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Old 09-30-2012, 07:18 PM
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Default Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Via TPM. This is a really good tear-down of the difference.


Quote:
Now, before going any further, let’s clarify one point. Voter registration fraud is not vote fraud. The first is relatively common in the US and the later is extremely rare. And while both are criminal offenses and should be they are apples and oranges when it comes to affecting the outcome of elections.

Vote fraud is what most of us think of: voting twice, voting when you’re not eligible to vote, stuffing ballot boxes with phony ballots and so forth. Voter registration fraud is registering people to vote who don’t exist or signing up legitimate voters without their signatures or permission and so forth. Big difference.

Ironically it’s been Republicans, in their effort to pass vote-suppressing voter ID laws, who’ve intentionally conflated the two (often with the help of ignorant reporters). To be clear, just because you register Mickey Mouse or Mary Poppins to vote doesn’t mean they’re going to show up to vote. Indeed, they’re not going to. Because they don’t exist. And even when it’s John Smith or Party Morgan, conspirators don’t show up to vote in those people’s name either. There’s abundant evidence and simple logic that attests to this. Most of what voter registration fraud does is clog up voting lists with phony names.

So why does it happen? For a reason Republicans should readily understand: incentives. Parties and organizations hire people to register voters. And the work doesn’t go to credentialed specialists in voter registration. The work either goes to enthusiastic volunteers or people paid relatively low amounts of money — sometimes by the hour or even by the registration — to register as many people as possible. As you might expect, some people decide they don’t want to spend the immense amount of work it takes to register 100 actual voters and just sit down with a hundred forms and fill the forms out themselves, maybe by reading names from the phone book or your latest Disney film. That’s particularly the case when people are paid by the form or given quotas — something which many states now outlaw for just this reason.
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  #2  
Old 09-30-2012, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

In Oregon, they have to be paid by the hour. It's an on-going battle with some organizations refusing to pay their workers, labor fraud.
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Old 09-30-2012, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

If this hasn't already been posted elsewhere

feature=my_liked_videos&list=LL4RO0pzIjVILdZYmjAlUaQA
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:14 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

One could argue that having to register to vote in the first place is a way of keeping the rifraf from voting.
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Ironically this is the same reason why obamism/socialism/communism and all other form of left-wing thought that rely on the basic assumption of "human nature is good" don't ever work: INCENTIVES
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Old 10-01-2012, 12:47 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Oh good, somewhere to put a random voter fraud observation.

There is this weird* local group that has been obsessed with hassling the county Elections Board about voter rolls. First they claimed to have identified like five hundred registered voters who are not citizens (there are 640,000 registered voters in the county). Then it turned out that those guys were all citizens, except for like 20 of them, and then all of those challenges were dismissed because nobody actually presented any evidence that they were not citizens. Birther much.

Then they came back and were like AH HA HEY GUYS, there are thirty thousand dead people on the voting rolls in the entire state (6.5 million registered voters), and they challenged them. Which could be true, because people die, and sometimes the removal process takes a couple of months, mainly because the constitutional injury of depriving someone of the right to vote without any process greatly outweighs the completely illusory non-risk of some dead person's name on the voter rolls.

Oh and then a bunch of those people that the group identified are not actually dead.

*It is definitely not like they just went through and picked out Mexican-sounding names or anything like that, you guys, for real, this is not about race.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:58 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Ironically this is the same reason why obamism/socialism/communism and all other form of left-wing thought that rely on the basic assumption of "human nature is good" don't ever work: INCENTIVES
We already know that human nature isn't good. After all, you welched out of a bet for 200 euros and are still running away from paying.
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Old 10-01-2012, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Ironically this is the same reason why obamism/socialism/communism and all other form of left-wing thought that rely on the basic assumption of "human nature is good" don't ever work: INCENTIVES
Of course, the same could be said of theft: the reason it continues is because so much incentive exists for it.

Therefore we shouldn't legislate against theft, because it works contrary to the natural incentives. Such laws are contrary to human nature and will never work.

See how lolbertarian logic works?
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Old 10-01-2012, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Ironically this is the same reason why obamism/socialism/communism and all other form of left-wing thought that rely on the basic assumption of "human nature is good" don't ever work: INCENTIVES
Wow, so much in there to unpack.
I don't know what "Obamism" is exactly, but I am sure Obama's policies in no way reflect socialist or communist values particularly. They do resemble center-right crony-capitalist policies for the most part.

Socialism and communism work from the ethos of communal philosophy and class struggle. As such they stand in contrast to libertarianism, which start from an ethos of individualist philosophy. Communal philosophies as far as I know do not make assumptions about human nature; they simply suggest that communal need trumps individual desire for profit, as a means of organizing a state or an economy. This is perhaps oversimplified but succinctly said in Spock's message when he repairs the critical failure on the starship at the cost of his own life: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

There is an important distinction to make between communal action and subjugation by the state, and libertarians tend to miss this distinction, and instead argue that communal philosophy equals subjugation. Period.
It is vitally important to prevent communal philosophies from being suborned in this way, and I am aware of the perversions of Stalin and Mao for example, in transforming an attempt at communal society into personality cults and totalitarian regimes.

Moderately socialist reforms and communal philosophies applied in the Scandinavian socialist-democratic nations are successful and have yielded positive results for the members of those societies.

What I think libertarians miss in this argument is that while individual civil liberties are important to safeguard, that interdependence is factual, and that the actions of individuals have real consequences on others. Additionally, while organizing around the profit motive and selfish desires is one way to organize a society (the Gordon Gecko model), libertarians have a lot of work to do to show that it is the rational or useful or functional way to organize society. It certainly is not an egalitarian or democratic system, and in fact rejects both outright. It is unlikely that a system that promotes a massive underclass of have-nots understands the lessons of history. It is equally unlikely that libertarianism will catch on with the vast underclass that the Galtian masters see as parasites; so the "inherent violence of the state" is traded for the violence of the privately powerful- those who can hire armies, those who can enforce their will on subjugated populaces of workers; or it is traded for the violence of revolution and overthrow. And of course there is the whole rest of the teetering mess of libertarian economic models that belie rational modeling and exist mostly as figments and delusions.

Once again: human nature is at best a discussion of the physiological responses to stimuli that humans display, and how that impacts social structures. Everything else attributed to human nature tends to be utter bullshit and a reflection of the viewer's opinions rather than fact. Humans do all sorts of things, and all those things, having been undertaken by humans, may fall under the so-broad-as-to-be-utterly-meaningless category of human nature.

And speaking of "INCENTIVES" and irony:
Quote:

Anarcho-capitalist libertarians believe that the only just, and/or most economically beneficial, way to acquire property is through voluntary trade, gift, or labor-based original appropriation, rather than through aggression or fraud.
What do you call it when a self-proclaimed Anarcho-capitalist makes a public bet and then reneges on that bet? Is that called fraud? The perpetuation of a an unjust system where voluntarily entered obligations are simply shrugged off? Seems like the kind of thing a parasite would do.

You owe :ff: 200 euro.

Sorry for the tangent.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
.. nobody actually presented any evidence that they were not citizens.
Is that how it should work, the polls are open to everyone except those that are proven non-citizens.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:21 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Should all voters bring their long-form birth certificates? Or their parents' lfbc's too? That's the only way to prove it, amirite?
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

If you want to say anyone living here has the vote, then just say it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:30 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
.. nobody actually presented any evidence that they were not citizens.
Is that how it should work, the polls are open to everyone except those that are proven non-citizens.
No, that's something you made up that has nothing to do with the fifth and fourteenth amendment due process considerations associated with removing a person's name from the voter rolls.

Or, if you prefer:

Is that how it should work, your god Obama should just be able revoke the people's right to vote for no reason? lol you are in love with giving the state unchecked power.
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Old 10-02-2012, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

I haven't read all of this yet, but it looks pretty relevant

The BRAD BLOG : Nationwide GOP Voter Registration Fraud Scandal Widens, Becomes Criminal Matter in Florida

Also, dear home state: Stop being embarrassing plz.
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

More:

Maddow: GOP forced to cease voter registration efforts in five of the swingiest swing states | The Raw Story
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“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

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Old 10-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Not on CNN.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Today in Voter Fraud

GOP contractor arrested for destruction of voter registration applications | The Raw Story
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Harris-Perry: ‘Disgusting’ voter-suppression tactics still spreading | The Raw Story
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

The "what are you going to do about it" election gambit - Hullabaloo
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

I guess this can go here

Conservative group faces backlash after sending out ‘voter audit’ mailers | The Raw Story
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Old 11-02-2012, 04:55 AM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

In both North Carolina and Ohio there are reports of vote switching on the machines.
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Old 11-02-2012, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

We just got one of these for my mom, but I think it was from the League of Women Voters or something. She has a pretty bad voting record here ever since she moved to New Mexico. So I was just reading about that practice. Apparently, they've studied responses, and people are more likely to vote if they get called out for not voting in the past.

It is pretty shitty and creepy, though, and I am against it.

But also this provides me with a convenient segue.

You guys might have read about this, where our wingnut secretary of state has been pushing some ridiculously extensive and expensive purge of voter rolls. After spending all kinds of time and money on the project, he maybe found like 141 people who maybe aren't eligible to vote, at least one of whom didn't even know he'd been inadvertently registered.

Voter Purging Resurfaces in Colorado - ABC News

Colorado Secretary of State Gives Up On Voter Purge | ThinkProgress

Here is the thing, though: I know where there are at least three ineligible voters who are currently on the voter rolls. My house is where!

No shit. There are three people who have lived here at different times who have since moved out of state, filed change of address forms, registered to vote and drive and everything in their new states, who are all still registered to vote here. Until recently, they were sending them all mail in ballots! If we were Republicans, we could have doubled our household voting bloc.

I've tried to get them taken off, but nobody seems all that interested in purging ineligible voters with European sounding names.

They sure are putting a lot of effort into preventing poor, young, and brown people from voting, and they'll berate you for using legal identification methods they don't like; but they can't even be fucked to check change of address forms or anything to prevent middle class white people from voting multiple times.
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Old 11-03-2012, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Update on this.

I wrote an email to the local paper and the local elections division about it. Within about an hour, I'd gotten two very concerned sounding voicemails from the City & County Clerk (that's right, mofos, we are a city AND county), and when I talked to him, he said he was going to make the election officials stay after for retraining before election day so it doesn't happen again, and let them know they got busted.

I'm also going to note in case I didn't that one of our local wingnuts sponsored a failed photo ID bill this year, so there is no way those women didn't know about it. The guy even sort of intimated that he knew who they were and they were very, 'ummm, passionate' about it.

They should really, really not be working the elections.
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  #24  
Old 11-03-2012, 06:53 PM
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Angakuk Angakuk is offline
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

The moral of this story is, don't piss off lisaurea, 'cause she will surely take the piss out of you.

Lisaurea - making small differences every day.
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Last edited by Angakuk; 11-04-2012 at 02:13 AM.
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  #25  
Old 11-03-2012, 10:51 PM
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Oh, brilliant.
 
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Default Re: Voter fraud vs. voter *registration* fraud

Virginia voter fraud probe into GOP firm may include up to 40 voter registration employees | The Raw Story

More on the same story: Virginia voter fraud case expands to focus on GOP firm - The Washington Post

Also: Texas' voter purge made repeated errors - Houston Chronicle

In further news: Florida early vote totals revised, raising questions | theGrio

Stop being embarrassing, home state :(
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