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  #1  
Old 04-02-2012, 01:23 AM
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Default Just world fallacies and victim blaming

I have TWO articles up in my browser about this stuff now, some of which could go into five or six different threads, but I want to put them here.

This is a decent meta-takedown on the sorts of takeaways people were getting from that Girls Around Me app posted about in some other threads:

Creating Victims And Then Blaming Them | TechCrunch

This one makes a pretty convincing argument that this is something bubbling up into the zeitgeist right now, and that for whatever reason, more and more people are calling this sort of thing out:

How Right-Wing Bullies Blame and Attack the Victims of Violence and Oppression | | AlterNet

OK, now you are allowed to discuss.
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:02 AM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

We know you hate personal responsibility,thank you for the remind

"omg i'm 728 pounds ( 728-Pound Susanne Eman Wants To Be The World’s Fattest Woman [VIDEO]) it is all society faults,when i'll get sick I'm going to get free healthcare from you suckers"

"ehy i'm an high school drop-out!!! society own me a future!!"

"ehy yesterday night i was running naked near the most dangerous quarter and I got raped ...seriously i'd never expect this!!..i want a FREE ABORTION and free psycological help for my entire life"
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Old 04-02-2012, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

There is a very serious problem inherent in nearly anything related to this, which is that humans are, as noted, prone to just-world fallacies, and also to failing to distinguish between cause/effect and fault.

Many things you can do alter the likelihood of various outcomes. This doesn't mean that you are at fault if you do not do these things, but it does mean that telling you about them, if you don't know, might be useful.

I mean, "wearing a hoodie" is pretty damn ridiculous as an explanation, because that's not an intrinsically crazy thing to do.

For an interesting spin, consider paying "protection" money to the local mob. Most people would not consider it reasonable to blame someone for failing to do this, even if failing to do it leads to the local mob doing them harm. But on the other hand, consider failing to dress in baggy clothes near a rapist... A lot of people will somehow conclude that the victim "should" have done that.

On the other hand: All else being equal, if you knew that one course of action had a 30% chance of resulting in your tragic death, and another 5%, which would you choose?

So we have this vocabulary problem, on top of a tendency to assume that people are totally unaware of the risks they're taking, or to assume that, since they could mitigate those risks, they have a duty to. (This is deeply ingrained in some aspects of our law; try to collect on insurance if you don't lock your doors.)
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:01 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinWhinyPlagarian View Post
"ehy yesterday night i was running naked near the most dangerous quarter and I got raped ...seriously i'd never expect this!!..i want a FREE ABORTION and free psycological help for my entire life"
So how is your mother doing after all she's been through?
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

I'm not sure if this fits in this thread exactly, but what do you call it when the FBI arrests someone they have nurtured and created, for being their patsy?
The example I was thinking of is the local case of Mohamed Osman Mohamud. Here's a teenager, who expresses interest in Jihad. However, he has no money, no means of employment, and no training. What does the FBI do? He's planning on going to Alaska to work, and the FBI puts him on the no-fly list. Then they plant an agent to befriend him, and spend a lot of time talking about Jihad. Mohamed has no money, so the agent pays for his apartment. Mohamed has no plan, so the agent creates a plan: blow up the Christmas tree lighting ceremony in downtown Portland. Mohamed has no training in explosives; but that's okay because the agent will build the "bomb" for him. Mohamed has no contacts or means of getting the materials for the bomb, but that's okay, because the agent will acquire those materials for him. Mohamed doesn't have the means to rent a van to transport the explosives to downtown Portland, but that's okay because the agent will rent the van. Oh, also, many conversations have been taped, except there's that one part where Mohamed initially chooses to blow up everybody and says yeah, this is what is best. That part of the tape you can't make out the words. But the agent says that's what the guy who he has been financially supporting, who has been bouncing his Jihad ideas off of for six months, who has made every aspect of this thing possible- that's what he says happened, with this 19-year-old.

So- if this 19-year old (at the time) is a would-be mass murderer, what do you call the people who helped him get there, exactly?

To me, this is creating a victim and then blaming that victim, writ large. What do you want to bet you couldn't find thousands of 19-year old angry teens and in six months convince them to take out their anger in a murderous way? Seriously.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:46 AM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

And the thing that makes AML's post particularly pathetic is that, well... Why do we tolerate a state of affairs in which such dangers are regarded as though they were natural phenomena? It's not as though rapists are a kind of meteorology.
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  #7  
Old 04-02-2012, 04:42 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

because rape is a part of nature,rape exists even in the animal kingdom

If you knew anything about darwinism you'd know that male have a biological urge to pass down their genes to the next generation

some male can't find a partner so they go with prostitutes because they rationally prefer spend 50$ than facing the risk to go prison

some male instead ,rationally prefers ,facing the risk to get jailed because they value more 50$

At least in a free market rape is keep to the minimum because you have more than enough women willing to sell their bodies

In a socialist country where feminists rule and such thing like prostitution\pornography etc are outlawed or where no woman is willing to play as cheap "cumdumper" for men because the Welfare State takes care of them or because they are well of enough ...well you can expect only a increase of rape stories because not many man could afford 500€ for an handjob and 2000€ for a full service

it is the classic econ 101 textbook example of a well-meaning policy(woman should be treated like people and not like sexual objects) that actually do more harm than good
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Rape isn't just about sex, though. Men don't necessarily rape because they're trying to sow their seed...
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Who pays for your food, AML?
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  #10  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

You really don't know the first thing about 'socialism'[fill in the blank], do you?

Prostitution is perfectly legal (and taxed) here. Doesn't stop any rapes from happening though.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

It's amazing. It's like a device for being wrong. I propose that we put AML in a science lab. Scientists will discuss questions to which the answer is not yet known, and start with the assumption that whatever AML says is not merely wrong, but offensively stupid, and go from there. It will accelerate human scientific progress by years.

It is particularly funny coming from someone who claims to be a "libertarian". Consider two claims generally advanced by libertarians:

1. People should always be held fully accountable for their own actions.
2. One of the few legitimate purposes of government is taking action to prevent the use of force.

In short, an actual libertarian should see rapists as fully responsible volitional actors whose behavior cannot be justified or excused by circumstances, and whom the state should be dealing with forcefully and effectively. But not AML! No, AML somehow thinks that the poor sad rapists are victims of society, not accountable for the choices they've made.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
because rape is a part of nature,rape exists even in the animal kingdom

If you knew anything about darwinism you'd know that male have a biological urge to pass down their genes to the next generation

some male can't find a partner so they go with prostitutes because they rationally prefer spend 50$ than facing the risk to go prison

some male instead ,rationally prefers ,facing the risk to get jailed because they value more 50$

At least in a free market rape is keep to the minimum because you have more than enough women willing to sell their bodies

In a socialist country where feminists rule and such thing like prostitutionpornography etc are outlawed or where no woman is willing to play as cheap "cumdumper" for men because the Welfare State takes care of them or because they are well of enough ...well you can expect only a increase of rape stories because not many man could afford 500€ for an handjob and 2000€ for a full service

it is the classic econ 101 textbook example of a well-meaning policy(woman should be treated like people and not like sexual objects) that actually do more harm than good
Are we sure that AML isn't a troll?
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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In short, an actual libertarian should see rapists as fully responsible volitional actors whose behavior cannot be justified or excused by circumstances, and whom the state should be dealing with forcefully and effectively.

True, but AML is/trolls as an anarchocapitalist. He despises all government, except, of course, the really big imperialist governments that colonized Africa. Cuz, you know, coloreds.
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  #14  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:21 PM
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lisarea lisarea is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
There is a very serious problem inherent in nearly anything related to this, which is that humans are, as noted, prone to just-world fallacies, and also to failing to distinguish between cause/effect and fault.

Many things you can do alter the likelihood of various outcomes. This doesn't mean that you are at fault if you do not do these things, but it does mean that telling you about them, if you don't know, might be useful.
Yeah, that is a discrete but often related issue. As you point out, the 'just world' philosophy depends on treating cruel and criminal behavior as natural phenomenon, so dressing to avoid rape or murder is like dressing for the weather or something. It's kind of an ironic just world in which murderers and rapists and such are an integral part of the landscape.

Thing is, people who are disproportionately victims of certain types of crime are generally pretty familiar with risk mitigation strategies, and know a lot more about it than the people who are often giving the advice. That's what makes it so maddening for some dumb cop to inform women that, to avoid rape, they should dress differently. That, and the fact that his advice wasn't even accurate. "Slutty" clothing hasn't been shown to correlate to rape.

So it's generally silly at best to offer risk mitigation advice to people who are the ones mitigating the risk. Trust me that by the time a girl is about ten or so, she probably knows a lot more about this stuff than the average man. So advice like that doesn't mitigate the risk, but the blame.

I'm sure that black people are similarly aware of risk mitigation strategies for avoiding profiling and hate crimes, too. In fact, one day when I was working for a small tech company in Boulder, I went to lunch with all of the black people in my company. Boulder is a "liberal," predominantly white city, and it was in an area of town that was mostly businesses, so in the middle of the day, the vast majority of traffic is people going to lunch like us, mostly with no interference. But the other guys in the car started talking about the cops and de facto 'roadblocks' and stuff in the area that I'd never encountered at all and didn't know existed. Because they all got pulled over all the time. They had detailed mitigation strategies just to get to work and back home again. I'd hardly given that sort of thing a thought at all.

And to be clear, Geraldo didn't just offer the hoodie thing as well meaning advice. He said the hoodie (and thus, the guy wearing it) was at least as responsible as Zimmerman.

The point of the Alternet article, though, is that just recently, these victim blaming excuses have been being shot down, and more people are refusing the fallacy designed to distance themselves from victims of injustices. Things like Slutwalk, the hoodie protests, and the 99% are all explicitly rejecting victim blaming and identifying with, rather than distancing from, victims.

And that's a huge step in the right direction. I think someone here mentioned this, but Kurt Vonnegut wrote about the tendency for self-loathing among poor people in America in Slaughterhouse Five:

http://open.salon.com/blog/fitzador/...ate_themselves

That book was published in 1969, but if you search on that quote, you'll find a sudden resurgence of cites, because for whatever reason, people are talking about that now. (Not enough to show up on Google Trends, but I've seen a bunch of people citing that recently, so it does seem to be going around.)
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  #15  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:22 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
1. People should always be held fully accountable for their own actions.
2. One of the few legitimate purposes of government is taking action to prevent the use of force.

In short, an actual libertarian should see rapists as fully responsible volitional actors whose behavior cannot be justified or excused by circumstances, and whom the state should be dealing with forcefully and effectively. But not AML! No, AML somehow thinks that the poor sad rapists are victims of society, not accountable for the choices they've made.
no the rapist should be throw to some jail without food and water because he is full responsable of his actions no matter the circumstances....

suppose Mr Nowork is starving to death because Mr Nowork can't afford food....Should Mr Nowork being excused if He choices to steal some food?? no,he should serve the full sentence because a thief is a thief no matter the circumstances

but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
no the rapist should be throw to some jail without food and water because he is full responsable of his actions no matter the circumstances....

suppose Mr Nowork is starving to death because Mr Nowork can't afford food....Should Mr Nowork being excused if He choices to steal some food?? no,he should serve the full sentence because a thief is a thief no matter the circumstances

but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role
Everyone goes to jail in libertopia! :w00t:
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:30 PM
AynMisesLibertarian AynMisesLibertarian is offline
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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True, but AML is/trolls as an anarchocapitalist. He despises all government, except, of course, the really big imperialist governments that colonized Africa. Cuz, you know, coloreds.
actually the standard of living increased in the colonized countries

read Niall Ferguson:

"The moral simplification urge is an extraordinarily powerful one, especially in this country, where imperial guilt can lead to self-flagellation," he told a reporter. "And it leads to very simplistic judgments. The rulers of western Africa prior to the European empires were not running some kind of scout camp. They were engaged in the slave trade. They showed zero sign of developing the country's economic resources. Did Senegal ultimately benefit from French rule? Yes, it's clear. And the counterfactual idea that somehow the indigenous rulers would have been more successful in economic development doesn't have any credibility at all"

I'm a pacifist and against imperialism,but say "ooooh Africa is poor because we exploited them " is retard

they are poor because black people tend to have a socialist culture and they don't understand individualism
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role
Damn! I'd better rethink what I wear to work every day. :kissass:
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
no the rapist should be throw to some jail without food and water because he is full responsable of his actions no matter the circumstances....
So government should place its jackboot on the throat of the individual for simply acting on a biological imperative? Damn, this is dumbest incarnation of lolbertarianism ever. :sadcheer:

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a thief is a thief no matter the circumstances
The Internet is a mirror!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role
:laugh:

Got anything beyond the "it is obvious" pontification to back that up, or are you just talking out of your doughy, lily-white tuchis?

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I'm a pacifist and against imperialism
You're a liar. :wave:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
their are poor because black people tend to have a socialist culture and they don't understand individualism
In your early days here you told us that black people are poor because of their genetic inferiority. True, that was more than a little hackneyed, but it was also far more inflammatory than the above silly-assed bullshit.

Maybe you can combine the two positions by saying that black people tend to be socialist and lack understanding of individualism because they're genetically inferior and thus too stupid to comprehend and embrace laissez-faire capitalism.
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  #20  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
their are poor because black people tend to have a socialist culture and they don't understand individualism
In your early days here you told us that black people are poor because of their genetic inferiority. True, that was more than a little hackneyed, but it was also far more inflammatory than the above silly-assed bullshit.
Oh, those days are not too far past. He is just realizing he needs to hide his overt racism here. His post originally read:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
their are poor because black people tend to have a socialist culture and they have lower than average IQ's
But that was before his edit.
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  #21  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

:lolstossel:
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post

True, but AML is/trolls as an anarchocapitalist. He despises all government, except, of course, the really big imperialist governments that colonized Africa. Cuz, you know, coloreds.
actually the standard of living increased in the colonized countries
You mean like the Belgian King's colonial help in the Congo Free State?

Quote:
Failure to meet the rubber collection quotas was punishable by death. Meanwhile, the Force Publique were required to provide a hand of their victims as proof when they had shot and killed someone, as it was believed that they would otherwise use the munitions (imported from Europe at considerable cost) for hunting food. As a consequence, the rubber quotas were in part paid off in chopped-off hands. Sometimes the hands were collected by the soldiers of the Force Publique, sometimes by the villages themselves. There were even small wars where villages attacked neighbouring villages to gather hands, since their rubber quotas were too unrealistic to fill.
Death toll estimates range from 5 million to 10 million. Thanks, colonialism!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
read Niall Ferguson:
Ferguson points to Senegal as having benefited from French rule. Well he should, since he wouldn't want to point to French colonial administration generally:
Quote:
Until after the Second World War almost all the Africans living in the colonies of France were not citizens of France. Rather they were "French Subjects", lacking rights before the law, property ownership rights, rights to travel, dissent, or vote. The exception were the Four Communes of Senegal: those areas had been towns of the tiny Senegal Colony in 1848 when, at the abolition of slavery by the French Second Republic, all residents of France were granted equal political rights.
Senegal was the exception, not the rule. And then of course there was the issue of what it took for Africans to thrive there: assimilation, dependency, and rejection of their own culture.
Quote:
Nigeria was to British Indirect Rule what Senegal was to French Direct Rule. “The principles of colonial administration already established in Senegal where adhered to, and were extended to the new French West African colonies,” says John Gunther. French Direct rule produced a class of “assimilés” who saw Africa’s destiny only in France’s hands. Houphouet Boighny for example, opposed independence for the Ivory Coast on grounds that it still needed more guidance from France.

The “assimilés” in French Africa represented the group Frantz Fanon calls the “benis oui oui” or the “yes yes men.” Through Assimilation, France transformed it[s] African colonies into complete dependencies that relied on France for survival. Many elites in French Africa looked up to Paris as “home.” This was because to become “assimilé,” one had to show signs of being “civilized.” This implied being able to speak French, eating French food, dressing French, being Christian, being literate and abandoning “primitive African cultures.”.
Ferguson can make a point that some colonialism and some empire building has resulted in some advances for some civilizations; though Ferguson tends to focus on the end positive results and dismiss or ignore the vast history of brutal despotic rule, mass murder, and has a painfully anglicized view of bringing "enlightened white rule to the savages," because look! GDP is up!

Ferguson should avoid his intersection of empire apologia and economics, since he has mostly had his ass handed to him.
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2012, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leesifer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AynMisesLibertarian View Post
but the woman who got raped because she had her bare ass exposed is responsable as well ,because it is obvious that clothes play some role
Damn! I'd better rethink what I wear to work every day. :kissass:
Work? Oh, pleez. Who are you fooling, Ms. Nowork feminist socialist?
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Last edited by Sauron; 04-02-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Death toll estimates range from 5 million to 10 million. Thanks, colonialism!
So why did these African inhabitants of a completely unregulated market not vote with their feet and/or wallets like people are supposed to do in Libertopia? If they were not happy with what their labour could buy them, then why did they not find better buyers? Why did no balance emerge naturally through the resulting scarcity of labour that hit the golden mean between worker requirements and the needs of their Entrepreneurial Atlassian Benefactors?

Oh yes! Because the company-men who got complete free reign in there quite literally sent men to cut off the hands and/or feet of people who did not meet their quota.
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  #25  
Old 04-02-2012, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Just world fallacies and victim blaming

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Are we sure that AML isn't a troll?
What he says works if it comes from a lolbertarian retard. It also works as a satirical stereotype of a lolbertarian retard. Personally I think if he did not exist, we would have to invent him.
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