Ghost in the Shell Mafia

[Deadlokd]

Originally Posted by fragment

Why not? It's the second time I'm aware of him pulling it here.

My first.

Originally Posted by fragment

They could, sure, but what makes you think that they did?

Because that's what I'd do. But maybe they didn't. Depends on who is scum.

[Gonzo]

Given that Nightson didn't outright lie, but used a guise of a soft claim to get his way and have raven pressured - I will leave my vote for now. I'm interested in what NS has gained from doing this. The problem I have with it, still, is misleading the town with an FOS based on no info against somebody to get a desired response from the rest of us. I've only seen scum pull tricks like that.

NS did you think raven was scum when you first made your FOS? Do you now?

Bey do you think Raven was unphatomed by the gambit FOS because she is scum or because she is town and not prone to pressure? Normally shouldn't scum flail?

[Nightson]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Given that Nightson didn't outright lie, but used a guise of a soft claim to get his way and have raven pressured - I will leave my vote for now. I'm interested in what NS has gained from doing this. The problem I have with it, still, is misleading the town with an FOS based on no info against somebody to get a desired response from the rest of us. I've only seen scum pull tricks like that.

NS did you think raven was scum when you first made your FOS? Do you now?

Bey do you think Raven was unphatomed by the gambit FOS because she is scum or because she is town and not prone to pressure? Normally shouldn't scum flail?

Which specific scum examples are you referring to?

Do you think scum or town benefited more from the gambit if I'm town and why? Does the answer change if I were scum?

I had absolutely nothing when I made my first post, on Raven or anybody else.

At this point... see this is the problem with Raven, I have no idea, her reactions seemed sort of odd but not so much in a scummy way, but a few things she did seemed a little scummy, but some things seemed townish. It seems odd to me that pretty much nobody jumped on her at all with the exception of bey. So yeah, Raven is impossible for me to read like always.

[Nightson]

I have class in the morning tomorrow and need to go to bed, so I'll just post on my top suspect now.

Originally Posted by teasasue

the only way you could know anything for sure at this point in the game is if you are scum. So unless you are trying to look scummy right off the bat I think some more explanation is in order.

unvote vote nightson

It's obviously not the case that being scum would be the only possible way to know something for certain, that's either not thinking things through or latching onto the one that allows a vote.

The thing that wins scummy points is the specific language used in the second sentence, 'trying to look scummy' as opposed to something like 'unless you're scum'

Originally Posted by teasasue

Why are you avoiding the questions being brought to you by throwing out nonsense? Just answer the questions that were set forth.

Quoted for reference.

Originally Posted by teasasue

a possibility to think about is that nightson is scum and trying to soft claim so that he is cleared and we dont lynch him.

The scumminess of this post is in two areas. First this was not a new theory but is presented as one. Secondly, this is presented entirely without connection. "I think..." or "It seems like..." are statements that take ownership of ideas, "A possibility to think about..." distances the speaker from the idea. Especially damning as her vote was on me. Voting someone but using this distancing language points more towards a scum vote then a town vote.

Originally Posted by teasasue

I am not sure this is relivent or not but some are talking about having day time powers to see things in the day but this is the only part of the op that states the kind of actions this game has and if there were day time actions I think it would have been stated here.

This feels like reaching since the post clearly says there can be other actions, but the "I am not sure if this is relevant..." is more distancing language since the possibility being talked about is me being a town day cop.

Originally Posted by teasasue

Nightson I didnt answer your question because I dont see how it would help town or you for that matter to know what I think of you. Nor how much weight I place you under the different fields you have indicated.

You did not answer the question as to why you are so sure raven is scum. You avoided this question by saying it is not in the best interests of the town. I and others dont think this is a good enough response.

This post doesn't really gel with simply calling the question nonsense before. She also does not see how it helps the town or the person she's voting to know what she thinks of the person she's voting. That doesn't strike me as a well thought out town position, it sounds more like scum justification after the fact.

The question was meant to force people to think through the possibilities and actually say what they thought was likely.

Finally, the last line is hiding within other opinions, which functions as something to add weight and too buddy up to the town, but it's generally a scum move.

So, finding basically every post to be scummy to varying degrees, I'm happy with a vote: teasasue

[Gonzo]

It surprises you that no one jumped on her based on your FOS alone? So you've gathered that it's scumtell when others call you out for a baseless claim rather than accept it and vote for your suspect. Aside from generating activity, I don't see how this particularilly helpful but to make decide whether raven's reaction was scummy or not.

Do you suppose bey is town after agreeing with you? Would you agree he could be scum and saw his opportunity to take your word for it?

[fragment]

Nightson, have you played with teasasue before?

[Gonzo]

Apparently not. He said he had no recollection of her.

[fragment]

Oh, and why do you think it odd that no-one but bey jumped on raven? What do you make of the fact that he did?

[fragment]

^ @Nightson

[fragment]

Originally Posted by beyelzu

Reasons that make sense. He can do things weird imho but he doesn't do things carelessly. I left it at good reasons because I as stated believed that even if raven flipped scum, nightson wouldn't be clear. His "good reason" could be an independent win condition as scum.

Nightson had good reasons for doing what he did.

OK, so you think Nightson had good reasons. And you admit that his reasons might be following his own win condition, which might not be the same as town's. Yet you voted fairly unquestioningly along with him as if his reasons were aligned with town's. I don't get it. Your opportunistic voting on raven looks poorly motivated at best, at worst the justifications you give seem inconsistent. Great big fucking fos on that.

[ravenscape]

can't sleep, so I've gone back through the thread a couple of times. A few things kind of stand out, but I'm skeptical that 2 or 3 of them are significant given what I've seen of the players in the past.

Jerome, for both his advice to the seer and for re-hashing the did-bey-read-his-role-pm argument from the last game when he was called on the seer advice. looks sort of like a deflection.

teas for a comment to the effect that it wouldn't help town to know what she thinks of Nightson. That's a really odd thing for town to say. I bolded the comment below.

Originally Posted by teasasue

ok I had pc issues and lost my quotes but I will go ahead and post what I was going to say to those post.

Dimicon I am voting right now for nightson you have me listed for 2 votes. Sorry I just didnt want to cause any confusion.

Nightson I didnt answer your question because I dont see how it would help town or you for that matter to know what I think of you. Nor how much weight I place you under the different fields you have indicated.

You did not answer the question as to why you are so sure raven is scum. You avoided this question by saying it is not in the best interests of the town. I and others dont think this is a good enough response.

the invoking the crowd thing seems kind of odd, too. I don't remember teas making comments like that in the Nancy Drew game.

diva seemed very sure that Nightson was pulling a fast one, especially compared to how other players reacted.

bey's still bugging me, though on balance I think he seems townish. I feel like my reactions are too entangled in Nightson's gambit right now to be very confident of my read, though. From my perspective, bey actually went after me harder than Nightson did. Bey's a strong player with a game style I relate to, so I'm maybe holding him to a different standard than the other people who have pinged - valuable as town, dangerous as scum.

And the last thing is the players who had nothing to say during this ruckus. Maybe they weren't around. I don't have a sense yet of when to expect Pan to post. Elouise tends to keep a low profile at the start of games and gets more involved after a couple of game days. It would have been nice to see their reactions to the last couple of days in something resembling real time.

[ravenscape]

Originally Posted by wei yau

Thanks, Nightson, for making this most interesting Day One I've ever played. Effective tactic and it did generate much discussion.

What did you learn from players' reactions to the tactic?

[ravenscape]

Originally Posted by Nightson

Which specific scum examples are you referring to?

Do you think scum or town benefited more from the gambit if I'm town and why? Does the answer change if I were scum?

I had absolutely nothing when I made my first post, on Raven or anybody else.

At this point... see this is the problem with Raven, I have no idea, her reactions seemed sort of odd but not so much in a scummy way, but a few things she did seemed a little scummy, but some things seemed townish. It seems odd to me that pretty much nobody jumped on her at all with the exception of bey. So yeah, Raven is impossible for me to read like always.

I am not that hard to read. I just haven't gotten scum roles often, so people read a lot into minor variations in my town game.

[ravenscape]

I missed these earlier.

Originally Posted by Megatron

The only oddball reactions I see are yours and bey's.

Yours for seeming unable (whether intentionally or superficially) to discern day 1 random from serious posts, and bey's for being much more lenient with a bizarro softclaim than I've EVER seen.

I was being sarcastic. I probably dislike the random stuff as much or more than you do. In the environments where I usually play mafia, the game days are short - 12 to 24 hours short. I'm taking a when in Rome attitude, but I'm pretty impatient with goofing around votes

Originally Posted by Megatron

Speaking of which, I've never seen ravenscape before this game - name change?

Hard to believe someone's been on the forum for nearly 3 years without me having ever seen you.

No name change. I joined FF in 2008 and I've played 4 FF games including this one. But, I'm not a mafia novice. I've been playing the game elsewhere since 2008.

[fragment]

Originally Posted by Deadlokd

Because that's what I'd do.

Really? Last game you were the least sit-back-and-watch scumster while townies were eating each other up.

[Pan Narrans]

unvote

Mad props to nightson for getting the ball rolling. If nothing else, it got discussion started in earnest. In all the hubbub, there's only one thing that really stood out to me:

Jerome, are you going to pay attention to what people say in thread or is this going to be a repeat of Nancy Drew Mafia, where you end up lynched early due to your non-contributions. If so, you'll have my vote, because in my view you'll be a net liability to town.

[Deadlokd]

Originally Posted by fragment

Really? Last game you were the least sit-back-and-watch scumster while townies were eating each other up.

It's a different situation. I tried looking at the situation as a scum would but it occurred to me that I can only look at it from my perspective. Damn having a social worker wife. I honestly don't know what to look for in the reread. I don't think teas is being scummy, I think she is being teas. I get that bey was just going along with it and that seems like bey. Everyone else? FIIK. Pan is being characteristically absent/silent.

[Deadlokd]

speak of the devil.

[Pan Narrans]

Yeah, I had a busy weekend and figured I wouldn't miss much if I skipped the mafia thread until Monday.

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by fragment

OK, so you think Nightson had good reasons. And you admit that his reasons might be following his own win condition, which might not be the same as town's. Yet you voted fairly unquestioningly along with him as if his reasons were aligned with town's. I don't get it. Your opportunistic voting on raven looks poorly motivated at best, at worst the justifications you give seem inconsistent. Great big fucking fos on that.

Some of the scenarios that seemed likely, ie that they were both scum would still make raven scum.

so yeah, great big logic fail on your part. Further I talked about how I wanted to pressure raven to see what happens.

but yeah, why pay attention to shit.

are you really this bad at logic or just scum?

[beyelzu]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Bey do you think Raven was unphatomed by the gambit FOS because she is scum or because she is town and not prone to pressure? Normally shouldn't scum flail?

I am still neutral to raven, she seems like she has in other games, but I don't know if I have ever played with her when she was scum.

Further, the ball never got rolling on the wagon so we didn't see real pressure.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by Pan Narrans

unvote

Mad props to nightson for getting the ball rolling. If nothing else, it got discussion started in earnest. In all the hubbub, there's only one thing that really stood out to me:

Jerome, are you going to pay attention to what people say in thread or is this going to be a repeat of Nancy Drew Mafia, where you end up lynched early due to your non-contributions. If so, you'll have my vote, because in my view you'll be a net liability to town.

For fuck's sake, let's not start into the 'let's lynch a bad town player' motif that derailed us last game. Vote for Jerome if you think he's scum. Frame what he's done as if it has scum motives if you want him lynched. Don't advocate his lynch for being a bad town player, but because he isn't being helpful. Not reading the thread carefully is a scumtell. Asking bey to read him PM after he already claimed he had is a scumtell. If you think Jerome is scum for these things, vote for him, if you think he playing his usual town game - don't vote for him.

It's not worth our time.

[Demicon]

Player	Votes
ravenscape	[1] beyelzu
JEROME	[1] wei yau
Deadlokd	[1] fragment
Gonzo
Pan Narrans
divagreen
Megatron	[1] Crumb
teasasue	[1] Nightson
fragment
Crumb	[1] Deadlokd
beyelzu
wei yau
Elouise
Nightson	[3] Megatron, teasasue, Gonzo

Not Voting: ravenscape, JEROME, divagreen, Elouise, Pan Narrans

8 votes to lynch

-Demi

[Deadlokd]

Yeah right.

unvote

[teasasue]

Originally Posted by Nightson

I have class in the morning tomorrow and need to go to bed, so I'll just post on my top suspect now.

It's obviously not the case that being scum would be the only possible way to know something for certain, that's either not thinking things through or latching onto the one that allows a vote.

The thing that wins scummy points is the specific language used in the second sentence, 'trying to look scummy' as opposed to something like 'unless you're scum'

Quoted for reference.

The scumminess of this post is in two areas. First this was not a new theory but is presented as one. Secondly, this is presented entirely without connection. "I think..." or "It seems like..." are statements that take ownership of ideas, "A possibility to think about..." distances the speaker from the idea. Especially damning as her vote was on me. Voting someone but using this distancing language points more towards a scum vote then a town vote.

This feels like reaching since the post clearly says there can be other actions, but the "I am not sure if this is relevant..." is more distancing language since the possibility being talked about is me being a town day cop.

This post doesn't really gel with simply calling the question nonsense before. She also does not see how it helps the town or the person she's voting to know what she thinks of the person she's voting. That doesn't strike me as a well thought out town position, it sounds more like scum justification after the fact.

The question was meant to force people to think through the possibilities and actually say what they thought was likely.

Finally, the last line is hiding within other opinions, which functions as something to add weight and too buddy up to the town, but it's generally a scum move.

So, finding basically every post to be scummy to varying degrees, I'm happy with a vote: teasasue

I think you are just reaching now to get the heat off of you.