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Old 12-30-2017, 05:11 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

davidjricardo comments on Two Separate Studies Show That The Vast Majority Of People Who Said They Support Ajit Pai's Plan... Were Fake

Hi, Nice to meet you. The names David Icardo, Jr. I'm a professional Economist and like many (if not most) of my colleagues, I oppose Net Neutrality. I am one of the real people who submitted a comment to the FCC opposing Net Neutrality.

At least five current or former Chief Economists of the FCC have publically opposed the Open Internet Order. I don't know any who have supported it. That includes:

Michael Katz (Served under Clinton, author of half of the Economics papers cited in the 2015 Open Internet Order).
Gerald Faulhaber (Served under Bush)
Michelle Connolly (Served twice, once under Bush and once overlapping under Bush and Obama)
Tim Brennan (served under Obama, including when the OIO was passed)
Jerry Ellig (The current FCC Chief Economist).
In a survey of leading Economists, only 11% supported Net Neutrality. 44% were opposed to it, and 36% were uncertain. This isn't a partisan thing either, Economists at leading Universities are much more likely to be Democrats than Republicans, by over a 4:1 ratio.

I don't mean to say that all Economists oppose Net Neutrality or the OIO specifically. There are certainly some who support it. Nicholas Economides would probably be the most well known. Still, I think it is fair to say that most oppose it, particularrly those working on related topics.

Neither the world nor the internet as we know it is going to end with the repeal of Net Neutrality. It wouldn't have had it reamined in place either. But I think there are good reasons to think things are likely to be at least somewhat better without it they with it. Markets generally work well. Proactive regulation is likely to stifle innovation. There is at least the potential for there to be benefits from prioritizing some types of data over others (telemedicine, video conferencing, etc.). The peer-reviewed literature indicates that NN regulations will likely lead to a worsening in the digital divide.. There are legitimate concerns about ISP behavior, but it's probably best handled through anti-trust not Title II restrictions - reclassifying ISPs as common carriers took that away from the FTC who does it well and put it in the hands of the FCC whose ability to do so is uncertain.

ISPs will also be constrained by their desire to maximize profits. "Workable Competition" is the operative concept here. Contestable markets matter. DSL matters. Mobile ISPs matter. They aren't perfect substitutes, but you don't need textbook perfect competition for competitive pressures to constrain firm behavior. The real world is full of imperfect competition. Becker et al. (2010) showed that: "there is significant and growing competition among broadband access providers and that few significant competitive problems have been observed." They also conclude that "antitrust enforcement and/or more limited regulatory mechanisms provide a better framework for addressing competitive concerns raised by proponents of net neutrality."

Say what you want about Chairman Pai, but he has actually listened to Economists and Chairman Wheeler did not..


http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/net-neutrality-ii
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post

According to most REAL economists...
According the THE Economist...

Quote:
Ajit Pai, the commission’s newish chairman, thinks that strict rules enforcing network neutrality are not needed. Instead, he wants ISPs to set their own policies and get another agency, the Federal Trade Commission, to enforce them case by case. That might work in countries with fierce competition among fixed broadband providers; in America, where millions of households have only one choice of high-speed supplier, it would surely fail. Big ISPs can charge startups and others more for bandwidth, slowing innovation and leaving consumers with less choice.
Also, you owe us €200.
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Who is is David Icardo Jr?
IDK, he posts on reddit, I guess that's good enough credentials. Claims to speak for most economists, yet we still know nothing about him.

Lists a study oh 45 economists in 2014 as evidence economists are against neutrality.
Blah blah blah, strawman and musing.
Dismisses any problems as 'small' just like a proper economist would do (or maybe not, who knows).
Provides zero argument or support for his positions. Quality!

What was the point of that besides the ego stroking of someone who's first page google results are that they post on Reddit?
Wait, is your name David?
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Old 12-30-2017, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Who are these liberal media that people keep talking about?
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Well, at least you linked to the Reddit post you copied whole - a minor improvement over your usual lack of respect for copyrights and attribution.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by specious_reasons View Post
Well, at least you linked to the Reddit post you copied whole - a minor improvement over your usual lack of respect for copyrights and attribution.
Ignoring intellectual property rights and treating them as a common good? That's communism.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Dismisses any problems as 'small' just like a proper economist would do (or maybe not, who knows).
The original Reddit article provides links for the named economists. I followed the Michael Katz link, and what he says is exactly as you described.

Basically, the FCC cites one of his papers, which essentially says that without net neutrality, there will be discriminatory pricing that harms consumers. But the FCC got it all wrong you see, because it's more likely to harm different classes of consumers than the typical FCC narrative. Discriminatory pricing is not more likely to stifle innovation as long as it's low enough bandwidth!

This potentially ignores the incentive an ISP might have to stifle innovation at any bandwidth if it's a high value business that the ISP also has an interest.

This also presumes that economics is the best/only reason to support net neutrality.
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Who are these liberal media that people keep talking about?
the same liberal media that got Trump elected by pushing the idea that the only reason to be against "the most prepared politician ever" is being a misogynist
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Old 12-30-2017, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Who are these liberal media that people keep talking about?
the same liberal media that got Trump elected by pushing the idea that the only reason to be against "the most prepared politician ever" is being a misogynist
This literally makes no sense whatsoever. Could you chop it up in its constituent parts so we may get a clue wtf you mean?
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Old 12-30-2017, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

LOL.

The only specific point that he makes that's not just a vague sentiment or an appeal to some uncited authority is bullshit.

Quote:
There is at least the potential for there to be benefits from prioritizing some types of data over others (telemedicine, video conferencing, etc.)
Look up "BIAS (Broadband Internet Access Services)" and "Non-BIAS data services," and you will discover that there are existing exemptions in the 2015 NN order that prioritize VOIP, telemedicine, medical device traffic, etc.

That guy either doesn't know what he's talking about or he's being intentionally deceptive.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Who are these liberal media that people keep talking about?
the same liberal media that got Trump elected by pushing the idea that the only reason to be against "the most prepared politician ever" is being a misogynist
Would this be the same liberal media that ran the above-the-fold page A1 stories about Hillary's emails on the same day 10 days before the election, or the same liberal media that gave Trump billions of dollars in free advertising by continually airing uninterrupted footage of his rallies?

You owe €200. Back to the kicken with you.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2017, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

I've been thinking just how much libertarianism invites scams. Since it puts the burden on the victim to figure out if they're being scammed, you could easily go around telling people you're an economist and by shear numbers some of them will believe you without checking.

Of course libertarianism knows about and exploits this, which is why libertarians write books and long posts instead of governing and making policy, they hope you won't check to see if libertarianism actually works in the real world.
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Old 12-30-2017, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Who are these liberal media that people keep talking about?
the same liberal media that got Trump elected by pushing the idea that the only reason to be against "the most prepared politician ever" is being a misogynist
Would this be the same liberal media that ran the above-the-fold page A1 stories about Hillary's emails on the same day 10 days before the election
Hey now, leftists and libertarians and conservatives are all in agreement that there was nothing wrong with the New York Times's treatment of that story. It's just you Hillary cultists who think they should just not have covered that story at all!

Now run along and worship your #Resistance hero Bill Kristol, you Pétainist.

Also, AML, you owe us €200 :kicken:
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

I have no idea what the €200 is about, but how is free market enterprise supposed to even work if people don't pay their debts?
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:21 PM
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Drinking Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

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Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by specious_reasons View Post
Well, at least you linked to the Reddit post you copied whole - a minor improvement over your usual lack of respect for copyrights and attribution.
Ignoring intellectual property rights and treating them as a common good? That's communism.
Except, as with most libercontrarians, they think silly things like rules dont apply. We here at the freethought forum and chat emporium and pibble sanctorum frown on copying and pasting whole works. We would prefer a free thoughtful engagement of ideas and discussion of same. If one of our admins were here, they would have some ultimatum to apply. But, alas.

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I have no idea what the €200 is about...
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  #17  
Old 12-30-2017, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

It doesn't help with his credibility. Or his credit. No more bets! :boss:
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

My goodness, let’s look at what The New York Times published on Oct. 29, 2016

Well, whaddya know?

Oh, and then there is this.

And there is MUCH more besides.

Anyone who thinks The New York Times cost Hillary Clinton the election has a screw loose. You’re also in the good company of the Times’ biggest enemies, President Cheeto Benito and his demented followers. Funny, that, eh? I think you make good bedfellows. You’re all equally deranged.

The truth is, The Times was ALL OVER Comey’s BS right from the get-go and I should know because I DO KNOW — first hand.

I have been very, very critical of The Times and the news media in general. But not all criticisms are valid. However, I’m not going to waste my breath debating this, principally because this message board is practically defunct anyway, and more generally I learned long ago that having debates on the internet, particularly with dumb asses like Erimir, is about as fructifying as trying to fuck a pig.

Erimir knows as much about what goes on in a newsroom (or what should go on) as a whore knows about what goes on in a convent or a nun knows about what goes on in a whore house.
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Oh dear, and look look at this.

I could dig up MANY more links about the Times’s coverage of Comey and Trump, and this is not even to mention the plainly verifiable fact that the Times editorial board has been absolutely scathing about Trump before, during, and after the election. Of course, anyone reading this can dig up such links as well — let me know what you find!

But go ahead and believe what you want to believe, erimir :pat: — just like a good Trumpkin! :lol:
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Old 12-30-2017, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Omfg how will poor lil' erimir ever deal with this, hmmm?
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Good golly gosh, look at a right-wing rag attacking the Times for its critical coverage of Comey on the very eve of last year's election!

How ya like that, erimir?
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Ya know what? I think over the next week or so I'm going to dig up and post links to the entirety of the Times' coverage of Comey/Clinton/Trump just to publicly show up erimir for the prating prick that he is.

I've been provoked enough by this clueless twit.
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Here, on Oct, 29, 2016, is how the NY Times stove to destroy Clinton's candidacy.

:lol:
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Old 12-31-2017, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Anyone who thinks The New York Times cost Hillary Clinton the election has a screw loose. You’re also in the good company of the Times’ biggest enemies, President Cheeto Benito and his demented followers. Funny, that, eh? I think you make good bedfellows. You’re all equally deranged.
Trump does not believe the NYT cost Clinton the election, as far as I know. I don't think and have never said that the NYT single-handedly cost her the election either! Although I do think their coverage contributed to her loss. So how it would put me in his company, I don't know.

In fact, I'm reasonably certain that proclaiming that the media did not cover Clinton's emails poorly (by overhyping the issue and dedicating far too much time to the story) would put you in the company of Trump.

Or the fact that AML pulled out this, which is very similar to things you've said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
the same liberal media that got Trump elected by pushing the idea that the only reason to be against "the most prepared politician ever" is being a misogynist
You two make good bedfellows, eh? :rolleyes:

You (and people like Greenwald, who you are a fan of) like attacks by association. For example, Greenwald was making one in that tweet I linked to about Bill Kristol. But strangely, you and Watser and Greenwald seem completely untroubled by being on the same side of an issue as Trump, Putin, alt-right Nazis, etc. when proclaiming that there's no evidence of collusion, it's a witch hunt, and the media did not cover Clinton unfairly. Perhaps you would like to reconsider making such fallacious and idiotic attacks?

Your projection is quite a bit Trump-like, though :pat:

(See also: complaining about others uncharitably interpreting your arguments while making, at this point, about a dozen posts based off a straw man that I debunked after your first post about it.)
Quote:
I’m not going to waste my breath debating this
Well this was a lie. Immediately contradicting yourself is also a bit Trump-like!

And yes, you can find examples of articles and op-eds published by the NYT which do not actually address my criticism, because you have only ever attacked a straw man of my position and have proclaimed you have no intention of reading my posts* and finding out what my actual position is.

But keep fucking that chicken.

*Also a lie, obviously, but you may have been telling the truth about not reading the one where I elaborated my criticism of the NYT/media in general.
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Ya know what? I think over the next week or so I'm going to dig up and post links to the entirety of the Times' coverage of Comey/Clinton/Trump just to publicly show up erimir for the prating prick that he is.

I've been provoked enough by this clueless twit.
Oh, you're going compile all the NYT coverage of Clinton's emails? You go right ahead. I'm sure I'll be totally owned :pat:

Last edited by erimir; 12-31-2017 at 12:54 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-31-2017, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: What the liberal media don't tell you: Most REAL economists oppose Net Neutrality

If you’re getting all your political news from The New York Times, this may be the first time you’re hearing this.

The New York Times’s public editor calls out the NewYork Times for NOT reporting on Clinton’s emails — and does so in the pages of the NY Times!

Man, I’m just getting warmed up!

Ya see that erimir? You who think you know everything?

:lol:
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  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


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