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  #6026  
Old 12-07-2016, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Sorry guys, zero fucks given.
It's really just nitpicking. There's the technical aspect of proper titles, but that pales in comparison to the fact that Wakefield lost his license to practice medicine by unethically conducting research.
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  #6027  
Old 12-07-2016, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Wakefield and I are doctors to the same extent.
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  #6028  
Old 12-07-2016, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
It would be irresponsible to administer marijuana to a child who has a fragile medical condition without independent ethical oversight due to possible misuse or potential harm. A parent would welcome that kind of oversight knowing his child may benefit from the therapy.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Thanks for clarifying peacegirl!

Parents doing their due diligence, note that peacegirl has no problem with medical researchers administering drugs to healthy children without independent ethical oversight.
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We're using two different definitions.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Conducting medical research on humans without independent ethical oversight is unethical. Andrew Wakefield unethically conducted medical research on children without independent ethical oversight.
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According to the definition, yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
Yes, Andrew Wakefield unethically conducted research on children without independent ethical oversight. That is one reason why he lost his medical license.
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He was a researcher which is even better. So that means he was a fraud? No. You're splitting hairs Chuck.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Oh, many other things make him a fraud as well. This just makes him a particularly unethical fraud because of how he conducted medical research on children without independent ethical oversight.
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It sounds to me that someone could be harmed so ethical considerations would most certainly come into play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
What? Merck just needs healthy children's blood for research purposes. They'll just go out to birthday parties and give kids $10 for it. peacegirl, do you agree that Merck does need to seek independent ethical oversight before sending representatives to childrens' birthday parties to pay children to take children's blood for research purposes?
You're exaggerating to make a point, but it doesn't fly. You cannot compare the two. It was a convenient way to get the blood he needed and it was in his own home. This could set a precedent for other doctors to do the same thing, which is why they had to draw the line.
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Here is an interesting article. Maybe you can expound on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
:lol: Maybe you can expound on it. No, you can't - because you didn't read it. You googled it, skimmed the headline, and thought it might be relevant (it's not) or at least distract from your bizarrely continuing defense of the fraudulent quack Andrew Wakefield.
I read it but it was difficult for me to understand everything. What I read is that there is a gray area where research meshes with treatment. Sometimes the ethical oversight may not be appropriate if the risk is low. I just wanted to understand it better. Forget it Chuck. I don't need your help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
I know the Hastings Center, you fucking idiot. They are thought leaders in bioethics - organizations like the Hastings Center are one of the reasons that researchers seek independent ethical oversight of medical research involving humans. You should e-mail the Hastings Center and ask them whether researchers conducting medical research on children should seek independent ethical oversight.

Maybe you could do a little digging in their journal, which is titled IRB: Ethics & Human Research. Do you know what an IRB is, peacegirl? It's independent ethical oversight. You know, that thing Andrew Wakefield didn't bother to get before unethically conducting medical research on children.

peacegirl, are you entirely blind to the ethical morass that you're dragged into when you hitch your wagon to the fraudulent quack Andrew Wakefield? He unethically conducted medical research on children without independent oversight. And you think that's ok.
With all due respect, you're wrong. Wakefield may have made a mistake, but he's not a fraudulent quack. He will be vindicated.

The Lancet Retraction Changes Nothing
04/04/2010 05:12 am ET | Updated Nov 17, 2011
David Kirby

Author/Journalist/Writing & Media Coach Home Page
Dr. Andrew Wakefield is one of the most vilified medical practitioners of recent times, and now he carries the extremely rare dishonor of a retraction in The Lancet, on the paper he coauthored in 1998 suggesting a potential link between autism, bowel disease and Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine.

I believe that the public lynching and shaming of Dr. Wakefield is unwarranted and overwrought, and that history will ultimately judge who was right and who was wrong about proposing a possible association between vaccination and regressive autistic spectrum disorder (ASD).

Wakefield’s critics can condemn, retract, decry and de-license all they want, but that does nothing to stop or alter the march of science, which has come a long way over the past 12 years, and especially in the last year or two. The evidence that autism is increasing at alarming rates, and that some thing (or things) in our environment is wreaking havoc on a vulnerable one-percent of all US children is now so irrefutable that, finally, the federal government is climbing aboard the environmental research bandwagon - way late, but better than never.

cont. at: The Lancet Retraction Changes Nothing | The Huffington Post

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  #6029  
Old 12-07-2016, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
If he already had a strong conscience, his conscience would continue to guide him in the right direction where the safety and well-being of others are concerned. There are sociopaths and psychopaths in this world who don't have a conscience. We all know that. Wakefield is not one of them. :sadcheer:
And you know this ... how, again? Because he says so?



Well, that's settled, then!
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  #6030  
Old 12-07-2016, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
What? Merck just needs healthy children's blood for research purposes. They'll just go out to birthday parties and give kids $10 for it. peacegirl, do you agree that Merck does need to seek independent ethical oversight before sending representatives to childrens' birthday parties to pay children to take children's blood for research purposes?
You're exaggerating to make a point, but it doesn't fly. You cannot compare the two. It was a convenient way to get the blood he needed and it was in his own home. This could set a precedent for other doctors to do the same thing, which is why they had to draw the line.
"Comparing" the two? They're doing exactly the same thing - sending representatives to a child's birthday party to collect blood from children for research purposes. You do not think that medical research on children requires any independent ethical oversight. I mean, that is an objectively immoral and horrifying thing for you to say, and it is fortunate that absolutely no one would ever seek you out as a moral authority for any reason whatsoever, but at least you are clear on that point.
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I read it but it was difficult for me to understand everything. What I read is that there is a gray area where research meshes with treatment. Sometimes the ethical oversight may not be appropriate if the risk is low. I just wanted to understand it better. Forget it Chuck. I don't need your help.
I have no particular interest in "helping" you.

Again you (either disingenuously or out of ineducable ignorance) continue to attempt to conflate research involving humans, which requires independent ethical oversight, with medical treatment in an attempt to excuse Andrew Wakefield's unethical conduct of medical research on children.

Of course, you have already pointed out in a separate attempt to defend Andrew Wakefield's unethical medical research on children that his unethical medical research for which he obtained no independent oversight involved healthy children at a birthday party; there was no treatment or therapeutic benefit involved.

But again, the basic fact is simple: Andrew Wakefield unethically conducted medical research on children without obtaining independent ethical oversight.
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I believe that the public lynching and shaming of Dr. Wakefield
Public lynching, peacegirl?
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  #6031  
Old 12-07-2016, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
The evidence that autism is increasing at alarming rates, and that some thing (or things) in our environment is wreaking havoc on a vulnerable one-percent of all US children is now so irrefutable that, finally, the federal government is climbing aboard the environmental research bandwagon - way late, but better than never.
Maybe, but of course Wakefield's study wasn't on what causes autism it was trying to link vaccines with a disease, such as autism, and while autism may be caused by environmental factors, we know one factor that doesn't cause it, vaccines!
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  #6032  
Old 12-07-2016, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
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I believe that the public lynching and shaming of Dr. Wakefield
Public lynching, peacegirl?
That's pretty tame by peacegirl's standards. She once wrote in the Corrupted Text thread that she felt "gang raped."
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  #6033  
Old 12-07-2016, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Wakefield and I are doctors to the same extent.
You are a better doctor than Wakefield because you haven't conducted unethical research on children....

...that I know of...
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  #6034  
Old 12-07-2016, 05:44 AM
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Default Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

It's cool, we had a party and I gave them each $10. No worries.
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  #6035  
Old 12-07-2016, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Look, it is really simple. Lone maverick researchers out to do good are nice guys. If there was anything really wrong with unofficially gathering blood samples at a birthday party at your house at a tenner a pop without ethical oversight, or conducting research while you are patenting a replacement vaccine and getting paid as a consultant for litigators looking to start a big lucrative case to do with those exact same vaccines without reporting a conflict of interest, then his conscience would not let him do it because he is a nice guy, so it is fine.

All those little details are at worst just minor oversights that do not in the least make them or their work suspect in any way. I mean, he is a maverick, right? He is going it alone in the face of a nameless, faceless monolith of uncaring government authorities being influenced by deep-pocketed corporations out to protect their interests. He is taking the path less traveled, selflessly risking it all in order to destroy the conspiracy of silence created by these money-grubbing, heartless corporate shills. And what more proof do you need when you look at the outcome? Just look at how he was tarred and feathered, pilloried, publicly lynched, hung, drawn and quartered! And for what? While what he did was technically against just about every rule for ethical research, the end result is that he was utterly annihilated down to the very last particle for mere peccadilloes because it involved disturbing their little money-making schemes!

So, there is no reason at all to assume there is anything wrong with Wakefield's study, and the way he was taken to task is just more proof how corrupt everybody else in that business is. Drain the swamp!

Of course, there are also guys who are not necessarily nice. These are the researchers whose studies we should not trust, because there is a lot of money involved in big pharma and conflicts of interest can easily creep in, as Peacegirl never ceases to warn us. And we all know how easily money changes hands in the shady, inhuman world of Big Pharma. Juicy consulting contracts handed to researchers that are supposed to be independent, shady kickbacks from the research into new medicines that no-one really needs in return for some fudged data... you name it. Knowing this should make us treat any study at all with deep suspicion!

So, there is every reason to assume there are things wrong with those studies, and the people involved should be taken to task in order to clear up the corruption that is rife in the medical system. Drain the swamp!

And if you need to know which is which, just ask Peacegirl.
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  #6036  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:04 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Wakefield and I are doctors to the same extent.
What is that supposed to mean?
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  #6037  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

That ChuckF did unethical experiments on children while being paid by lawyers of their parents to discredit a competing product of one of his patents. Duh!
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  #6038  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:06 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Look, it is really simple. Lone maverick researchers out to do good are nice guys. If there was anything really wrong with unofficially gathering blood samples at a birthday party at your house at a tenner a pop without ethical oversight...
There was no money involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
or conducting research while you are patenting a replacement vaccine]
He was not patenting a vaccine or anything that was in competition with the MMR shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
and getting paid as a consultant for litigators looking to start a big lucrative case to do with those exact same vaccines without reporting a conflict of interest, then his conscience would not let him do it because he is a nice guy, so it is fine
He was not paid as a consultant for litigators in order to make a false case. You're right, his conscience would never have let him do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
All those little details are at worst just minor oversights that do not in the least make them or their work suspect in any way. I mean, he is a maverick, right? He is going it alone in the face of a nameless, faceless monolith of uncaring government authorities being influenced by deep-pocketed corporations out to protect their interests. He is taking the path less traveled, selflessly risking it all in order to destroy the conspiracy of silence created by these money-grubbing, heartless corporate shills. And what more proof do you need when you look at the outcome? Just look at how he was tarred and feathered, pilloried, publicly lynched, hung, drawn and quartered! And for what? While what he did was technically against just about every rule for ethical research, the end result is that he was utterly annihilated down to the very last particle for mere peccadilloes because it involved disturbing their little money-making schemes!
That's not what this was about. He was contacted by parents because he was a researcher of gastroenterology and their children were suffering. He didn't pick and choose the children to make his study look clean. He didn't break any rules. He got ethical approval other than at the birthday party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
So, there is no reason at all to assume there is anything wrong with Wakefield's study, and the way he was taken to task is just more proof how corrupt everybody else in that business is. Drain the swamp!
Right, it's about making sure his reputation gets decimated so no one would even question the validity of his study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Of course, there are also guys who are not necessarily nice. These are the researchers whose studies we should not trust, because there is a lot of money involved in big pharma and conflicts of interest can easily creep in, as Peacegirl never ceases to warn us. And we all know how easily money changes hands in the shady, inhuman world of Big Pharma. Juicy consulting contracts handed to researchers that are supposed to be independent, shady kickbacks from the research into new medicines that no-one really needs in return for some fudged data... you name it. Knowing this should make us treat any study at all with deep suspicion!

So, there is every reason to assume there are things wrong with those studies, and the people involved should be taken to task in order to clear up the corruption that is rife in the medical system. Drain the swamp!

And if you need to know which is which, just ask Peacegirl.
:yup:
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Last edited by peacegirl; 12-08-2016 at 02:11 PM.
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  #6039  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
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Wakefield and I are doctors to the same extent.
What is that supposed to mean?
My oh my, what a vacuous cow you are. It means that Chuck has a J.D. degree and Wakefield has an M.D. degree, but neither is authorized to practice medicine.
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  #6040  
Old 12-08-2016, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Wakefield and I are doctors to the same extent.
What is that supposed to mean?
My oh my, what a vacuous cow you are. It means that Chuck has a J.D. degree and Wakefield has an M.D. degree, but neither is authorized to practice medicine.
Sorry but I can't interpret stupid! :giggle:
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Study Proving Vaccines Cause Autism Banned From Internet
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  #6042  
Old 12-08-2016, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

:rofl:
"Homeschool organizations in four states (Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Oregon) were asked to forward an email to their members, requesting mothers to complete an anonymous online questionnaire on the vaccination status and health outcomes of their biological children ages 6 to 12. [...]

A total of 415 mothers provided data on 666 children, of which 261 (39%) were unvaccinated. Vaccinated children were significantly less likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with chickenpox and pertussis, but significantly more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia, otitis media, allergies and NDDs (defined as Autism Spectrum Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and/or a learning disability)."

Totally objective and without bias!
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  #6043  
Old 12-08-2016, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

Antivaccinationists promote a bogus internet “survey.” Hilarity ensues as it’s retracted. – Respectful Insolence

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There’s another interesting wrinkle to this paper, and that’s who peer reviewed it. One of the peer reviewers was Linda Mullin Elkins, a chiropractor at Life University, a “university” that portrays itself as:
We are at the forefront of the vitalistic health revolution by offering studies within the fields of Chiropractic, Functional Kinesiology, Vitalistic Nutrition, Positive Psychology, Functional Neurology and Positive Business, using entrepreneurship for social change.
“Vitalistic nutrition”? “Functional kinesiology”? “Vitalistic health revolution”? Yes, there’s some serious, serious woo there. Elkins is not a qualified peer reviewer for a paper like this—or for any peer reviewer. Then there is the issue of the journal itself. Frontiers in Public Health is published by Frontiers Media, which is on Beall’s list of predatory open access publishers. Such predatory open access journals follow a business model that involves charging publication fees to authors to publish just about anything.
So yeah. The study (:lol:) got yanked by a vanity publishing outfit.
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  #6044  
Old 12-08-2016, 03:54 PM
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Default Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

:lol: Reset complete

Cemetery Of Alien 'Giants' Found In Central Africa - Your News Wire
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Old 12-08-2016, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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I don't know where that link came from. That was not what I meant to post.
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Old 12-08-2016, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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I hope my opinion matters but I doubt it. :cry:
It's great to find consensus - I, too, doubt that your opinion matters.
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  #6047  
Old 12-08-2016, 05:00 PM
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Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Look, it is really simple. Lone maverick researchers out to do good are nice guys. If there was anything really wrong with unofficially gathering blood samples at a birthday party at your house at a tenner a pop without ethical oversight...
There was no money involved.
Another fine example of due diligence and research by our favorite crusader for truth and vaccine safety! Actually, there was, as came out in his fitness to practice hearing. You can look it up if you want. But hey, let's not let this discussion get dominated by mere facts! Better to just claim there was no money involved when you don't actually know if there was or wasn't.

In fairness, I was wrong too. It was actually a fiver.

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
or conducting research while you are patenting a replacement vaccine]
He was not patenting a vaccine or anything that was in competition with the MMR shot.
Again - stellar investigative work from a concerned parent doing her due dilligence!

I mean just because patent application 9711663.6 states explicitly that "the present invention relates to a new vaccine for the elimination of MMR and measles virus" and then goes on to mention that "I have therefor now discovered a combined vaccine/therapeutic agent which is not only most probably safer to administer to neonates and others by way of vaccination" does not mean it was in competition, per se. :lol:

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
and getting paid as a consultant for litigators looking to start a big lucrative case to do with those exact same vaccines without reporting a conflict of interest, then his conscience would not let him do it because he is a nice guy, so it is fine
He was not paid as a consultant for litigators in order to make a false case. You're right, his conscience would never have let him do it.
Exactly! No need to worry about the half million pounds he was paid by litigators looking to create a lucrative class action suit: he would never have taken that money in order to make a false case. It is only a conflict of interest if bad people get paid, like lobbyists for big pharma.

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
All those little details are at worst just minor oversights that do not in the least make them or their work suspect in any way. I mean, he is a maverick, right? He is going it alone in the face of a nameless, faceless monolith of uncaring government authorities being influenced by deep-pocketed corporations out to protect their interests. He is taking the path less traveled, selflessly risking it all in order to destroy the conspiracy of silence created by these money-grubbing, heartless corporate shills. And what more proof do you need when you look at the outcome? Just look at how he was tarred and feathered, pilloried, publicly lynched, hung, drawn and quartered! And for what? While what he did was technically against just about every rule for ethical research, the end result is that he was utterly annihilated down to the very last particle for mere peccadilloes because it involved disturbing their little money-making schemes!
That's not what this was about. He was contacted by parents because he was a researcher of gastroenterology and their children were suffering. He didn't pick and choose the children to make his study look clean. He didn't break any rules. He got ethical approval other than at the birthday party.
Exactly: all those pesky little details don't matter if it is a selfless savior of sick little babbies is concerned. He didn't break any rules. Independent ethical oversight and disclosure of possible conflicts of interests are more, like, guidelines.

But those big companies? They are shady, man! Constantly passing each other juicy little consulting deals, and making sure it is in a researchers best interest to find things a certain way. Totally suspect!

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
So, there is no reason at all to assume there is anything wrong with Wakefield's study, and the way he was taken to task is just more proof how corrupt everybody else in that business is. Drain the swamp!
Right, it's about making sure his reputation gets decimated so no one would even question the validity of his study.
Decimated! I knew I skipped a hyperbole.

See? When nice guys get taken to task for breaking the rules it is evidence of a conspiracy to silence them.

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Originally Posted by Vivisectus
Of course, there are also guys who are not necessarily nice. These are the researchers whose studies we should not trust, because there is a lot of money involved in big pharma and conflicts of interest can easily creep in, as Peacegirl never ceases to warn us. And we all know how easily money changes hands in the shady, inhuman world of Big Pharma. Juicy consulting contracts handed to researchers that are supposed to be independent, shady kickbacks from the research into new medicines that no-one really needs in return for some fudged data... you name it. Knowing this should make us treat any study at all with deep suspicion!

So, there is every reason to assume there are things wrong with those studies, and the people involved should be taken to task in order to clear up the corruption that is rife in the medical system. Drain the swamp!

And if you need to know which is which, just ask Peacegirl.
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  #6048  
Old 12-08-2016, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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But those big companies? They are shady, man! Constantly passing each other juicy little consulting deals, and making sure it is in a researchers best interest to find things a certain way. Totally suspect!
Fear not, Vivisectus - I am informed that the actions of consultants and lobbyists for global pharmaceutical and vaccine manufacturers are entirely ethical at all times. Their consciences would not permit them to proceed otherwise.

In addition, there is no money involved.
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  #6049  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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  #6050  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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Antivaccinationists promote a bogus internet “survey.” Hilarity ensues as it’s retracted. – Respectful Insolence

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There’s another interesting wrinkle to this paper, and that’s who peer reviewed it. One of the peer reviewers was Linda Mullin Elkins, a chiropractor at Life University, a “university” that portrays itself as:
We are at the forefront of the vitalistic health revolution by offering studies within the fields of Chiropractic, Functional Kinesiology, Vitalistic Nutrition, Positive Psychology, Functional Neurology and Positive Business, using entrepreneurship for social change.
“Vitalistic nutrition”? “Functional kinesiology”? “Vitalistic health revolution”? Yes, there’s some serious, serious woo there. Elkins is not a qualified peer reviewer for a paper like this—or for any peer reviewer. Then there is the issue of the journal itself. Frontiers in Public Health is published by Frontiers Media, which is on Beall’s list of predatory open access publishers. Such predatory open access journals follow a business model that involves charging publication fees to authors to publish just about anything.
So yeah. The study (:lol:) got yanked by a vanity publishing outfit.
I saw the reviewer from "Life University" an figured that the paper wouldn't have a problem from them, but I was mildly surprised at the review from an actual PhD from a real university.

Ever since the last time peacegirl brought up this, I've been tempted to contact this other reviewer, just to see how they justified allowing this to be published.
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