Self-Evident Truths

bobsavegan · #1 04-02-2015, 05:20 AM

Self-Evident Truths are the only perspective of the Human Condition that the Self can be certain of. They are a product of the mind's ability to think.

The first self-evident truth that the mind is aware of the existence of the Self. The second self-evident truth is that a first cause exists. The third self-evident truth is that any particular Human is connected to all Humans in general.

davidm · #2 04-02-2015, 05:34 AM

None of these are self-evident truths Bob.

bobsavegan · #3 04-02-2015, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

None of these are self-evident truths Bob.

They are self-evident truths to my mind. They are plain and require no explanation.

davidm · #4 04-02-2015, 06:45 AM

They may be self-evident to your mind, but you're wrong.

Your first so-called self-evident truth depends upon your idiosyncratic definition of "self." If we were to try to define a self-evident truth, one idea is that it would be a truth such that, if one were to deny it, one would bring about a logical contradiction. On this account, it might be a self evident truth to say, "I am conscious" because to state its converse, "I am not conscious," is logically self-contradictory, since the very statement presupposes a conscious agent making the statement. However, I don't think you use "self" in this way.

The second, that there was a first cause, not only fails to be self-evident, but is factually false according to modern physics.

The third is so vague as to be meaningless.

bobsavegan · #5 04-02-2015, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

They may be self-evident to your mind, but you're wrong.

Your first so-called self-evident truth depends upon your idiosyncratic definition of "self." If we were to try to define a self-evident truth, one idea is that it would be a truth such that, if one were to deny it, one would bring about a logical contradiction. On this account, it might be a self evident truth to say, "I am conscious" because to state its converse, "I am not conscious," is logically self-contradictory, since the very statement presupposes a conscious agent making the statement. However, I don't think you use "self" in this way.

The second, that there was a first cause, not only fails to be self-evident, but is factually false according to modern physics.

The third is so vague as to be meaningless.

All these self-evident truths are self-evident to my mind only as far as their existence is concerned. Their essence (what they are) is not self-evident. They are metaphysical so modern physics has nothing to do with the question of their existence.

davidm · #6 04-02-2015, 07:09 AM

What does the above even mean, Bob?

Of course physics speaks to the metaphysics.

Besides, you are not meeting the point. Regardless of whether your three propositions are true or false, you have not shown that they are self-evident. They are not.

Whether, for instance, there was a first cause, is now an empirical matter, a scientific matter, not a matter of speculation. Science suggests there was no first cause.

If you don't want to incorporate science (and philosophy, for that matter) into your own personal philosophy, you will be saying stuff that may have had warrant 2,000 years ago, but no longer does.

The ancient Greeks were wise old owls but frankly they got almost everything wrong. That's OK; they didn't have the shoulders of giants to stand on like we do.

bobsavegan · #7 04-02-2015, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

What does the above even mean, Bob?

Of course physics speaks to the metaphysics.

Besides, you are not meeting the point. Regardless of whether your three propositions are true or false, you have not shown that they are self-evident. They are not.

Whether, for instance, there was a first cause, is now an empirical matter, a scientific matter, not a matter of speculation. Science suggests there was no first cause.

If you don't want to incorporate science (and philosophy, for that matter) into your own personal philosophy, you will be saying stuff that may have had warrant 2,000 years ago, but no longer does.

The ancient Greeks were wise old owls but frankly they got almost everything wrong. That's OK; they didn't have the shoulders of giants to stand on like we do.

The self-evident truths are metaphysical and require search and find in the mind. Once found they are eternal, unaffected by the passage of time. Science is physical and requires research and unearthing. They are dependent on the passage of time and change as more facts are unearthed. At any given period of time the facts appear to be certain but in the following period of time they are replaced by new facts. Science only suggests the accuracy of the facts at any given period of time.

davidm · #8 04-02-2015, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

What does the above even mean, Bob?

Of course physics speaks to the metaphysics.

Besides, you are not meeting the point. Regardless of whether your three propositions are true or false, you have not shown that they are self-evident. They are not.

Whether, for instance, there was a first cause, is now an empirical matter, a scientific matter, not a matter of speculation. Science suggests there was no first cause.

If you don't want to incorporate science (and philosophy, for that matter) into your own personal philosophy, you will be saying stuff that may have had warrant 2,000 years ago, but no longer does.

The ancient Greeks were wise old owls but frankly they got almost everything wrong. That's OK; they didn't have the shoulders of giants to stand on like we do.

The self-evident truths are metaphysical and require search and find in the mind. Once found they are eternal, unaffected by the passage of time. Science is physical and requires research and unearthing. They are dependent on the passage of time and change as more facts are unearthed.

Sure, Bob, this is your silly self-delusion. Much easier to make shit up than actually study stuff.

bobsavegan · #9 04-02-2015, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

What does the above even mean, Bob?

Of course physics speaks to the metaphysics.

Besides, you are not meeting the point. Regardless of whether your three propositions are true or false, you have not shown that they are self-evident. They are not.

Whether, for instance, there was a first cause, is now an empirical matter, a scientific matter, not a matter of speculation. Science suggests there was no first cause.

If you don't want to incorporate science (and philosophy, for that matter) into your own personal philosophy, you will be saying stuff that may have had warrant 2,000 years ago, but no longer does.

The ancient Greeks were wise old owls but frankly they got almost everything wrong. That's OK; they didn't have the shoulders of giants to stand on like we do.

The self-evident truths are metaphysical and require search and find in the mind. Once found they are eternal, unaffected by the passage of time. Science is physical and requires research and unearthing. They are dependent on the passage of time and change as more facts are unearthed.

Sure, Bob, this is your silly self-delusion. Much easier to make shit up than actually study stuff.

In my past I have spent much time studying stuff. I only went to college for four semesters but made the Dean's List each of the semesters. I had a GPA of 3.85.

My knowledge may not be up to date as far as facts are concerned but that doesn't matter to me. All I have to do is read books to find the newest facts but I stopped reading books 10 years ago.

davidm · #10 04-02-2015, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

My knowledge may not be up to date as far as facts are concerned but that doesn't matter to me. All I have to do is read books to find the newest facts but I stopped reading books 10 years ago.

Yeah, we know Bob, and it shows.

bobsavegan · #11 04-02-2015, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

My knowledge may not be up to date as far as facts are concerned but that doesn't matter to me. All I have to do is read books to find the newest facts but I stopped reading books 10 years ago.

Yeah, we know Bob, and it shows.

I will always accept correction as far as facts are concerned but very little of my Philosophy of Life has to do with facts and for that matter Science in general.

BTW I didn't pursue more college education because I majored in Philosophy and foresaw many more years of education to get a PhD and then teach Academic Philosophy. It was the only option for a Philosophy Major available at the time. I decided I didn't want that future and dropped out to do more living in the everyday world of working for a living. It was a wise decision and I have no regrets.

davidm · #12 04-02-2015, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

My knowledge may not be up to date as far as facts are concerned but that doesn't matter to me. All I have to do is read books to find the newest facts but I stopped reading books 10 years ago.

Yeah, we know Bob, and it shows.

I will always accept correction as far as facts are concerned but very little of my Philosophy of Life has to do with facts and for that matter Science in general.

Great, Bob, so if it's not based on facts, it's based on bullshit.

When you assert these "self-evident truths" of yours, are you not asserting that it is a fact that they are self-evident? Of course you are. Now these claims are checkable. It turns out they are not self-evident truths. So, your claims are factually false; i.e., bullshit.

bobsavegan · #13 04-02-2015, 05:37 PM

Animal feces is useful as fertilizer.

naturalist.atheist · #14 04-02-2015, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Self-Evident Truths are the only perspective of my Condition that I can be certain of. They are a product of my mind's ability to think(sic).

The first self-evident truth that my mind is aware of is the existence of me. The second self-evident truth is that a first cause exists. The third self-evident truth is that I am connected to a few other people.

Bob, I have to agree. So far the only thing you appear to know is that you exist. Other than that, you got nothing.

JoeP · #15 04-03-2015, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Animal feces is useful as fertilizer.

Is that why you post so many bullshit threads?

-FX- · #16 11-24-2023, 12:18 AM

Having read this thread, and having suffered terrible disappointment, I leave the following in honor of Bob

ShottleBop · #17 11-24-2023, 03:45 PM

s gonna

Miss Shelby · #18 11-26-2023, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsavegan

Self-Evident Truths are the only perspective of the Human Condition that the Self can be certain of. They are a product of the mind's ability to think.

The first self-evident truth that the mind is aware of the existence of the Self. The second self-evident truth is that a first cause exists. The third self-evident truth is that any particular Human is connected to all Humans in general.

I disagree.! These self evident truths did not become magically installed in every one by their own minds which are wrought with bias from your experiences,

Self evident truths are bestowed on your heart, or brain if you will, by a much higher power than yourself.