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  #251  
Old 12-21-2012, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Perhaps we are talking about *registered* guns only?

Or perhaps we are talking about a 'gun control' agenda, regardless of the data.
Oh if that was the case I could simply point to the massive instability, wide-spread corruption, huge amount of people living below the breadline, inefficient policing... guns are not the only factor in a large homicide number.

It is just that I happen to know that there are massive concentrations of guns in Brazil, so I am honestly surprised to see it called a low-gun ownership country. Close to 10% of the population live in Favelas, and they are awash with guns - serious stuff in some cases. When the police want to clear an area, they have to send in armored cars because the gangs have access to pretty heavy military hardware.

Large urban areas are still no-go areas for the police, because heavily armed gangs dominate these slums.

I don't see it as an example of a place where gun-regulation is keeping guns away from the general public. I rather see it as a place that has LOTS of guns. And worse: they are not just of the kind designed to kill people, a lot of them are of the kind designed to kill lots of soldiers efficiently.

Maybe it is my perception that is at fault, and maybe the rest of Brazil just does not have a lot of guns in it, and there are only large concentrations of weaponry in the Favelas.

We can say one thing: in there, there are lots of murders, the majority perpetrated with guns. A perfect mix of available firepower and massive poverty makes them one of the most dangerous areas in the world.
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  #252  
Old 12-21-2012, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Perhaps we are talking about *registered* guns only?

Or perhaps we are talking about a 'gun control' agenda, regardless of the data.
Oh if that was the case I could simply point to the massive instability, wide-spread corruption, huge amount of people living below the breadline, inefficient policing... guns are not the only factor in a large homicide number.

It is just that I happen to know that there are massive concentrations of guns in Brazil, so I am honestly surprised to see it called a low-gun ownership country. Close to 10% of the population live in Favelas, and they are awash with guns - serious stuff in some cases. When the police want to clear an area, they have to send in armored cars because the gangs have access to pretty heavy military hardware.

Large urban areas are still no-go areas for the police, because heavily armed gangs dominate these slums.

I don't see it as an example of a place where gun-regulation is keeping guns away from the general public. I rather see it as a place that has LOTS of guns. And worse: they are not just of the kind designed to kill people, a lot of them are of the kind designed to kill lots of soldiers efficiently.

Maybe it is my perception that is at fault, and maybe the rest of Brazil just does not have a lot of guns in it, and there are only large concentrations of weaponry in the Favelas.

We can say one thing: in there, there are lots of murders, the majority perpetrated with guns. A perfect mix of available firepower and massive poverty makes them one of the most dangerous areas in the world.

So are you saying that Favelas and a lot of illegally owned firearms are the justification to remove guns from people who obey the law?
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  #253  
Old 12-21-2012, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

BTW, I do not get the impression that the firearms you are describing are the kind you can pick up at a local sporting goods store.
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  #254  
Old 12-21-2012, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
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Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
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Originally Posted by Vivisectus View Post
Perhaps we are talking about *registered* guns only?

Or perhaps we are talking about a 'gun control' agenda, regardless of the data.
Oh if that was the case I could simply point to the massive instability, wide-spread corruption, huge amount of people living below the breadline, inefficient policing... guns are not the only factor in a large homicide number.

It is just that I happen to know that there are massive concentrations of guns in Brazil, so I am honestly surprised to see it called a low-gun ownership country. Close to 10% of the population live in Favelas, and they are awash with guns - serious stuff in some cases. When the police want to clear an area, they have to send in armored cars because the gangs have access to pretty heavy military hardware.

Large urban areas are still no-go areas for the police, because heavily armed gangs dominate these slums.

I don't see it as an example of a place where gun-regulation is keeping guns away from the general public. I rather see it as a place that has LOTS of guns. And worse: they are not just of the kind designed to kill people, a lot of them are of the kind designed to kill lots of soldiers efficiently.

Maybe it is my perception that is at fault, and maybe the rest of Brazil just does not have a lot of guns in it, and there are only large concentrations of weaponry in the Favelas.

We can say one thing: in there, there are lots of murders, the majority perpetrated with guns. A perfect mix of available firepower and massive poverty makes them one of the most dangerous areas in the world.

So are you saying that Favelas and a lot of illegally owned firearms are the justification to remove guns from people who obey the law?
I cannot fathom how you managed to extract that conclusion from that post.
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  #255  
Old 12-21-2012, 01:31 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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So are you saying that Favelas and a lot of illegally owned firearms are the justification to remove guns from people who obey the law?
That is a pretty obtuse way of arguing, in my opinion. I will assume it is a hasty post that you did not put a lot of thought into.

No, I am not saying that. What I am saying is that there are large concentrations of people in Brazil who have effectively no gun control. We cannot even call those weapons illegally owned: there is no law there to make them illegal. They live in areas where there is a LOT of available firepower, and they have a colossal murder rate, one that makes the average for all of Brazil look puny.

You can say that it is not the huge amount of firepower that causes the murder rate there, but the extreme poverty and lack of policing. I think that would be a fair point to a degree: there are certainly other influences that heavily contribute. However, that means we must also compare the US to countries with a decent level of affluence, infrastructure and effective policing, as those circumstances do not exist in the US, to my knowledge.

When you do so, the US stands out like a sore thumb.

You then conflate this with the argument that there is no problem with people who obey the law owning guns. But this is like saying that no Christians commit murder, because murder is not a Christian act. We have no way of knowing beforehand who the true Christians are, so this is a useless statement. It is in fact a sort of No True Scotsman argument: anyone who uses a gun irresponsibly is automatically moved the the other category, and you can continue to argue that it is fine for people in the category "Responsible Gun Owners" to own firearms.

But we do not have a clearly defined group of people called "Irresponsible Gun Owners" that we can recognize beforehand and not give guns to. What we have is citizens, a number of which commit crimes on occasion. This ranges from people who commit a single, small crime in an inexplicable departure from their normal behavior to serious career criminals.

If you have a lot of firepower readily available, then it is easier to do a lot more damage when you do decide to commit a crime. Especially if the weapon in question is light and easy to conceal, like a handgun. Or has a high rate of fire, heavy caliber, and large ammo capacity, like assault rifles.
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  #256  
Old 12-21-2012, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
BTW, I do not get the impression that the firearms you are describing are the kind you can pick up at a local sporting goods store.
Most of them are, actually. On top of that there is some heavier stuff, like light machine guns and RPG's, but for the most part the kind you can buy in a sporting goods store are easier to get, and therefor more prevalent.
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  #257  
Old 12-21-2012, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

This just doesn't seem like the same place you were describing?

Favela Tours in Rio de Janeiro - Brazilmax.com
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  #258  
Old 12-21-2012, 06:27 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

People confuse me. Being the sole survivor of a massacre of your little classmates is a demonstration of "grace"? WTF?
Quote:
“Mommy, I’m okay, but all my friends are dead,” the little girl said, according to Solomon.

The girl was the only survivor in a class of 16 people, according to ABC News.

“Somehow, in that moment, by God’s grace, (she) was able to act as if she was already deceased,” Solomon said.
Read more: 'Mommy, I'm okay, but all my friends are dead': Pastor recounts horror of 6-year-old girl who survived by playing dead as Sandy Hook shooter Adam Lanza massacred her classmates: report (VIDEO) - NY Daily News
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  #259  
Old 12-21-2012, 08:01 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

I read grace as luck, but that's me. I'm not religious.

I do feel a lot better about leaving my child at school with aides and teacher knowing that they'll try to keep them safe. A couple of the kids were special needs (autistic) according to the parents and two of the other victims were behaviorist specialists, who died trying to shield the children.
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  #260  
Old 12-21-2012, 08:59 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

I don't envy anyone who has to live with what happened in Newtown or how they have to explain it to themselves or their children why some lived and some died. I don't think I could wish that on someone I didn't like. It may not be how I'd explain it and it may defy any kind of logic I could conjure up but I don't feel like I can judge them in this case.
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  #261  
Old 12-21-2012, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
This just doesn't seem like the same place you were describing?

Favela Tours in Rio de Janeiro - Brazilmax.com
I see I was mistaken: it was not an oversight. You are just being an ignorant jerk.

Ahead of the 2016 Olympics in Rio, they are deploying 1600 police and military at a time to clear the heavily armed gangs out. These stay on the ground for weeks, to make sure they don't come right back. They then need to establish hundreds of locally trained officers to keep control of that area. It is called the Pacification of the Favelas, an effort for the government to regain control.

It looks like progress is being made, but it is hard to tell how much of it is Brazilian government spin. The pacification community policing scheme seems to be paying off in some pretty large areas, but there is also a lot of social unrest as forced evictions tear up the little communities. Apparently they simply decide some areas are health hazards, or are in danger of a landslide, and then just bulldoze the lot to make room for some development. However, the pacified areas seem to be getting some real socio-economic benefit. This isvery much something that started in the last few years, however.

But hey! there are slum-tours, so really the place wasn't that bad, and you can just ignore the rest of the argument too.
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  #262  
Old 12-21-2012, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

Deep down we all know what the problem is. Deep down we know who is to blame for this tragedy. For those who don't this explains it really well

Quote:
There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers. The principal, Dawn Hochsprung, seemed to have performed bravely. According to reports, she activated the school’s public-address system and also lunged at Lanza, before he shot her to death. Some of the teachers managed to save all or some of their charges by rushing them into closets or bathrooms. But in general, a feminized setting is a setting in which helpless passivity is the norm. Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel. Think of what Sandy Hook might have been like if a couple of male teachers who had played high-school football, or even some of the huskier 12-year-old boys, had converged on Lanza.
Stop feminizing all the things! Damn! Wake up, sheeple!
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  #263  
Old 12-21-2012, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Deep down we all know what the problem is. Deep down we know who is to blame for this tragedy. For those who don't this explains it really well
ahem

:glare:
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  #264  
Old 12-21-2012, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by Stormlight View Post
Deep down we all know what the problem is. Deep down we know who is to blame for this tragedy. For those who don't this explains it really well
:appl:
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  #265  
Old 12-21-2012, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by BrotherMan View Post
I don't envy anyone who has to live with what happened in Newtown or how they have to explain it to themselves or their children why some lived and some died. I don't think I could wish that on someone I didn't like. It may not be how I'd explain it and it may defy any kind of logic I could conjure up but I don't feel like I can judge them in this case.
I hear you, borter. But I think it's more a boggle about the general mindset or zeitgeist or what have you, that encourages that sort of tone-deaf appeal to the will of God rather than just straight-up saying: "She was so lucky. She tried something that probably others tried too, and it just happened to work for her. We're so relieved it worked for her, and devastated at the senseless deaths of the other kids."
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  #266  
Old 12-21-2012, 02:16 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
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Originally Posted by Stormlight View Post
Deep down we all know what the problem is. Deep down we know who is to blame for this tragedy. For those who don't this explains it really well
ahem

:glare:
I don't read your posts because I don't want to encourage your privileges.
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  #267  
Old 12-21-2012, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

It was a pastor said that, and it just confuses me. I am not judging necessarily.
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  #268  
Old 12-21-2012, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

Clearly, the answer is moar firearms. Clearly.
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  #269  
Old 12-21-2012, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

This b'ak'tun has been awful to the very last day.
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  #270  
Old 12-21-2012, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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  #271  
Old 12-21-2012, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

Columbine High School Had Armed Guards During Massacre In 1999
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  #272  
Old 12-21-2012, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Just returning to a theme referenced earlier, I don't even
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There was not a single adult male on the school premises when the shooting occurred. In this school of 450 students, a sizeable number of whom were undoubtedly 11- and 12-year-old boys (it was a K–6 school), all the personnel — the teachers, the principal, the assistant principal, the school psychologist, the “reading specialist” — were female. There didn’t even seem to be a male janitor to heave his bucket at Adam Lanza’s knees. Women and small children are sitting ducks for mass-murderers.
:gah:
Quote:
Male aggression can be a good thing, as in protecting the weak — but it has been forced out of the culture of elementary schools and the education schools that train their personnel.
Yeah! Male aggression was a thing missing from this elementary school massacre.

God, women, why did you shoot all those kids with your equal pay and birth control? I bet you sluts feel super guilty now, because it is your fault, like most things.
If Jonah Fucking Goldberg calls your viewpoint "perverse," you know you've gone completely off the goddamn rails. What does a good wingnut do under those circumstances?

Double down, of course.
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  #273  
Old 12-21-2012, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

What a gigantic load of shit. Women have been the majority of teachers for almost ever and now it's a problem? I dare say the fetishization of what makes a man manly is more to blame.
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  #274  
Old 12-21-2012, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

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Columbine High School Had Armed Guards During Massacre In 1999
Well, if that is the case, there is obviously only one solution. Arm the teachers. And the kids. Teach them all basic gun-skills. At least one in ten will have to learn basic battlefield medicine and carry some plasma, pressure-bandages and morphine at all times. We will put them through regular drills until they can learn to drop their desks, take cover and return accurate fire without having to think about it. Also, every three months or so, we randomly toss some flashbangs into the classroom so they can get used to following their training even in unexpected and disorienting situations. Maybe we can have some of them drop to the floor and start screaming and spurting fake blood all over the place to simulate the casualties so they can learn to get them behind cover.

OR, or or... we build those little turrets on the corners of school grounds. With a man with a gun in it. Imagine how safe those kids will feel, playing tag under the shadow of a prison-style gun tower!
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:59 PM
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Vivisectus Vivisectus is offline
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Default Re: Another Mass Shooting

What pisses me off is that apparently, one of those teachers shoved all her kids out of harms way and then stayed in the classroom herself just in case she could stop the snotnosed little arsewipe from getting in to them, getting killed in the process, but actually saving those kids... pretty heroic behavior. I can only hope I would have the presence of mind and courage to do the same in such a situation, but I am not at all sure that I would.

But no, if only there had been a brave man around to protect her!
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