Why must feminism exist?

[ManM]

OMG! Howdy!
Now don't derail the troll bait.

[BDS]

I don't think the merits or demerits of the femminist movement can be adjudicated by looking at one battle between a mother and her daughter.

p.s. The movie "The Color Purple" sucked -- Spielberg at his sappiest (although the book is pretty good).

[ManM]

Originally Posted by Rebecca Walker

You see, my mum taught me that children enslave women. I grew up believing that children are millstones around your neck, and the idea that motherhood can make you blissfully happy is a complete fairytale.
...
Feminism has much to answer for denigrating men and encouraging women to seek independence whatever the cost to their families.
...
It was drummed into me that being a mother, raising children and running a home were a form of slavery. Having a career, travelling the world and being independent were what really mattered according to her.

Surely you can assign at least one or two demerits to these ideas.

[BDS]

Nope. Having a career, travelling the world and being independent were all that really mattered according to a great many parents. In decades past, however, most of them were called "fathers". Are you accusing these fathers of being feminists?

Children DO enslave parents; the idea that children will make you blissfully happy IS a fairytale. Do we blame feminists for telling the truth?

The notion that feminists encourage women to "seek independence whatever the cost to their families" is simply silly. I doubt (for example) that many feminists encourage women to murder their families to attain independence.

[ManM]

Ah, an argument for the sake of argument. I wouldn't accuse those fathers of being feminists, I'd accuse them of being selfish. Is it worthy of praise that at least one prominent feminist co-opted the worst of behavoir from men? And what about the children? Enslaving oppressors, the lot of them? Surely there is more to it than that. As for Rebecca's sweeping statements about feminism, I would suggest a letter writing campaign. You can always explain to her what feminism really entails, in spite of her experiences.

Based on Rebecca's account, it seems that her mother's feminism took on the character of glorifying the very worst examples of deadbeat parenting. So, you really can't assign demerits to those ideas?

[BDS]

Rebecca's mother appears (on the one-sided basis of Rebecca's account) to have been a self-centered jerk. Plenty of non-femminists (even a few men) are self-centered, and many are jerks. To blame femminism for the behavior of some of its proponents is analagous to blaming Christianity for the behavior of some of its proponents.

Of course Christians who want to pillage the Holy Land may SAY they are Crusading in the name of Christianity, and femminists who want to shirk their parental responsibilities may say they are doing it in the name of femminism.

In addition, a person can be "enslaved" without blame attaching to the enslaver. (Children enslave their parents, to some extent, and lovers enslave their lovers, to some extent.)

If I had to judge between Rebecca and Alice, the link you posted would NOT lead me to believe that the difficulties are ENTIRELY Alice's fault. Rebecca portrays herself as bitter, resentful, and (as a result) untrustworthy. She's still screaming for Mommy, and the only way to get Mommy's attention is to ATTACK.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ManM

I wouldn't accuse those fathers of being feminists, I'd accuse them of being selfish. Is it worthy of praise that at least one prominent feminist co-opted the worst of behavoir from men?

I think the point (or, at least, part of it) is that when exclusively men were engaging in this sort of behavior, it wasn't considered the worst of anything, it was just considered normal.

[ManM]

BDS,
Well, where does that leave us? If you peal away the statements from the actions of the mother, I think they are still fairly despicable. The next question is more interesting. Were those statements accurate reflections of feminism? Christianity can be used to condemn the crusader. Can the same be said of Alice Walker's feminism?

Adam,
That's news to me. On what grounds do you suppose that it was considered normal for a man to be irresponsible and negligent?

[BDS]

I think a lot of super-successful people are maladjusted, self-centered, and self-indulgent. The psychological profile that leads one to be happy, well adjusted, and selfless does not necessarily create the drive necessary for genius (whether Alice Walker is a genius is another question, of course).

Revolutionary fervor is doubtless correlated with psychological maladjustment, as well.

So (to make up a story on a subject I know nothing about), I'm guessing Alice Walker is a driven, self-centered, psychologically unbalanced (slightly) individual, who embraced revolutionary femminism in part as an expression of her dissatisfaction with herself and with the world. Her novels and poetry are another expression of that dissatisfaction.

None of this excuses Walker, although her Yalie daughter might have been less driven and successful herself, had Walker been a more loving mother. Also, although any rift between parents and their children is tragic, such rifts are not so uncommon as to be monstrous. Walker's daughter appears to have reached adulthood intact, Yale education and all. She was neglected, but not abused. It's sad that Alice doesn't want to see her grandchild, but not tragic. And I think Walker's feminism is an excuse for her behavior, not the cause of it. I'll bet she sees motherhood as a temptation to satisfiec complacency, that she must resist in the interest of her art, not in the interest of feminism.

Finally, the daughter has written an entire book on her childhood, doubtless trashing her mom repeatedly, so Walker's current bitterness is eminently understandable.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ManM

That's news to me. On what grounds do you suppose that it was considered normal for a man to be irresponsible and negligent?

That's not what I was saying. My point was that "Having a career, travelling the world and being independent" were not considered negligent or irresponsible until women started demanding the same right to do those things that men already enjoyed.

[BDS]

Originally Posted by Adam

That's not what I was saying. My point was that "Having a career, travelling the world and being independent" were not considered negligent or irresponsible until women started demanding the same right to do those things that men already enjoyed.

Not considered irresponsible by whom? As a single father, I certainly molded my career to be compatable with my parenting responsiblities.

You are correct, however, in suggesting that many single fathers (and non-single fathers) neglect their children more than Walker did, without being castigated for it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BDS

Not considered irresponsible by whom? As a single father, I certainly molded my career to be compatable with my parenting responsiblities.

You are correct, however, in suggesting that many single fathers (and non-single fathers) neglect their children more than Walker did, without being castigated for it.

If we were speaking specifically about single parents, then I apologize for having missed that. My point was that a parent who is independent, has a career, travels, etc. has never been considered particularly unusual, providing that parent is male.

[BDS]

Originally Posted by Adam

If we were speaking specifically about single parents, then I apologize for having missed that. My point was that a parent who is independent, has a career, travels, etc. has never been considered particularly unusual, providing that parent is male.

I don't think WE were necessarily speaking about single parents, except inasmuch as Alice Walker was one (for most of her daughter's childhood). Of course it's easier to travel, have a career, etc. if you have a partner to help look after the kid while you are gone -- and that's true for both fathers and mothers.

Rebecca Walker talks about how her father is a “brilliant lawyer son of a Jewish family that fled the Holocaust.” She also says, “My father's second wife, Judy, was a loving, maternal homemaker with five children she doted on.” I wonder if her father – the brilliant lawyer – was a more attentive parent than Alice. Or did he just marry a woman who accepted the role?

[ManM]

BDS,
It is harder for me to separate the actions from the philosophy. An excuse is meant to justify behavior that is known to be suspect. The way Rebecca tells it, her mother wasn't making excuses, but rather was positively glorifying her actions. "I am this way because it is good to be this way."

Adam,
We are having a disconnect as to the sort of behavior I was referring to. Had a man pursued his career and traveled the world at the expense of his responsibilities to his children, I suspect that he would have been considered negligent, even before women demanded their right to be wage slaves.

[ChuckF]

That article needs more pee sex.

[BDS]

Originally Posted by ManM

BDS,
It is harder for me to separate the actions from the philosophy. An excuse is meant to justify behavior that is known to be suspect. The way Rebecca tells it, her mother wasn't making excuses, but rather was positively glorifying her actions. "I am this way because it is good to be this way."

.

That's true. And Alice Walker is correct (in a sense) that "it is good to be this way." That is, it is good to be a famous poet and novelist. The extent to which being a famous novelist and poet is more or less important than being a good parent is debatable, of course, as is the extent to which they are mutually exclusive.

If I had to guess, I would guess that some people could be good single parents and famous novelists and poets. Many could not, though. It's not the commitment in terms of time that makes the two incompatible -- it's a combination of the commitment in terms of emotional energy, and the fact that the psychological maladjustment that drives someone to express herself artistically may be incompatible with the more staid and homely qualities that best nurture children.

Good marriages make for bad love songs. Faith in one's spouse is essential to a good marriage, but uncertainty and emotional trauma are the essence of romance, and novelists and poets are romantics.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ManM

We are having a disconnect as to the sort of behavior I was referring to.

Originally Posted by ChuckF

That article needs more pee sex.

Agreed on both counts.

[Qingdai]

Being the second daughter of a feminist, Rebecca sounds a lot like my older sister. She was shuttled between two families with opposing lifestyles and read things into my mother's behaviour that simply wasn't there. It's nice to have some larger force to blame when your family is dysfunctional.

Divorce is a very different animal than feminism. Many things that are available to support children of divorces weren't available or known until relatively recently.
Since the popularization of feminism, children aren't pariahs. I would call that an advancement.

It's also not really a surprise that writers (artists what ever) are selfish people in real life.