So, Jennifer and Katie came by to talk for a bit today.
The upshot is that neither of them wants to take any kind of action at the moment. According to both of them, Professor Groper pays much more attention to Jennifer than to Katie, and is much more "handsy" where Jennifer is concerned.
That makes sense. Katie would slap him if he got really inappropriate. And Joan would kick Professor Groper in the groin if he ever touched her inappropriately. But Jennifer, Jennifer will ... put up with it. I'm not entirely convinced that there's anything he could do that would make her retaliate. As I've mentioned before, Jennifer has occasionally said things which make me suspect that -- at some level -- she believes that she deserves such treatment, or at least that she doesn't think she has the right to fight back in any way. (It's probably a major step for her that she felt a.) comfortable-enough with me that she'd even bring the subject up and b.) sufficiently upset about the situation to flat-out say "I wish that Professor Groper would stop sexually harassing me".)
And frankly, I think that Jennifer is Professor Groper's "type." First, she's strikingly beautiful. Second, she is -- as she herself says -- "very vulnerable." It would be so easy for some guy to take advantage of her and, in the process, destroy what little self-esteem she possesses.
That's probably why I feel so protective toward her.
It doesn't help, I think, that she's apparently receiving some pressure from her parents to be a "good daughter" -- to find a guy, settle down, and start making babies. The attitude that a woman's "proper" role is to be a stay-at-home wife and mother is very common around here. Meanwhile, Jennifer is a smart, hard-working young woman who wants to be a physician; it would be a tragedy if she were to be pressured into giving up that dream.
That she's not being a "good daughter" and doing what her parents want her to do is probably part of why she has so little self-esteem.
Anyway, neither Jennifer nor Katie want to do anything about Professor Groper at the moment. Jennifer, in particular, is concerned that if she were to complain, even anonymously, Professor Groper would work out that the complaint originated with her. She's concerned that even if I was the one who lodged the complaint, it would be traced back to her.
She has a point; Professor Groper isn't stupid, and if what they tell me is true, Jennifer is his principle target. Few -- if any -- of the other girls in the class would put up with as much as she will, and I'm sure Professor Groper knows that. Jennifer says that she's just hoping to keep her head down and make it through the semester.
They both stressed that they don't think Professor Groper's a bad guy -- they figure that he doesn't know that a lot of what he says is offensive, and that he can be very inappropriate when/where he touches them.
I told them that he's a grown man, and that if he hasn't learned by now that he shouldn't tell students inappropriately sexual and sexist jokes/stories and touch students inappropriately and without their permission -- then it's high time he did. Besides, it's hard to dismiss some of what they've told me as entirely innocent. Like putting his hand on the inside of Jennifer's thigh, for instance.
Still, if they don't want to make a complaint and don't want me to make one on their behalf, I'm going to respect their wishes, of course. Both of them told me that they'd prefer to wait, for now. If his behavior gets worse or more blatant, they said that they'll reconsider.
I think it's best that I make a note of what they've told me though, for possible future reference. These two aren't the first to tell me they're ... uncomfortable with his behavior, and I suspect that they won't be the last.
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“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
It doesn't help, I think, that she's apparently receiving some pressure from her parents to be a "good daughter" -- to find a guy, settle down, and start making babies. The attitude that a woman's "proper" role is to be a stay-at-home wife and mother is very common around here.
Prof. Abhijit Banerjee of MIT "and wife" have won the 2019 Nobel Prize for Economics. The "wife" is Esther Duflo, who's also an economics prof at MIT. She received roughly the same treatment in that headline as The Professor and Mary Ann received in the original Gilligan's Island theme song.
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"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis
"Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko
Just fyi, news sources around here identify Esther Duflo, Abhijit Banerjee and Michael Kremer without describing any of them in relation to the others or as "another economist".
Given that it's an Indian source we might ascribe their bias to nationalism rather than as well as sexism.
I also note that the "accept cookies" popup calls the publication "Businsess Insider" - 3 times, not just once. So they don't care much about spelling or language. Just Indian men.
I found this attempted rebuttal of that Blair opinion piece: Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies . It's not very interesting—Clark has an agenda, and it's similar if not identical to other abstinence and anti-abortion agendas.
However, Clark makes what seems like a valid point about condom failure rates:
Which set me thinking: just what is the failure rate of condoms? How often do they break during intercourse?
Clark seems to be echoing this near ubiquitous warning:
Quote:
Originally posted at Human Life International
22 major studies of more than 40,000 condoms used during heterosexual intercourse in five different countries have found that 4.6% of all the condoms broke and 2.5% of them partially or completely slipped off, for a total failure rate of 7.1%. That means that about 1 in 14 uses results in condom failure.
Now, I have been using condoms on and off (lol pun not completely unwanted) all my sexually active life, and that just does not square with my experience. I have never had a breakage during sex and none of my partners has conceived from condom-protected sex. So I'm thinking these figures are ... er, unreliable, and I start looking for better stats.
Reliable condom breakage and failure figures from trustworthy sources turn out to be hard to find. The best I've found are from here
“Through no fault”
Yeah no, probably through some fault.
Actual condom defect is practically unheard of, especially in some brands that literally check every condom. Most condom breakage happens from accident misuse, from either a lack of lube allowing a part to get pinched instead of slide, to using the wrong lube since oil based lubes break down latex, etc. it almost always comes down to not understanding how to use a condom. So yeah I bet you could cherry pick some counties where ‘only whores carry condoms’ and find all sorts of misuse.
Does that guy think he's actually saying anything non-obvious? The original is a reframing of the way people think about those issues, and all he's doing is repeating the common arguments as though they're somehow novel.
I like the part where he calls her emotional, though, and quotes some facile observation from "Samuel Taylor Coleslaw" as sensible.
I recently had a discussion with a former colleague (she has quit the college and gone elsewhere) about the Jennifer/Katie situation and Professor Groper.
She says that I had "no right" to promise them that I would keep them anonymous and that I wouldn't file a report. Because I'm required by law to report every allegation of sexual harassment. She said that yes, I'll probably be fired as a result -- and that I should then sue the school.
She stated further that the students have no right to expect me to keep quiet. She also claimed that they told me in confidence because they trust me, and that they'll understand if I "have to" file a report -- despite their wish that the incident not be reported.
I'm ... not so sure about this.
First, I don't think she's entirely correct. I do think that Jennifer and Katie trust me, or they wouldn't have told me in the first place -- but I don't think that they'd agree to let me file a report. They were both adamant that they don't want a report filed -- partly because they don't think Professor Groper is actually malicious, and partly because they fear that they and/or I (bless them!) would get into trouble if a formal complaint were to be lodged.
And a promise is something that I hold very dear. I promised them that I would abide by their decision, and even if I had no "right" to make such a promise, the fact remains that I did, and so I intend to abide by it.
I'm debating whether I should submit an anonymous report that names no names -- but even that seems like it would be violating my promise to Jennifer and Katie, and going against their express wishes.
My ex-colleague tells me that a complaint was lodged against Professor Groper in the past, and he was told to get counseling. I'm guessing that it didn't take?
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
Oh no no no, based on the little you’ve described I can say with good certainty they didn’t tell you in some sort of hopes that you would deal with it for them, or sigh and shrug their shoulders if you just happen to report something told to you in confidence. This information is still theirs, they’ve just let you know it, but they certainly haven’t given it to you to run off with.
I don’t know what laws your state has but if it was me I would just pretend such a thing as Teacher Student privilege exists and seals me from speaking until shown otherwise.
My personal opinion is that Groper knows the dance and how to play the system right, to quote Pam, if you come at him you must come correct. Your ducks need to be in a row and claim solid otherwise it’s going to do not much of anything for him but cause problems for you. While I’m not quite sure he’s a Yakuza level player able to drift with Pam (wait what am I even talking about again) to do some good it will probably take more than just an anonymous report of shitty behavior.
Yeah, I'm sure he knows how to play the game. I've heard rumors of past indiscretions on his part, and now I've been flat-out told that he has been reported for sexual harassment in the past. The fact that he still has his position suggests that there's little likelihood of anything being done unless he outright assaults someone.
As for Jennifer and Katie, they told me in confidence and have made it clear to me that they don't want their identities to be revealed. When I suggested that they either report the incidents themselves or allow me to do so on their behalf while keeping their identities secret, they refused. They're concerned that it will be traced back to them (it's a small school, and secrets have a way of getting out; besides, Professor Groper isn't stupid, the limit of possible "suspects" is small-enough that he'd probably figure out who ratted him out) and that they will get into trouble and/or I will get into trouble (again, bless their kind and caring hearts!) for sticking up for them and siding against a man who is technically my boss.
So, even if it is technically illegal (I'm no expert in such matters), I'm going to operate on the pretense that neither Jennifer nor Katie has said anything at all to me. If Professor Groper goes far-enough that they decide to file a complaint, we'll go from there, and I'll support them to the best of my ability.
My ex-colleague may not like it, but she can't very well force me to reveal Jennifer and Katie's identities*, nor can she force me to file a complaint on their behalf. And if that bothers her, she'll just have to live with it. I am not going to break my promise to Jennifer and Katie.
If I thought that there was a real chance Professor Groper might commit outright sexual assault, it might be different, I suppose. But the students are adamant that he's creepy and inappropriate, but not outright malicious. He probably thinks he isn't doing anything wrong, and that he's just being "friendly." I've told Jennifer and Katie that his behavior very definitely is wrong, and as an adult in a position of authority, he absolutely should know that. (Especially since, if my ex-colleague is correct, he has been warned against such behavior in the past.)
And in my opinion, some of his behavior goes very far into the "creepy" part of the spectrum. Like telling Jennifer that she'd be a good stripper, for instance. In what Universe does a teacher think that something like that is an appropriate thing to tell a student?
I think it might be wise to advise Jennifer and Katie that they should be careful about bringing the issue up with any other faculty or staff members. But I will assure them that they'll always be free to discuss it with me, especially if Professor Groper's inappropriate behavior escalates.
"Teacher-Student privilege" -- thank you for that! I shall have to remember that phrase, because I have indeed been operating on that principle, and shall continue to do so.
*In case it isn't obvious, I haven't been using their real names, precisely because I don't feel that would be proper.
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“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
She said that yes, I'll probably be fired as a result -- and that I should then sue the school.
I think the recent history of the US (well before Trump) shows that whistleblowers against the entitled establishment do not get treated well.
As Ari says, those girls did not confide in you in the expectation that you would go against their stated wish not to report it. And I would look very carefully at your former colleague's motivation for what she says if she believes that (probably a laudable motivation that somebody has to do something, but still).
*In case it isn't obvious, I haven't been using their real names, precisely because I don't feel that would be proper.
Since you didn't include Professor Groper in this disclaimer I'm going to assume that's his real name. Not that nominative determinism would be a defence.
I didn't know how to say it so I wouldn't sound like I was talking out of my ass, but I think Ari nailed it. Whether or not it exists in any legal sense some form of teacher-student confidentiality sounds like the best way to handle this. For you, for them especially, it very likely exists ethically.
In a better world - not even so far as a perfect one, just a better one - a Star Trek world, if it were, you could approach the offending party and enumerate his actions and their repercussions. He would likely resist some but in the end realize that his actions have unappreciated consequences and he, and the world would become just that slightly bit a better place. (Or, alternatively, you could look around - is there something you can use as a lathe?)
But that's not where we are. We're still in the world where abusers are protected, or if not protected exactly then simply not punished because of 'omg the shear embarrassment of it all!' (Which as we all know is no different as being protected.) And worse, the same world where accusers are punished. Their academic lives would be in shambles. At least at this university and likely to any ones that they can transfer to easily.
At a minimum Pr Groper deserves to be followed by someone with a squirt bottle who every time he looks at a student oddly gets sprayed with water and told in a loud even and firm voice "No. Bad." It's too bad you're busy most of the day with your own duties though, right?
So, even if it is technically illegal (I'm no expert in such matters)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamilah Hauptmann
Wondering when a good time would be for TLR to consult a lawyer for actual for real client attorney privilege. Also how up to date the resume is.
Lawyer up now, is my take. Also, get a complete copy of the school's actual, written sexual harassment policy, and provide it to the attorney. You should be able to get an affordable consultation, and while you won't get it resolved in one meeting, they'll give you an idea of what your actual duties and rights are in the situation. And they'll be prepared if you do end up needing them going forward; otherwise you're just out the initial fee, which IMO will be worth it.
If you need funds, we can start a little one here. I'll pitch in something.
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"Her eyes in certain light were violet, and all her teeth were even. That's a rare, fair feature: even teeth. She smiled to excess, but she chewed with real distinction." - Eleanor of Aquitaine
I know the Oregon Bar will connect you with a lawyer that specializes in the type legal situation appropriate to your concerns and charges a flat $50 fee for an intitial consult. I've done that a few times and often the $50 is waived and I know how to proceed from there. It's a great service and worth $50 for peace of mind.
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Ishmaeline of Domesticity drinker of smurf tears
Wow, I don't think I've seen a triple-decker club shit sandwich quite like that before.
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"Her eyes in certain light were violet, and all her teeth were even. That's a rare, fair feature: even teeth. She smiled to excess, but she chewed with real distinction." - Eleanor of Aquitaine
Because we all know that women and gay mean can't plan events....?
I'm uh. YEAH.
After dealing with a bunch of men at a certain company (COUGH NIANTIC) who can't plan shit, I'm of the opinion that men should be paid less than both of those other groups.
Or a bot or robot.
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Ishmaeline of Domesticity drinker of smurf tears
As I was being introduced, they said “she’s been researching sexual harassment in archaeology”, to which a large group of older men laughed. Fully laughed - to the point that the presenter had to say “it isn’t funny”.
So, I've mentioned Professor Slacker before -- you know, the guy who makes no pretense whatsoever that he cares about the students and makes no effort whatsoever to teach them anything. Needless to say, the students pretty-much universally loathe him.
His wife, Penny, also teaches in the department. Penny is, to put it bluntly, a bully. She enjoys tormenting and belittling students; sometimes, at lunch, she will brag about how she made some poor student cry.
They're quite a pair, Penny and Professor Slacker.
Professor Slacker is about 10 years older than Penny is. How is that relevant? Well, I found out today.
It all began at lunch. While I was examining the salad bar, a student, Lexie, came up, greeted me, and gave me a great big hug. I've gotten used to it; Lexie has decided that she likes me, and she's not shy about showing her affection toward those people she likes.
Lexie and I have a sort of history. She's had a couple of classes with me, and so we know each other fairly well. Once, last year, I was walking home and as I passed by the Student Union, a student came out and said, "There's a girl in there and she's freaking out!" On a hunch, I asked, "Is she of about medium height, with red hair?" "Yeah, how'd you know?" the student asked.
So, I went in and quickly learned that it was indeed Lexie. As it turned out, she had forgotten to take her anxiety medication and was having a full-blown panic attack. So, I went to talk to her. Upon seeing me, she ran up and hugged me; we sat down on a bench and we sat there for an hour or so as I held her while she literally cried on my shoulder.
Ever since, whenever she sees me, Lexie usually gives me a big hug. She doesn't mean anything improper by it; she's just being affectionate -- and perhaps grateful. Heck, she has a boyfriend and he's a very decent fellow (he doesn't hug me whenever he sees me, granted). When I encounter Lexie and her boyfriend on campus, Lexie will usually come up and hug me; he's perfectly aware of why she does it, I'm sure.
Anyway, why is this significant? Well, a little after lunch today, my colleague Laura told me that Penny "went on a rampage" after I left, ranting and raving for several minutes about the fact that Lexie hugged me -- "right in front of everyone, like there was nothing wrong with it -- and he let her!"
According to Laura, once Penny got properly wound up, she was practically shouting: "Michael isn't a hugger, so why does he let students hug him!?"
Really? It's certainly true that I'm not a "hugger" by nature. But I'm certainly not going to refuse if a student wants to hug me -- what greater complement could they give me?
When she told about the incident, Laura was laughing by this point. "You have no idea why Penny's so upset that Lexie hugged you and you let her do it, have you?" "I guess not," I had to admit.
So Laura told me that Penny had once confided in her that since she'll almost-certainly outlive Professor Slacker, she'll be "in need of a man" sooner or later. According to Laura, Penny declared that when/if something happens to Professor Slacker, she'll marry me. Laura said that she asked, "What if Michael doesn't want to marry you?" To this, Penny replied, "Oh, he will be mine."
So anyway, Laura claimed that Penny was jealous because I let Lexie hug me, and I returned the hug. And because, Laura pointed out, Penny knows perfectly well that I wouldn't want to hug her.
Okay, that's ... interesting. Oh, and for the record: when/if something happens to Professor Slacker, I will not be Penny's. There's no way I could ever find myself wanting to marry someone who belittles and bullies students -- and brags about doing so.
So, a little later, a student brought me a Christmas present. It's a lovely tin full of homemade cookies. Along with it, she gave me a lovely note telling me how much she has enjoyed my class this semester, and how she's looking forward to taking more classes with me in the future.
And she, too, gave me a big hug.
Well, I guess that didn't exactly make Penny's day.
Then, this afternoon, April came into my office. She flopped down in an empty chair and started telling me about Professor Slacker's latest outrage. He had assigned students to give presentations, but while they were giving their presentations, he was on his phone, watching videos. He wasn't even pretending to pay attention to the students' presentations, which they had worked on for weeks. At one point he slipped up and hit the "Volume" button, revealing to everyone who hadn't been close-enough to see for themselves that he wasn't paying the slightest bit of attention to the students' presentations, but was watching videos.
After complaining about Professor Slacker for awhile, April shifted to complaining about Professor Groper. She makes the third student this semester to tell me that Professor Groper is sexually harassing her.
She said that in addition to constantly trying to put his hands on pretty female students, he constantly talks about sex and comments on their bodies -- talking about their "boob size" and the like. April said that he has, on numerous occasions, asked her for pictures of her having sex with her girlfriend. She told me that on one occasion, just to shut him up, she told him, "I'll send you something later." She figured that'd be the end of it -- but at 1:30 in the morning, he sent her a text asking "where are my pictures?"
Geez! In what Universe would it be appropriate for a teacher to treat students like that?
Like Jennifer and Katie before her, April doesn't want to file a formal complaint, nor does she want me to do so on her behalf. She thinks that nothing will be done anyway -- after all, according to the rumor mill, the Administration has known about Professor Groper's behavior for years. (I think that's true; I made some careful inquiries, and an administrator in Human Resources told me confidentially that they have a great big folder full of complaints regarding Professor Groper. But for some reason, no action has been taken.)
April proposed the explanation that Professor Groper has some kind of dirt on the college President, and that's why he wasn't fired a long time ago. It seems like a fairly plausible explanation, frankly.
The other reason that April doesn't want to take any formal action -- or to have me take any kind of action -- is because she's sure Professor Groper would figure out who lodged the complaint. She told me that it's well-known on the campus that I'm friends with Jennifer and Katie, and that I'm friendly to and sympathetic toward female students -- and thus a good person to talk with about such things.
But, April says, if she, Katie, or Jennifer were to file a complaint -- or if I were to do so on their behalf, even if I refused to give any names -- Professor Groper would quickly figure out that one of them was responsible. And what he might do in retaliation isn't something that she wants to have to worry about. (And neither do Katie or Jennifer.)
We talked for nearly 2 hours. April was looking so despondent when she finally said that she had to leave that I spontaneously asked, "Would you like a hug, Sweetie?" "Yes," she said, in a very quiet voice. So I gave her a hug, and she gave me a great big smile as she left.
So, I discussed the issue afterward, with my colleague Laura. We're planning to get together this weekend to work out a plan.
Laura teaches math, and none of the students in question are taking any of her classes. Laura agrees with April, Jennifer, and Katie that if I file a complaint or just go to Professor Groper and tell him that I've had complaints about his behavior, he'll very quickly figure out which students have complained. And he might well decide to punish them somehow.
After all, Laura told me, it's well-known that I'm friends with Jennifer, Katie, and April. He'd quickly figure out that they're the students who would be most likely to come to me with complaints about his behavior.
So, we're thinking that maybe the best course of action is if Laura goes to Professor Groper and tells him that some students have approached her with complaints about his behavior.
Since Laura has no particular connection to Jennifer, Katie, or April (none of them are taking any courses with Laura, nor does Laura really know any of them), Professor Groper would have no particular reason to guess that any of those three would have gone to Laura to complain.
We'll try to come up with a plan that will let Professor Groper know that his behavior is inappropriate -- hopefully he'll pay attention! -- without giving any clues as to who might have complained.
Laura pointed something out: "You know, you've been hugged by three different pretty girls today; I'll bet that no girls have hugged Professor Groper today -- at least, not willingly. Maybe Professor Groper should be taking lessons."
__________________
“The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.”
-- Socrates
Last edited by The Lone Ranger; 12-06-2019 at 05:55 AM.
According to Laura, once Penny got properly wound up, she was practically shouting: "Michael isn't a hugger, so why would does he let students hug him!?"
I knew what the real issue would be before I read the next paragraph. It isn't so much that someone else is getting attention, it's that she isn't.
Oh, and also:
to both Professor Groper and Slacker and now Professor Dreadful.
Get it? Professor Dreadful? Penny Dreadful? Come on. This is comedy GOLD.
Re: Return to Gender 101
Not that nominative determinism would be a defence.
...........
to both Professor Groper and Slacker and now Professor Dreadful.
Linear Mode
