has one. I wouldn't take it as an implication that swimming pools were somehow reprehensible things to have, and how dare I unabashedly assert that I am the owner of a swimming pool. To take a simple question from a medical professional in that light savors more than a little of paranoia.

Honestly, I support individual gun rights, and even I have to say that you're really, really reaching here.

Looking at it frankly and in the cold light of reason, how could anyone assume that a group as varied and numerous as all the doctors in Florida somehow have a united political agenda to demonize private gun ownership? That isn't even a proposition worthy of serious attention.

If it bothers you so much, you could always say "None of your business" and the doctor would have no right to force any other answer from you.

Last edited by Nullifidian; 05-09-2011 at 05:21 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-09-2011, 06:42 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Yahbut gun owners, in spite of all their manly projectile shootingness from phallic objects, have their widdle feewings hurt if pediatricians imply that there could be some danger in keeping guns around young children and that they might not approve.

Obviously this is an issue that requires the government to step in, rather than the gun owners simply finding a new doctor, or just saying that it's none of the doctor's business.

Even if you think doctors shouldn't ask that question, I find it hard to justify a law that they CAN'T ask that question.
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  #31  
Old 05-09-2011, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Pediatricians routinely ask about car seats, outlet covers, cabinets and their contents, pools/bodies of water, nutrition, discipline methods, allergen exposures etc. during what is called anticipatory guidance, which is an effort to educate parents about health and wellness issues related to their children. Asking about firearms in the home during this is not remotely odd. Yes, they can go over stuff in a general way, but why waste a lot of time talking about stuff that isn't pertinent to that individual family?

Since accidents of all kinds are a major cause of death of children in first world countries, why shouldn't their health care provider be free to talk about various dangers?
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  #32  
Old 05-10-2011, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Looking at it frankly and in the cold light of reason, how could anyone assume that a group as varied and numerous as all the doctors in Florida somehow have a united political agenda to demonize private gun ownership? That isn't even a proposition worthy of serious attention.
From the American Academy of Pediatrics, which I believe is the largest association of such doctors and issues guidelines.
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...103/1/173#SEC3

Quote:
Pediatricians should advocate for:

<snip>

• reduced availability or elimination of handguns in all communities through handgun regulation and public education
Now, if you can find a similar statement from medical bodies saying that their members should advocate that swimming pools or low power outlets should be eliminated as a matter of policy, then I'll accept that there's no political bent to it.

I have no doubt that there are Florida pediatricians who like guns. They may not be asking the question. (Indeed, the fact that the California legislature considered mandating that the question be asked, I've no idea if it passed or not, implies that some pediatricians will not, in spite of the guidelines of their professional body)

Quote:
Yes, they can go over stuff in a general way, but why waste a lot of time talking about stuff that isn't pertinent to that individual family?
If it's a common enough hazard to be worth asking if they have such an item, it's probably also common enough to warrant mentioning even if the individual family doesn't have one.

It is not beyond the realms of probability, for example, that just because you don't have a swimming pool in your garden, you're not going to go to your parents' house or neighbour's house who does have one and parents should be aware of the dangers. Take the bus everywhere and don't own a car? Still worth talking about car seats in case you rent a car on holiday. Similarly, just because you don't own a firearm now doesn't mean that you're not going to go out and buy one the following day. These are all common hazards, and should be all worthy of discussion by default.

[Edit, after doing a little more digging.
The AMA's position also is, as a professional body, in favour of gun control, but apparently silent on restricting swimming pools.
Pediatric practice based evaluation of the Steps t... [Inj Prev. 1999] - PubMed result reports on the effectiveness of the AAP program designed to encourage a decrease in firearm ownership.

The 'none of your business' answer has been the advocated response for the last few years, at least to the specific questions of "How many, what type, and where are they stored?" Incidents such as the Massachussets doctor who asked a five-year-old these questions, and then filed a police report to verify the (legal) ownership of the firearms have reinforced that idea. However, it seems that what started the push in Florida was a doctor's response to that answer in 2010 being "Fine, then, go find another doctor."

If the position of the doctors was just 'ask if there are firearms, and go/no go with advice on co-existance depending on the answer', that's one thing. But because the professional organisations have made it a policy issue, and because the questions often go further than that yes/no question (and are sometimes accompanied by a citing of statistics of how dangerous things are if you keep your gunin order to encourage the removal of the firearm) that has made the question far more politically sensitive than it should be. I think the law as proposed is a little overreaching, it should limit the questioning on firearms, not prohibit it. But on the other hand, medical profession has brought it on itself by getting into the politics of it.

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Last edited by California Tanker; 05-10-2011 at 04:37 AM.
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  #33  
Old 05-10-2011, 04:48 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Why shouldn't the doctor be allowed?

maybe he hates guns because a mugger killed his parents and at night he dresses up as a possum and brings gunless vengeance to the streets.

The point being why should he government be involved in this?

It is especially ironic this kind of shit is brought by the same people who think that the civil rights act of sixty four was wrong. so the real persecuted protected class is gun owners.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:03 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
"Fine, then, go find another doctor."
Do you have a problem with this answer? What about when it is given to parents who choose not to vaccinate? The AAP also has policies on encouraging vaccination. Is that also problematic in your view?

I personally think talking to and teaching kids about guns is the best safety method, but I don't have a problem with doctors taking steps to prevent accidental gun deaths.
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:48 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

I really, really like it when politicians try to get inbetween say a doctor, or therapist and their patient, that always works well..

Not that I know anything at all about that, as a woman and stuff.
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  #36  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
at night he dresses up as a possum and brings gunless vengeance to the streets.
!?

Quote:
Do you have a problem with this answer?
Depends on whether he/she charged for the visit.

He/she's presumably an independent individual, entitled to alienate all the customers he/she wants to. As a matter of professionalism, it's a stupid reason for a family to have to go through the hassle of finding a new doctor.

Quote:
What about when it is given to parents who choose not to vaccinate? The AAP also has policies on encouraging vaccination. Is that also problematic in your view?
Not really the same threshold though, is it? A vaccination decision has a direct effect on health. Refusing to answer specific questions on a non-health matter is far less critical.
It seems that even the doctors themselves can't come to an agrement on if the vaccine issue is ethical or not and that's at presumably a higher standard of importance.

Docs Turn Away Unvaccinated Patients - ABC News
Quote:
According to a 2001 American Academy of Pediatrics survey, 23 percent of physicians reported that they "always" or "sometimes" tell parents they can no longer be the child's pediatrician if they won't get the proper shots
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-parents.html

Quote:
Others say the opposite because it punishes the wrong party.

Samuel Katz, MD, of Duke University, says it wasn't right to refuse seeing a child 'because it is the parent who is the problem, whereas the child merits medical care.
As this person puts it
Pediatricians refuse to treat non-vaccinating patients (Opinion)
Quote:
Why then are parents not allowed to refuse their doctor's advice with regards to vaccines? It is virtually unheard of that a doctor would refuse care to a patient because he or she smokes, drinks heavily, engages in dangerous activities, or consumes a diet which could ultimately lead towards heart disease, cancer or diabetes.
Government regulation of the ethics of medical practice is not new, even though the doctors are private individuals, and generally revolves about what you cannot do.

Quote:
I really, really like it when politicians try to get inbetween say a doctor, or therapist and their patient, that always works well..

Not that I know anything at all about that, as a woman and stuff.
Never had a male doctor come onto you? I'm pretty sure that's banned by the government.

Quote:
is especially ironic this kind of shit is brought by the same people who think that the civil rights act of sixty four was wrong. so the real persecuted protected class is gun owners
Not that I consider the people of DU to be particularly rational, but I doubt that they would constitute the above demographic.
Doctor Gives Ocala Family Discharge Papers when they refuse to answer question - Democratic Underground

A fair few there saying the Doc's wrong.

From the local paper:
Ocala woman refused service from pediatrician for gun | Ocala.com

Quote:
The American Association of Pediatrics urges pediatricians to ask questions of parents about gun ownership when they get children's medical histories and to suggest that parents remove guns from the home
Do they suggest that swimming pools be filled in? That's not AAP recommending safety tips for co-existance, that's recommending the removal of firearms.
(To answer the question: AAP - TIPP: Pool Safety for Children, no, they don't)
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Last edited by California Tanker; 05-10-2011 at 09:08 AM.
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  #37  
Old 05-10-2011, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Ct,

that was an absurd take on batman. Obviously batman dresses as a bat and not a 'possum but I was being absurd.

My point was only that surely the doctor should be allowed to have personal beliefs and act on them.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Also, Ct,

Here in the great state of GA we have the "Women's Right to Know Law" which requires a doctor who is going to perform an abortion to tell the woman that there is a link between breast cancer and abortion when in fact there is none.

The right is fine with inserting the law into the examination room so long as it furthers their own agenda.

Short, short version. Gunowners are not a protected class and nor should they be.
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  #39  
Old 05-10-2011, 02:56 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
A vaccination decision has a direct effect on health
Not necessarily. Unvaxed kids may never be exposed to or catch a disease for which there is a vaccination. Kids with guns in the house may never get shot with it.

Some unvaxed kids will get a serious disease, and some kids with guns in their home will die by accidental gun shot.
Quote:
It seems that even the doctors themselves can't come to an agrement on if the vaccine issue is ethical or not and that's at presumably a higher standard of importance.
So what's your point? It's a fair comparison, IMO because of what I said above.

Only 23% say they won't treat unvaxed kids.
How many doctors turn away families with guns?

Doctors can refuse to treat people for their own moral or ethical reasons, and sometimes they do. How many occurrences are needed before someone feels there needs to be a law about it?
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
Also, Ct,

Here in the great state of GA we have the "Women's Right to Know Law" which requires a doctor who is going to perform an abortion to tell the woman that there is a link between breast cancer and abortion when in fact there is none.

The right is fine with inserting the law into the examination room so long as it furthers their own agenda.
In that case, it's (a) bad science, and (b ) is a direct medical statement which you would expect to count as direct interference with a doctor doing their job of practicing medicine, which, in order to do that, undertook training and examination. A different kettle of fish.

Quote:
Short, short version. Gunowners are not a protected class and nor should they be.
I am not claiming that they are, at least, not beyond any Constitutuional protections as applied to the government and public law. As a matter of policy, however, doctors should not go beyond treating firearms in a similar manner to any other hazard. The more controversial laws involving government interference in medical practice tend to be those which are designed to discourage a specific behavior: Show ultrasound of foetus before abortion or, the breast cancer thing. Though I think the current purposed law goes a bit too far, the intent is actually the reverse: To stop any doctors so inclined (and the positions of their professional bodies indicates that there are some) from discouraging firearms ownership.

If we agree that bringing politics into the medical room is a bad thing, and I think we do, then you can see why it's become a sensitive issue for gun owners. That it is some doctors trying to get into the political agenda side of things should not make it any more acceptable than some politicians doing it. At least you expect it from politicians.

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Old 05-10-2011, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
So what's your point? It's a fair comparison, IMO because of what I said above.
I would submit that there are a number of differences.

Firstly, it's their lane. If you wanted to put an expert witness on the stand to testify on the pros and cons of getting a vaccine, it's probably going to be a doctor or statistician. If you want to put an expert witness on the stand to testify on the pros and cons of keeping a firearm in the house, it's more likely that you'd replace 'doctor' with 'sociologist' or 'public official.'

Secondly, the primary person being affected by the decision to vaccinate or not vaccinate is the patient, the person the doctor is being paid to attend to and who he or she has agreed to work for. Benefits to people other than the patient, though they certainly exist, are incidental. The reverse is the case when it comes to firearms in the home, they predominantly affect people other than kid, the instances of kids being shot tend to be more incidental to the other uses of the firearm.

Finally, the only viable conscious decision which can be made which can affect whether or not a kid gets an ailment is the vaccination. There is a definite and distinct correlation between the two, and it's an act which can be done or not done, and pretty much the doctor is going to know which. Insofar as a safety brief from a doctor on the best practises on firearms safety with a kid in the house has any effect at all (and according to the report I linked to earlier, that seems not to be a given*, it's not as if the doctors are going to houses and inspecting compliance), the issuance of those guidelines is not dependant on the asking of various verbal or written questions.

NTM

*"This study was unable to demonstrate a statistically significant decline in gun ownership or improvement in gun storage after a practice based intervention designed to encourage these behaviors"
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Firstly, it's their lane. If you wanted to put an expert witness on the stand to testify on the pros and cons of getting a vaccine, it's probably going to be a doctor or statistician. If you want to put an expert witness on the stand to testify on the pros and cons of keeping a firearm in the house, it's more likely that you'd replace 'doctor' with 'sociologist' or 'public official.'
Public health officials, like the CDC, who maintains cause of death stats.

Death by gunshot is a public health and safety issue, agreed? Like car seats or bicycle helmets? We have laws requiring use of these public health and safety devices, but no laws requiring use of gun safety devices like trigger locks or locked cabinets.

Why is gun safety different than car safety in your opinion?
Quote:
the instances of kids being shot tend to be more incidental to the other uses of the firearm.
Oh? Do you have the statistics? Specifically how many kids are shot accidentally every year, because they were playing with a gun at their own home or the home of someone else?

Quote:
*"This study was unable to demonstrate a statistically significant decline in gun ownership or improvement in gun storage after a practice based intervention designed to encourage these behaviors"
So how about making safe gun storage laws? Would that be acceptable to you? Then the doctors could be first line reporters to law enforcement as with abuse.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

I understand why gun owners are :butthurt: over their sensitive areas. They don't like the fact that doctors are allowed to be judgmental about their decisions.

But I still think the law is stupid.

But I'd be willing to accept this stupid law in exchange for a law that requires doctors to give women accurate information about abortion and contraception and prohibits them from expressing subjective or inaccurate anti-abortion or anti-contraception views.

All of a sudden the doctor's conscience would return to being of paramount importance in Florida, I'm sure.
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2011, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

I own guns, CT. I don't have any problem with my kid's pediatrician asking me about it, just as she asked about water safety due to our proximity to a river.
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Old 05-10-2011, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Also there is a big difference between a professional body's recommendations, and a state legislature's laws, which any one versed in law should be aware of.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Public health officials, like the CDC, who maintains cause of death stats.
Maybe. Not all CDC members are doctors. I can also see why members of a police force may also be brought in, for example, to testify on the effects on crime.

Quote:
Death by gunshot is a public health and safety issue, agreed? Like car seats or bicycle helmets? We have laws requiring use of these public health and safety devices, but no laws requiring use of gun safety devices like trigger locks or locked cabinets.
Every time I go to the Netherlands I am relieved by the sight of many hundreds of Dutch adults and children not being forced to wear bicycle helmets in the most bicycle mad country I've ever been to and grate upon the fact that California has a different take on the subject. However, yes, I will agree that gunshot death and injury is a public safety issue to be taken into consideration when formulating government policy and law. It is also not the only issue to be taken into consideration, however.

Quote:
Why is gun safety different than car safety in your opinion?
Are pediatricians asking what sort of car it is, how many, and where it's stored?

Quote:
Oh? Do you have the statistics? Specifically how many kids are shot accidentally every year, because they were playing with a gun at their own home or the home of someone else?
A quick google around seems to indicate the figure of some 60 children under age 10 killed (so presumably also add in a bunch wounded) accidentally by firearm in 1998. I can probably find more modern info, but I doubt it's going to be much different.

However, most firearms are not kept lying around the house for the purposes of the child's use or injury, thus making such events incidental to the purpose of them.

Quote:
So how about making safe gun storage laws? Would that be acceptable to you?
Depends on how the law is framed. Mandating that the firearm is locked up is a legal non-starter, courtesy of Heller. An effect-based law would be far more acceptable. For example, here in California, you may be guilty of a misdemeanour or felony if a child under 18 years of age obtains and uses your firearm resulting in injury or death, or carries it to a public place. It is up to the parents/guardians to figure out how to attain that end result. The parents can choose to sell it, take it off-site, lock it up, keep it out of reach, wear it 24/7, or just train the kid to not shoot people or take it into public. How they get to the end-state is irrelevant, as long as it's achieved.

Quote:
I own guns, CT. I don't have any problem with my kid's pediatrician asking me about it, just as she asked about water safety due to our proximity to a river.
I don't mind it as a stand-alone question either. I'm not about to get all defensive or aggressive if it comes up. The concern is the follow-up.

NTM
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Last edited by California Tanker; 05-10-2011 at 11:42 PM.
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  #47  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:18 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

I am an animal, you are an animal.
So no having the sex in Florida, eh?

Florida's Bestiality Law May Have Accidentally Outlawed Sex Entirely
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  #48  
Old 05-12-2011, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Oh, please. Everbody knows that humangs aren't animals in God's Creation.
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Old 05-12-2011, 06:12 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

ONLY IF YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
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  #50  
Old 05-12-2011, 08:43 AM
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Default Re: What the fuck, Florida?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qingdai View Post
I am an animal, you are an animal.
So no having the sex in Florida, eh?

Florida's Bestiality Law May Have Accidentally Outlawed Sex Entirely
Not only does it appear to outlaw sex between humans, it also seems to outlaw sex between non-human animals too, only creating exceptions for animal husbandry, conformation judging, and veterinary practices. It doesn't create an exclusion for two animals that just want to get it on.

So no more turtleporn or five monkeys in a conga line of buttsex. :sadcheer:

:monkeybuttsex::turtleporn::monkeybuttsex:
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