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  #51  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
And for the record: I'd rather be on Putin's side than on Killary's. At least he fights AGAINST al-Qaeda and ISIS instead of supporting them.
We already knew that, I put him on your side.

:tmtongue:
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  #52  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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And for the record: I'd rather be on Putin's side than on Killary's.
That's been obvious. That's why you're defending Russia against claims of hacking despite there being substantial evidence of such. Because on one side is the US, and the other is Russia, therefore the Russian government must be innocent of the charges Americans make against them.

And Putin murders journalists, and crushes Chechens, and allows his subordinates to run torture and murder camps for LGBT people, and annexes parts of other countries, and foments rebellion in other countries where they shoot down passenger planes, supports and funds white nationalist groups across Europe and the US... If the US is weakened, and Russia is one of the countries stepping into that power vacuum, what makes you so fucking sure it'll be an improvement?

Your confidence that it'll be a clear improvement is nothing but the inverse of American exceptionalism, which is just as stupid as its counterpart.

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  #53  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Itís pretty rich Ö ever since the end of World War II, when Harry Truman invented the National Security State, the U.S. has done nothing but intervene in the elections and internal politics of other nations Ö shall I make a list? Really? Iran? Iraq? Chile? Guatemala? Vietnam? And on and on and on Ö Not just meddling, of course, but also fomenting coups or staging outright military interventions.

Letís see now, how many wars have the Russkies fought since World War II? Well, there was that debacle in Afghanistan, of course, and the suppressions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland Ö plus the proxy war in Ukraine Ö

What about our new bogey, China? They had a bit of a skirmish with India in the early 60s, and a brief war with Vietnam in the late 70s (so much for the domino theory, eh?) Not much else that I can recall.

What about U.S. wars? Not even counting all the elections we hacked and manipulated, or the coups we fomented, we have these shooting wars big and small: Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Kuwait, the Balkans bombings, Afghanistan, Iraq, our interventions in Syria and Libya, our new venture in North Africa Ö Iím sure Iíve missed some.

But ó oh noes! :ohnoes: Someone had the temerity to meddle in our elections! How dare they do that? Only we have the right to do that! This foreign meddling in our bogus elections, which are bought and paid for by the one percent, makes Baby Jebus cry! :cry:

Oh, yes, thatís the reason Hillary lost Ö because Russian trolls put up a bunch of fake news on Facebook Ö not because she was a shitty candidate with a history of warmongering Ö oh no, it couldnít be that Ö it was Russian hacking, of course, and the fact that Watser? and I said mean things about Hillary! :pat: And that Watser? did not vote for Hillary even though as I understand it he lives in the Netherlands and could not have voted for her in any case Ö Still, itís his fault, and mine, for refusing to drink the Killary Kool-Ade. Got it!
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  #54  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Of course I knew I forgot stuff in the above list ... like the Nicaragua escapade under the senile Ronnie Reagan in the 1980s and the lovely Iran-Contra scandal... not to mention the covert attempts to kill Castro in the early 60s so that Cuba could be brought back under the boot heel of the Mob and predatory America capitalism ...

But -- oh look! -- the Russians hacked our election!

:lol:
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  #55  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:04 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Also never mind that the capital of the US is Tel Aviv, butbutbut(thurt) the Russians!
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Oh, and I also forgot the U.S.-led sanctions imposed on Palestine after a 2006 legislative election produced results that the U.S. did not like!

You see, according to the U.S., every nation has the right to self-determination, provided that they self-determine what the U.S. determines what they ought to do!

Oh Ö but the Russians hacked our election. O, woe is us! :ohnoes:
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  #57  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
It’s pretty rich … ever since the end of World War II, when Harry Truman invented the National Security State, the U.S. has done nothing but intervene in the elections and internal politics of other nations … shall I make a list? Really? Iran? Iraq? Chile? Guatemala? Vietnam? And on and on and on … Not just meddling, of course, but also fomenting coups or staging outright military interventions.

Let’s see now, how many wars have the Russkies fought since World War II? Well, there was that debacle in Afghanistan, of course, and the suppressions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland … plus the proxy war in Ukraine …

What about our new bogey, China? They had a bit of a skirmish with India in the early 60s, and a brief war with Vietnam in the late 70s (so much for the domino theory, eh?) Not much else that I can recall.

What about U.S. wars? Not even counting all the elections we hacked and manipulated, or the coups we fomented, we have these shooting wars big and small: Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, Kuwait, the Balkans bombings, Afghanistan, Iraq, our interventions in Syria and Libya, our new venture in North Africa … I’m sure I’ve missed some.

But — oh noes! :ohnoes: Someone had the temerity to meddle in our elections! How dare they do that? Only we have the right to do that! This foreign meddling in our bogus elections, which are bought and paid for by the one percent, makes Baby Jebus cry! :cry:

Oh, yes, that’s the reason Hillary lost … because Russian trolls put up a bunch of fake news on Facebook … not because she was a shitty candidate with a history of warmongering … oh no, it couldn’t be that … it was Russian hacking, of course, and the fact that Watser? and I said mean things about Hillary! :pat: And that Watser? did not vote for Hillary even though as I understand it he lives in the Netherlands and could not have voted for her in any case … Still, it’s his fault, and mine, for refusing to drink the Killary Kool-Ade. Got it!
Holy non seqitur/ tu quoque, Davidm where is our Davidm of years past who liked good arguments and knew logical fallacies?

I’m not for American intervention in democratic elections and the number of wars fought by the respective parties doesn’t matter.

In fact, it seems your shitpost is almost entirely irrelevant.

Are you having a stroke, do you smell purple and just mutter random political bullshit?

Pro tip, Davieboy, intervening in other people’s Democratic ellections is fucking wrong. It was wrong when we did it and it is wrong when someone dies it to us. I know you clearly find this confusing.

Also, I’m generally anti war, but I don’t think that a historical war count of the last 60 years is somehow important to this conversation.

Russia interfered with the US elections, that was a factor in a very close race. You can make fun of it and talk about all the wars the US has waged but it’s fucking irrelevant. :tmgrin:
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  #58  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Please spare me your insipid sanctimony. No nation that has done so many wrongs to other nations -- including the Native American nation and the nations of Africa, whose people it systematically enslaved -- has any call to whine about someone else "hacking" its precious election -- an election that in any case is bought and paid for by the one percent. That is why we no longer have a labor party in the U.S. and why no politician any longer addresses the plight of the poor. We are a plutocracy and an oligarchy committed to to the interests of the wealthy.
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  #59  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Also, the idea that Killary lost the election because of Russian "hacking" is completely without empirical support. Even if it were true, blowback is a bitch.
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  #60  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Please spare me your insipid sanctimony. No nation that has done so many wrongs to other nations -- including the Native American nation and the nations of Africa, whose people it systematically enslaved -- has any call to whine about someone else "hacking" its precious election -- an election that in any case is bought and paid for by the one percent. That is why we no longer have a labor party in the U.S. and why no politician any longer addresses the plight of the poor. We are a plutocracy and an oligarchy committed to to the interests of the wealthy.

Pro tip, Davieboy, intervening in other people’s Democratic elections is fucking wrong. It was wrong when we did it and it is wrong when someone does it to us. I know you clearly find this confusing.
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  #61  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Also never mind that the capital of the US is Tel Aviv, butbutbut(thurt) the Russians!
I canít imagine why anyone would call you an ideologue who is long on hyperbole and short on facts.


Is like all of the US ran by Israel? Just the government or certain industries as well? Which ones if so?
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  #62  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Please spare me your insipid sanctimony. No nation that has done so many wrongs to other nations -- including the Native American nation and the nations of Africa, whose people it systematically enslaved -- has any call to whine about someone else "hacking" its precious election -- an election that in any case is bought and paid for by the one percent. That is why we no longer have a labor party in the U.S. and why no politician any longer addresses the plight of the poor. We are a plutocracy and an oligarchy committed to to the interests of the wealthy.

Pro tip, Davieboy, intervening in other peopleís Democratic elections is fucking wrong. It was wrong when we did it and it is wrong when someone does it to us. I know you clearly find this confusing.
:shiftier:

I, of course, have not run a tu quoque fallacy. I haven't said, "why are you complaining about Russian interference in the U.S. election, because we do it too?" It's perfectly fine to complain about Russian interference, though there is no empirical evidence that it swayed the election. It is massively hypocritical to complain about others doing what we do all the time. But pointing that out is not tu quoque. What I am suggesting is that people who complain about Russian interference in the election should acknowledge our own interference in the elections and internal politics of others, up to and including the use of violence; maybe if they did that, then their crocodile tears would be taken a bit more seriously.
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  #63  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by beyelzu View Post
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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Please spare me your insipid sanctimony. No nation that has done so many wrongs to other nations -- including the Native American nation and the nations of Africa, whose people it systematically enslaved -- has any call to whine about someone else "hacking" its precious election -- an election that in any case is bought and paid for by the one percent. That is why we no longer have a labor party in the U.S. and why no politician any longer addresses the plight of the poor. We are a plutocracy and an oligarchy committed to to the interests of the wealthy.

Pro tip, Davieboy, intervening in other peopleís Democratic elections is fucking wrong. It was wrong when we did it and it is wrong when someone does it to us. I know you clearly find this confusing.
:shiftier:

I, of course, have not run a tu quoque fallacy. I haven't said, "why are you complaining about Russian interference in the U.S. election, because we do it too?" It's perfectly fine to complain about Russian interference, though there is no empirical evidence that it swayed the election. It is massively hypocritical to complain about others doing what we do all the time. But pointing that out is not tu quoque. What I am suggesting is that people who complain about Russian interference in the election should acknowledge our own interference in the elections and internal politics of others, up to and including the use of violence; maybe if they did that, then their crocodile tears would be taken a bit more seriously.
So before I can complain about Russia fucking around with our elections I need to acknowledge our actions that were wrong.


Guess what, I fucking have, more than once. You just werenít sitting next to me when I did so.


Or do I need to ask for absolution any time I talk about Russiaís election interference?

But you arenít tu quoqueing

:tmgrin:

Thatís fucking rich.

You are just a pistol, DavieBoy
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  #64  
Old 12-08-2017, 11:54 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Also never mind that the capital of the US is Tel Aviv, butbutbut(thurt) the Russians!
I canít imagine why anyone would call you an ideologue who is long on hyperbole and short on facts.


Is like all of the US ran by Israel? Just the government or certain industries as well? Which ones if so?
Hollywood and the banks. Duh.
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  #65  
Old 12-09-2017, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Uh huh. Yet: the Russian hackers who stole the election, so much more reasonableness, da?

Elephant. Room.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

And of course the Saudi influence on either party is way bigger than anything the Russians can muster.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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It’s pretty rich … ever since the end of World War II, when Harry Truman invented the National Security State, the U.S. has done nothing but intervene in the elections and internal politics of other nations … shall I make a list?
I was talking about Putin, not America and Russia in general.

Putin's regime is very different from that of Stalin's or Khrushchev's. Stalin was a monster, but he did mostly limit his murder to areas within the USSR. But if we are comparing the post-WW2 US and Russia, I would think that killing millions of Ukrainians should probably enter into the fucking equation.

But anyway, the relevant comparison is Putin vs. Obama/Clinton.
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But — oh noes! :ohnoes: Someone had the temerity to meddle in our elections! How dare they do that? Only we have the right to do that!
Bey has already explained how this is a fallacious argument.

I don't consider the overthrow of Mossadegh, or funding the Contras, or supporting Pinochet's coup to be good things.

I will note, however, that given that the US is the most powerful military in the world, has the world's reserve currency, and so forth, installing a narcissistic sociopathic moron in the White House has consequences far beyond the US. Overthrowing the government of Grenada, for example, was undoubtedly a bad thing the US did, but helping Trump get elected affects literally billions of people, and Grenada affects less than a million. Making the US an even more malign actor in the world is irrelevant to you, because the US has done bad things? This is pretty shitty reasoning. Perhaps if the consequences would be limited to just the US, or just those who supported those actions, you'd have a point. As it is, it's basically just an endorsement of collective punishment and spite (given that the punishment won't even be limited to Americans - after all this thread was about how Trump is doing bad stuff in Israel, yes?).
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Oh, yes, that’s the reason Hillary lost … because Russian trolls put up a bunch of fake news on Facebook … not because she was a shitty candidate with a history of warmongering … oh no, it couldn’t be that … it was Russian hacking, of course
Hacking the DNC and Podesta generated thousands of stories in the media, not just Russian social media propaganda. Clinton lost by 0.8% or less across three states, it only needed to have switched 0.5% of voters from Clinton to Trump, or 1% from Clinton to third-party/third-party to Trump, or some combination thereof. The notion that this is ludicrously implausible... is in itself ludicrous.

But it's not surprising coming from an innumerate who thinks that you couldn't possibly get 500 votes for Gore out of 97,000 Nader votes in Florida.
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Watser? and I said mean things about Hillary!
You said stupid things about Hillary, and Trump, and politics and elections in general. What I'm doing here is continually calling out how bad your arguments and views are.
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Still, it’s his fault, and mine, for refusing to drink the Killary Kool-Ade.
It's not particularly any of our faults, we are just ordinary citizens.

But that doesn't make the aforementioned arguments and views any less stupid.

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Please spare me your insipid sanctimony. No nation that has done so many wrongs to other nations -- including the Native American nation and the nations of Africa, whose people it systematically enslaved -- has any call to whine about someone else "hacking" its precious election
I am not America. I didn't do any of those things. And I didn't and don't approve of any of those things. You're talking to me, not "America". And at any rate, it's still fallacious reasoning.

Last edited by erimir; 12-09-2017 at 01:15 AM.
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  #68  
Old 12-09-2017, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Also never mind that the capital of the US is Tel Aviv
JEEEEWWWWWWS!
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  #69  
Old 12-09-2017, 01:12 AM
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News Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Israeli planes hit Gaza Strip as Donald Trump-driven violence ramps up

Yeah, I like that. Trump-driven violence.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Who's Trump? :confused: Netanyahu is the President of the United States.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:36 AM
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An Israeli Facebook friend of mine:

Quote:
OMG, I'm sharing Trump's tweet. And he's bragging about walking the walk on Jerusalem, whilst predecessors have only talked the talk.
And you know what - he's right. Clinton, Bush, Obama, they all talked the talk about Jerusalem being 'Israel's capital'. And Trump made it policy. He's right, because this was the double-game USA was playing, in order to be considered an 'honest broker' in the 'peace process'. But it never was. Trump spilled the beans and dropped the masks.
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  #72  
Old 12-09-2017, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Also never mind that the capital of the US is Tel Aviv
JEEEEWWWWWWS!
Also, keep up. The capital of the US is now Jerusalem.
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Nothing to see here, certainly no reason to think there's Israeli interference in US elections...

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Old 12-09-2017, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Flynn indictment exposes collusion with Israel, not Russia

But the Russians are a better enemy to have...
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Old 12-09-2017, 01:50 PM
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The gist of this backlash is that the presidentís move has needlessly undermined efforts to achieve peace, and risked causing new violence in the region. But while this criticism is certainly warranted, too much of it focuses on the threat of an abstract and angry Arab backlash, overemphasizing the specter of violence while the political, diplomatic, and ethical problems that are at the heart of Trumpís policy take a back seat or remain ignored entirely.
The response to Trump's Jerusalem declaration has focused too much on the fear of Arab backlash.
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