Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Philosophy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-27-2016, 07:27 PM
Gnostic Christian Bishop's Avatar
Gnostic Christian Bishop Gnostic Christian Bishop is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: CCCLXVI
Default This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own golden

This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own golden rule.

God kills when he could just as easily cure. This is irrefutable.

This is a clear violation of the golden rule. The golden rule as articulated by Jesus.

God then is clearly evil.

Do you agree with Jesus that anyone who breaks the golden rule is evil?

Regards
DL
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-27-2016, 07:57 PM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMCCXX
Images: 11
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

There's no reason to believe gods exist and the Golden Rule is a decent starting point, but ultimately too simplistic.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (11-27-2016), JoeP (11-28-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016), Kyuss Apollo (12-03-2016), Stephen Maturin (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-27-2016), The Man (11-27-2016)
  #3  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:20 PM
The Lone Ranger's Avatar
The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
Jin, Gi, Rei, Ko, Chi, Shin, Tei
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: MXCXCIII
Images: 523
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

I agree that the Bible unambiguously portrays the "God" character as hypocritical, cruel, unfair, and downright evil -- not to mention just plain stupid at times. I've never understood how anyone who has actually read the Bible can say things like "God is love" or even "God is good" with a straight face. One can easily make the case that the Bible portrays Satan as a far more benevolent character.


That having been said, since we're talking about a made-up being, I don't worry about it too much -- no more than I do the evil of Sauron or Lord Voldemort.
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (11-28-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016), Kyuss Apollo (12-03-2016), The Man (11-27-2016)
  #4  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:21 PM
lisarea's Avatar
lisarea lisarea is offline
Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: XVMXCIII
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 3
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

My mind is getting blown too many times today!
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Ari (11-27-2016), Stephen Maturin (11-28-2016), Stormlight (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-27-2016), The Man (11-27-2016)
  #5  
Old 11-27-2016, 08:34 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Given the Golden Rule I was under the impression that God was into some heavy S & M in the early years.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Ari (11-27-2016), JoeP (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-27-2016), The Man (11-27-2016)
  #6  
Old 11-27-2016, 09:48 PM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is online now
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: MXLXX
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

The golden rule in the old testament is effectively to do unto other kin as you would have them do unto you. So God shouldnt be an asshole to other gods. Humans on the other hand are fair game.

This fits with how humans see the rule, unless you think we want cows to eat us.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (11-29-2016), JoeP (11-28-2016), Stephen Maturin (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-27-2016), The Man (11-27-2016)
  #7  
Old 11-27-2016, 11:26 PM
apathist's Avatar
apathist apathist is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: LXX
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
Given the Golden Rule I was under the impression that God was into some heavy S & M in the early years.
you suppose god is doing the best he can

man, plus, girls, that was hard to type
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:15 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by apathist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
Given the Golden Rule I was under the impression that God was into some heavy S & M in the early years.
you suppose god is doing the best he can

man, plus, girls, that was hard to type
I have no idea what this means, so here's Florence Henderson doing S&M burlesque.

__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (11-29-2016), Stephen Maturin (11-28-2016)
  #9  
Old 11-28-2016, 12:36 AM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Refreshingly Stupid
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMDCCCXLVI
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
Do you agree with Jesus that anyone who breaks the golden rule is evil?
Anyone who adheres to the Golden Rule is self-centered and presumptuous.
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (11-28-2016), lisarea (11-28-2016), slimshady2357 (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-28-2016), The Man (11-28-2016), Watser? (11-28-2016)
  #10  
Old 11-28-2016, 02:14 AM
apathist's Avatar
apathist apathist is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: LXX
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

I was trying to be not man-centric plus a deeper thought.

I am proud of this board right now.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-28-2016, 09:16 AM
Vivisectus's Avatar
Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
Astroid the Foine Loine between a Poirate and a Farrrmer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCCCVIII
Blog Entries: 1
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

The problem is not that the God of the Bible does not abide by his own rules. The problem is that it isn't a single document, but a compilation of documents that seem to have been written between 500 BCE to 500 ce, give or take a century or so.

You can hardly expect it to be consistent. People with vastly different agendas, social and historical backgrounds, and goals wrote it. And redacted it. And re-wrote the redaction, appending bits of older narratives to the new bits, because they wanted to borrow the authority of the older text, but now they wanted the outcome of the text to match their own goals, in a completely different society / political situation / historical setting etc.

What is surprising is that this has been common knowledge among anyone but the most amazingly uninformed for well over a century, and yet people still insist on using as a sort of operating manual for life and the world, a sort of face-value document you can just read and then draw straightforward conclusions from.

I think any thoughtful religious person would agree that you can read the Bible for inspiration, but that saying stuff like "God is/thinks/wants so and so because here there is a passage in the Bible that seems to agree" is foolhardy.

And frankly, I like that about the Bible: we all think we have read it, but it remains impossible to pin down definitively. If you are really honest, you can never use it as a authority over someone else: whatever opinion you want the Bible to justify, there is a good chance you will find it saying the exact opposite in some other part.

The Bible does not really allow for the kind of simplistic statements like "God is A because here it says B". Which is funny because it seems to be what a lot of people spend a lot of time doing with it, including the OP.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (11-29-2016), Ari (11-28-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-28-2016), The Man (11-28-2016)
  #12  
Old 11-28-2016, 11:32 AM
mickthinks's Avatar
mickthinks mickthinks is offline
Trying to find the actual stastics
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
Posts: VMDCCCXV
Images: 19
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Anyone who adheres to the Golden Rule is self-centered and presumptuous.
That is perverse.
__________________
... it's just an idea
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-28-2016, 06:21 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
Donald Trump is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: MVCCVI
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

No, not really. It’s an intrinsically self-centred view of morality for a rather simple reason: not everyone likes or wants to be treated in the same way. Some people are into extreme S&M. Does that mean they should do that to others who aren’t? Of course not. It’s a ridiculous, stupid, overly simplistic way to look at the world. It might be suitable for kindergarteners but it’s certainly not suitable for adults. Any decent conception of morality and empathy requires recognising that not everyone wants the same things. A far better guiding ethical principle would be “Do unto others as they would like to be done unto.”
__________________


“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith

“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

FG · last.fm · soundcloud
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (11-28-2016), JoeP (11-28-2016), The Lone Ranger (11-29-2016), Vivisectus (11-29-2016), Watser? (11-28-2016)
  #14  
Old 12-02-2016, 05:09 PM
mickthinks's Avatar
mickthinks mickthinks is offline
Trying to find the actual stastics
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
Posts: VMDCCCXV
Images: 19
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Dude, you misunderstand the ethics of the golden rule if you think it's about how to manage your sexual encounters. Of course tastes differ, but tastes are not morals, and unless you also think there are people who want to be lied to, beaten, imprisoned, stolen from, insulted, degraded, and otherwise abused without their consent, this quibbling about sexual proclivities is trivializing the issue.

The golden rule doesn't demand that we impose our tastes; sexual, aesthetic or culinary; on each other. On the contrary, it requires me to respect your right to your tastes just as you respect my right to mine.

There is nothing self-centered or presumptuous about it.
__________________
... it's just an idea
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016), Pan Narrans (12-02-2016), ShottleBop (12-04-2016)
  #15  
Old 12-02-2016, 05:44 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
Donald Trump is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: MVCCVI
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

I really don't think it is. Read literally, it says to do to people what you want from them, not what they want from you. It literally is placing yourself before others; it is centring your entire conception of the world on what you want, not on what others want. It is also placing your entire expectation of the world on what you want. That is incredibly presumptuous. As Matlock put it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
First, write out the standard iteration of the Golden Rule. Second, think about what's on the paper in front of you until you understand just how self-centered it is. Third, rewrite the Golden Rule in a manner that truly places others first. I think you'll be surprised at how easy it is.
My comment about sexual proclivities is an extreme example, but that's hardly the only case where other people don't want the same things; the same goes for politics and anything open to aesthetic differences, just off the top of my head. A lot of people do not possess the level of ethical understanding to figure this out on their own, and if read literally, as most people will read it, the rule leads to a self-centred conception of morality. And if you don't think people will read it literally, you have far more faith in people than is merited in a year that gave us Donald Drumpf and Brexit. This is why the rule, as phrased, is at best imperfect and at worst outright destructive.

To be fair, it would still be an improvement on how many people look at the world, but there's no reason to be pushing for an imperfect conception of morality when we can improve on it.
__________________


“All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” -Adam Smith

“If you took the most ardent revolutionary, vested him in absolute power, within a year he would be worse than the Tsar himself.” -Mikhail Bakunin

FG · last.fm · soundcloud
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (12-02-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016)
  #16  
Old 12-02-2016, 06:28 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

The various rules, gold, silver, tin, etc. are generally presented as a personal code of conduct, but even the Platinum rule of 'Treat others the way they want to be treated' leaves a lot of room for presupposition if actual communication is ignored or impossible.

And often a 'best intent' rule of thumb is the best we got in new and unfamiliar situations. So, in the words of the Great Ones: Be excellent to each other, and party on, dude.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), Crumb (12-02-2016), ShottleBop (12-04-2016), The Man (12-02-2016)
  #17  
Old 12-02-2016, 07:12 PM
lisarea's Avatar
lisarea lisarea is offline
Solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: XVMXCIII
Blog Entries: 1
Images: 3
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
The golden rule doesn't demand that we impose our tastes; sexual, aesthetic or culinary; on each other. On the contrary, it requires me to respect your right to your tastes just as you respect my right to mine.

There is nothing self-centered or presumptuous about it.
That is the best interpretation, but there really are people who seem to apply it to much more specific situations and just project their own preferences onto other people. People being really insistent about trying to get you to listen to music they like or do the things they like doing. There really are a lot of people who project their own preferences onto others, and many of them literally don't seem to understand that not everyone is like them.

Oh, here is one that I've noticed pretty recently. There's this thing that must have originated in customer service or something where people think everyone wants emotional validation or something. So if you're asking a question about some customer service thing, they'll start out by saying something like, "That sounds really frustrating" or "I'm sorry you're having a hard time" or something. I mean, it's not making my life miserable or anything, but I personally find it kind of annoying (here I predict and ideally deflect a joke someone is getting ready to tell). It comes across to me like the way you'd talk to a fussy toddler, and it seems a little presumptuous to me to assume I'm looking for emotional validation from whoever gets assigned my ticket.

But it is apparently the current gold standard for 'empathetic communication' or something, and I've seen people doing that in regular human interactions a lot too. And it certainly seems to be based on a too-broad (too narrow maybe?) variation on the Golden Rule.

So I think you'reright that the Golden Rule should be sufficient, but there really are a lot of people who seem to need some extra clarification that their own preferences and perspectives aren't universal.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), Ari (12-02-2016), But (12-02-2016), JoeP (12-02-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016), mickthinks (12-02-2016), The Man (12-02-2016)
  #18  
Old 12-02-2016, 08:28 PM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is online now
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: MXLXX
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
It comes across to me like the way you'd talk to a fussy toddler,
Perhaps because they spend their time mostly talking to fussy toddlers.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
lisarea (12-02-2016), The Man (12-03-2016)
  #19  
Old 12-02-2016, 08:44 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
It comes across to me like the way you'd talk to a fussy toddler,
Perhaps because they spend their time mostly talking to fussy toddlers.
Kinda funny, a few weeks back I had trouble with a hotel website so I called the number, got the empathy approach start from the client help person, and spun it back with a 'Yeah, I can just imagine some of the jerks you must get.' And went on to show empathy for the programmers of the site, praise the operator as a credit to the profession, which got them into a little small talk, did the room reservation business, they put me down for some random bonus discount. Call concluded with a mutual well wish. I suppose they're fired now for failing to keep the call between 1:30 - 2:15.

But I notice I do that a lot everywhere. Parking ticket dispute at city hall. "Hey, this is sort of confusing and I really can't stand the thought of being one of those yelling idiots you must see every day here." Clerk: "Hahahaha, you're definitely not one of those yelling idiots. Let's see if I can get this taken care of." lol, ticket cancelled.

So I guess where I'm rambling with this is, that corporate empathy approach may feel trite, but there is something to being known as the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons.

eta: And I know how to turn the dick factor up to 11 when needed. It's just rare that it's ever needed.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), JoeP (12-02-2016), lisarea (12-02-2016), ShottleBop (12-04-2016), Sock Puppet (12-04-2016), Stephen Maturin (12-02-2016), Stormlight (12-05-2016), The Man (12-03-2016)
  #20  
Old 12-02-2016, 09:13 PM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Refreshingly Stupid
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMDCCCXLVI
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
For anyone in search of a new custom user title.
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), Crumb (12-03-2016), JoeP (12-03-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016), Pan Narrans (12-02-2016), Sock Puppet (12-04-2016), Stormlight (12-05-2016), The Man (12-03-2016)
  #21  
Old 12-02-2016, 09:47 PM
mickthinks's Avatar
mickthinks mickthinks is offline
Trying to find the actual stastics
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
Posts: VMDCCCXV
Images: 19
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea View Post
So if you're asking a question about some customer service thing, they'll start out by saying something like, "That sounds really frustrating" or "I'm sorry you're having a hard time" or something. ... but there really are a lot of people who seem to need some extra clarification that their own preferences and perspectives aren't universal.
Now the confusion is between ethics and marketing. There is no evidence that the poor people employed to be polite to complaining customers like being spoken to the way they are required to speak to the clients. And neither is there reason to suppose that their spielbuch is written with goodwill to humankind in mind.
__________________
... it's just an idea
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), Kamilah Hauptmann (12-02-2016)
  #22  
Old 12-02-2016, 10:18 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann View Post
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
For anyone in search of a new custom user title.
I almost just did that, but that'll probably set the bar for myself unrealistically high. And Refreshingly Stupid is already taken.
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (12-03-2016), JoeP (12-03-2016), Kyuss Apollo (12-03-2016), Stephen Maturin (12-02-2016)
  #23  
Old 12-03-2016, 03:23 AM
Crumb's Avatar
Crumb Crumb is online now
Cmurb!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cascadia
Gender: Male
Posts: LVMMXXIX
Blog Entries: 22
Images: 355
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

You should totally take it. Otherwise you might get stuck with something really dumb. :shifty:
__________________
:joecool2: :cascadia: :ROR: :portland: :joecool2:
:glare:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Kamilah Hauptmann (12-03-2016)
  #24  
Old 12-03-2016, 05:19 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
the least dickish one in a room full of jackwagons
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: MMCMVII
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
You should totally take it. Otherwise you might get stuck with something really dumb. :shifty:
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-03-2016, 07:52 AM
Sauron's Avatar
Sauron Sauron is offline
Dark Lord, on the Dark Throne
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: VDCCLXXXVII
Images: 157
Default Re: This is incontrovertible proof that God is evil. God does not live by his own gol

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger
no more than I do the evil of Sauron or Lord Voldemort.
I HEARD THAT.

__________________
In the land of Mordor, where the shadows lie...:sauron:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (12-03-2016), Kyuss Apollo (12-03-2016), Stephen Maturin (12-03-2016), Stormlight (12-05-2016), The Lone Ranger (12-03-2016), The Man (12-03-2016), Watser? (12-03-2016)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Marketplace > Philosophy


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.49551 seconds with 14 queries