#3726  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:29 PM
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That's one of the reasons I love those seemingly repetitive user-contributed things about street harassments and everyday sexisms, and why I will always always signal boost them when and wherever I get a chance.

Whenever I'd try to tell someone about the type of harassment that I'd experienced somewhere, I'd run into people who were skeptical at least. Either they thought I was making things up or exaggerating them, or that I was somehow doing something to cause it. Not just from men, as expected, but also from women who hadn't had those experiences for whatever reason.

You can't really conclude a whole lot about 'American culture.' That's like talking about 'European culture.' We have a bunch of different cultures and climates in the US, so things that happen in New York City might not make sense to someone from Salt Lake City, and vice versa. Different sexisms, different racisms, different classisms. And just your regular routine makes a big difference too. In the same geographic area, I'd have very different daily experiences when I was working in an isolated area, commuting by car vs. when I was working in a downtown area and taking public transportation and walking.

AND OMG also with microaggressions like that lavaballing or that thing where dudes will just move you like you're an inanimate object. I just stopped even telling people about that sort of thing at some point because nobody ever believed it. That incredulousness is a pretty good technique for getting people to shut up and to internalize the problem.

People are always going to be skeptical and dismissive of things that fall outside of their experiences. That's just human nature. So the only way to get people to see and understand that other people really are dealing with those sorts of things is by having people tell their stories over and over again until they finally start to become one of those things that everyone knows about, sort of the way people "know" things about living in NYC or Los Angeles even if they've never been there.
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  #3727  
Old 06-21-2013, 04:45 PM
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I agree with you on all of that. I've seen a number of testimonials from people who said the sheer weight of repetition on Everyday Sexism has made them see a problem they didn't know existed. I've learned a lot from it myself, and from your own experiences on here. I now feel like I lead a charmed life because I've had so little exposure to it. At the same time, some of these things have made me remember incidents that I'd forgotten and see them in a new light.
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  #3728  
Old 06-21-2013, 05:05 PM
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I feel like I lived in a bubble for most of my life when it comes to sexism because I grew up watching my older cousins burning their bras and going to marches and then I spent decades living with and around hippies who aren't immune to it but know better than to express it so it can be easily waved off and ignored. I worked in tech where gender doesn't get in the way as long as you're fast and accurate and I got every job that I ever applied for so I can't say that I was discriminated against in that way. Now I live in a very liberal place and I don't even know anyone under 60 that would act out on sexist urges or thoughts if they had them. When I worked with nonprofits being female was the norm so there was no problem there. I've had some horrible experiences (as many women have) but not in any institutionalized way.

Then the internet happened. I couldn't believe some of the stuff that I was reading from just regular guys of all ages all over the country and now I don't know if I was just incredibly naive about how far we had come or if it's gotten a whole lot worse in the last decade. It's really disturbing to see what some young women consider to be acceptable and normal now and I don't think that it's just because of my age. They dance to things that I would have punched someone for saying.
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  #3729  
Old 06-21-2013, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristinaM View Post
I worked in tech where gender doesn't get in the way as long as you're fast and accurate and I got every job that I ever applied for so I can't say that I was discriminated against in that way.
Me too. Twice, men I've worked with have actually fucked themselves over due to their extreme resistance to listening to what I was telling them. One got fired, the other demoted. Happened once in college, too. Those are just the ones who got caught red-handed.

There have been multiple times that I've been the only woman in my area (my department, my division, once the whole floor of a two story building) who wasn't in some kind of administrative role. And because the nature of what I was usually doing was initial development, I'd work with different groups of people all the time--either clients or just different groups within the company. Almost every time shortly after starting a new project, someone would assume I was a secretary.

Once, when I was busy and brushed someone off rather than patiently explaining why I wasn't going to type a memo for them or whatever, they told on me to my 20 year old intern. Who was probably wearing a Busta Rhymes shirt and a backwards baseball cap, because he usually was.

Once, on my first day at a new company, the VP stopped in and told me she was glad there was finally a woman in the department because women are good at multitasking. (Think about the types of jobs that require 'multitasking.' Yeah.)

Some tech companies are better than others, some tech fields are better than others, and everything's better once you know your coworkers and they know you, so you're not just working from lazy assumptions. But trust me: Tech can be toxic.
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  #3730  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:08 PM
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Oh, I believe you because once I got more exposed to life outside of leftyland it became obvious that I had managed to blithely sidestep things either through luck or being oblivious to people or things that didn't get in my way. I think that it was around the time that the religious right got going that I realized that outside of my little world laws had changed but not necessarily attitudes. I was never naive about rape and domestic violence but I really thought that we were past the workplace BS for the most part up until 25 years or so ago.
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  #3731  
Old 06-21-2013, 08:24 PM
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I happen to enjoy the game Skyrim. One of the reasons I enjoy it is because it doesn't matter in the slightest whether the character you play happens to be male or female; at least, not so far that I've noticed.

I particularly like the music; the "Song of the Dragonborn" is just epic. So, I was looking for information about the song yesterday when I came across this video by the very talented Peter Hollens and Lindsey Stirling.




The video is, frankly, kind of silly, though it has excellent production values. The real appeal is that Peter and Lindsey are excellent musicians.


Still, I must admit that aside from the music, the main appeal of the video is seeing a very pretty young woman dancing and smiling and looking like she's having a wonderful time. If the roles were reversed and Peter was dancing and having a great time while Lindsey was looking all dour and super-serious, it probably wouldn't be half so appealing to me.


Anyway, I bring this up because I found the video at a Skyrim message board, and I was struck by the irony. I mean, the designers of the game apparently made a conscious decision to produce a game in which the sex of your character doesn't matter in the slightest. Yet a huge number of the comments regarding the video were very blatantly sexist, and were either about how much they really couldn't care less about Lindsey's musical talents, they just wanted to get her into bed; or saying something really revolting like, "bitch can play the fiddle."


Sometimes, I really feel ashamed for my species.

I almost never visit gaming boards. But if that one was even a little representative, I must say that even though I've read plenty about how much sexism there is in the gaming industry, I was nonetheless surprised at how openly and visciously sexist a great many of the comments were.


ETA: I'm a musician myself, and I must say that I think it's downright criminal what they're doing with that violin bow. I know it's play-acting and all, but I think I'm safe in saying that pretty-much every musician I know would regard treating one's instrument in such a manner as something akin to blasphemy. (Granted, I noticed that she didn't treat the violin so cavalierly, but still ...)
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  #3732  
Old 06-21-2013, 10:28 PM
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It seems that every strategy in a game that annoys a player is "gay" on video game boards I've been to. People who use those strategies are "faggots."

Also, they wonder why anybody thinks there should be more female characters added.
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  #3733  
Old 06-22-2013, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ymir's blood View Post
(blog decrying) Kickstarter for rape manual.

http://caseymalone.com/post/53339539...cking-harmless
We were wrong » The Kickstarter Blog — Kickstarter
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  #3734  
Old 06-22-2013, 05:42 AM
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That's a real apology...no weasely "wrong decisions were made".
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  #3735  
Old 06-22-2013, 09:12 AM
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I am glad that they are taking a stand now. I will say that in the comments someone made a good point. With the Kobe Beef Jerky Fraud they were able to pull the campaign minutes before it funded. Also, it typically takes around a week to transfer those kinds of funds. So it would be really easy for them to stop a check right now.

That part of the apology kind of rings hollow to me. But, I imagine, if that was not spelled out in their TOS before now, they would have a potential lawsuit on their hands.

Hopefully, that kind of crap won't get through moderation to begin with in future.
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  #3736  
Old 06-23-2013, 06:50 AM
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A proposal for moms-to-be (like abortion rules, it’s for their own good) - The Washington Post
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  #3737  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:10 PM
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BoingBoing has a biggish article about the Kickstarter PUA up:

Kickstop: how a sleazebag slipped through Kickstarter's cracks - Boing Boing

This comment is probably the best part, though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinnie Tesla

HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS

Many people like to hang out with their friends at their houses. Waiting around for someone to ask you over to his house is rather ineffectual, however. Therefore, the best thing to do is identify the house of someone you want to be your friend, and make your way around it, checking for any doors or windows that may be unlocked.

If you find an unlocked window the friendly thing is to climb in. Once inside, make yourself at-home in your new friend's house. If you encounter your friend in your explorations of his house, he may express surprise at your presence.

If he says, "Who the hell are you?" or "What are you doing here?" feel free to strike up a conversation with him. Remember--so long as he doesn't say "I do not want you here. Please leave immediately," you have deniab^H^H^H^H^H^Hno reason to think you are not a welcome guest.

If he does say that, apologize politely and leave. It is best to wait several minutes before trying his doors and windows again.
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  #3738  
Old 06-23-2013, 08:56 PM
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I am skeptical of the portrayal of those drawn to PUA-holery (even by those criticizing the culture ) as awkward and socially inept, as if these are all harmless, clueless guys with low self esteem just looking to get laid. I just don't buy that. It's like the old cliche about bullies-that they had low self esteem and bullied to feel better about themselves-but it turned out bullies, on average, feel pretty darned good about themselves.

Nuh-uh, these pricks are entitled and self absorbed and get off on the power aspects, IMO. People that are truly awkward and self conscious would have a really hard time being all Tarzan like that. Any social isolation they experience is probably due to all the douchebaggery.

Just my thought.

Last edited by LadyShea; 06-23-2013 at 09:39 PM.
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  #3739  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:16 PM
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Nerds and PUAs are two areas I have some expertise in. I've for some reason known a lot of both, and there actually is some overlap, both between 'nerds' and the audience for PUA material, and often, between socially inept awkward types and entitled, self absorbed pricks. Some people are socially inept because they think everyone else is stupid.

Although you're spot on that the successful PUAs tend to just be regular narcissists, a lot of well-meaning nerds are very calculated about improving their social skills. Not in a bad way or anything, but they'll often approach socialization like a regular course of study, the way you might set out to learn programming or knitting or something. One friend of mine actually took a class in how to small talk. (It was just weird, because most of his friends were also nerds, so his ice breakers ended up turning everything into some weird, stitled almost like a gameshow or a pop quiz or something. It's hard to describe, but it was WEIRD. DON'T TAKE A SMALL TALK CLASS unless it's the programming language because I know some wise guy is getting ready to say that I don't care if you take a smalltalk programming class.) Another friend, who was pretty much the definitive nerd--bowl cut and thick glasses, extreme introvert who would communicate almost entirely in the form of long, intense discussions of pet topics*--just up and JOINED AN IMPROV TROUPE. HE JOINED AN IMPROV TROUPE and PERFORMED IN PUBLIC. I've known a few people who joined Toastmasters and stuff like that too. So yeah, any kind of material that purports to train you to interact with humans is going to have some appeal to socially awkward or aspirational nerds.

I also worked at a really small really nerd company for some time, and this PUA book had been getting passed around among the nerds, and I intercepted it and was sort of preemptively cockblocking all my coworkers for a while, calling meetings in my office to tell everyone not to do some exercise in the book or something. Plus at the time, I was sort of friends with a guy who had written some PUA material (HUGE nerd, also pretty vain and obnoxious, but definitely a nerd), so I was doing a lot of PUA analysis and research and stuff. The guy who wrote the stuff told me his audience was almost entirely just nerds, and from the material, it really did seem like it was written for that audience. It was also hilarious to imagine anyone trying to use his suggestions, because they were all weird and involved talking really funny and making weird gestures and stuff.

From what I saw, the well-meaning and socially aspirational nerds would be interested in things about improving their confidence and guiding conversations, which is a subset of PUA material. The ones who got really really into the parts about manipulating women to do things they didn't want to were the big jerks, although some big jerks were also bitter nerds.

I think there really is a big underserved audience for basic social skill instruction. Just for basic interactions, like how far to stand from people and where to put your hands and how to follow and participate in a casual conversation; and I think that a fair number of the people who buy the material are really just looking for instruction on How To Talk to Lady Humangs.

* Many of which I shared, so it would get weird for other people when we were out with a group sometimes. Ha ha.
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  #3740  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:29 PM
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I am down for helping people with this kind of thing (talking and standing and such), but the physical escalation without a green light, and that " inferred consent after the fact", and "negging" and shit like that is just gross
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  #3741  
Old 06-23-2013, 10:52 PM
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Oh, yeah. I'm not endorsing PUA material at all. I just think that a significant portion of its audience really is socially awkward nerds like people say. The more successful practitioners are going to be the straight up skeezes, but the nerds are possibly the largest general audience for it.

It's not ever the right message, though. Even if they're picking and choosing social tips and tricks, they're still purchasing and consuming material that addresses women as though they're acquisitions and not human beings.

PLUS, most PUA material focuses pretty heavily on targeting socially awkward women, so even if--big if--it is helpful to some socially awkward and vulnerable men, any good it does there is completely cancelled out by its exploitation of similarly socially awkward and vulnerable women.

Who's going to respond to negging or tolerate someone pulling them into their lap? Women who are alone, afraid, insecure, and unsure of themselves.

There used to be a PUA, I think it was a guy on II, who recommended picking up women in unpleasant environments like dentists' offices or like at IRS buildings and stuff, because they would be extra scared and vulnerable.

PUAs are shit. PUA material is shit, and while I do think a significant percentage of the audience for that material has largely benign motivations, they are doing a shit thing when they buy, use, or promote PUA material.
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  #3742  
Old 06-24-2013, 03:48 PM
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I'm running out of words to describe the stupidity.

Quote:
One such amendment would have called for an exemption to the ban in cases of rape and incest; state Rep. Jodie Laubenberg, R-Parker, felt such an exception was unnecessary because “in the emergency room they have what’s called rape kits where a woman can get cleaned out,” she said, incorrectly comparing the procedure to collect physical evidence after a sexual assault to an abortion. “The woman had five months to make that decision, at this point we are looking at a baby that is very far along in its development.”
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  #3743  
Old 06-24-2013, 04:02 PM
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Gawds that crap pisses me off. It's not a baby. By definition if it's unborn, it's not a baby.
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  #3744  
Old 06-24-2013, 06:22 PM
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Jesus Christ, how many more hackneyed episodes of Law & Order: SVU have to be made before legislators finally figure out what a rape kit is?
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  #3745  
Old 06-25-2013, 08:28 PM
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This is rape culture

12-Year-Old Girl Kicked Off Football Team Because Boys Had 'Impure Thoughts' About Her | ThinkProgress

Quote:
A private school outside Atlanta recently informed 12-year-old Madison Baxter that she would not be welcome at tryouts for the 7th-grade football team, even though she started on the sixth-grade team and has been playing football since second grade. The reason she won’t be allowed on the field? Because her male teammates are beginning to have “impure thoughts” about her, Strong Rock Christian Academy school administrator Patrick Stuart told Baxter’s mother.
Definitely the girls fault.
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  #3746  
Old 06-25-2013, 09:02 PM
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LadyShea LadyShea is offline
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

So is there a market for actual social tips that don't teach awkward nerds to sexually harass and assault people? Because we could do that :capitalistpig:
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  #3747  
Old 06-25-2013, 10:20 PM
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The Lone Ranger The Lone Ranger is offline
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

Heck, I'd probably buy it.


I don't think of myself as socially awkward. Or at least, I'm not shy. I tend to be very quiet though, as I generally work on the assumption that if I don't have anything useful to contribute, I'd rather just keep quiet.

So people who don't know me often think that I'm shy and have trouble communicating with others. It sometimes occurs to me that I don't really understand most other people all that well, and as a rule, I have very little interest in things like "small talk."

Even people who know and like me sometimes claim that I can make them feel "uncomfortable," because if I don't feel like I have anything interesting/helpful to say, I don't speak. It's not intentional on my part; I certainly don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable. I'm not upset or too shy to speak, or anything like that -- give me something to speak about that I feel qualified to speak about, and I'll happily go on and on and on and on ...


From my perspective, the problem isn't that I speak too little; it's that most people speak quite a lot while saying very little. And I have little to no interest in idle chatter.
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  #3748  
Old 06-26-2013, 12:10 AM
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Janet Janet is offline
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

I've been thinking lately about starting a project to document subtle misogyny in the media. I've written on here before about how the true crime channel in the U.S. has many more shows about female murderers than male even though the actual statistics are strongly in the other direction.

A couple weeks ago I was watching one of those home improvement shows and I started really hating the woman in the couple. I know most reality shows are designed to make you hate people, but in this case it was the woman I hated. Once I became aware of it I noticed two things.

A) Despite the biased editing it was clear that the male of the couple was the one really being the jerk.
B) Looking back over the times I had watched the show before I could only think of one time where a man came off as horrible, and he was gay so there was no woman to hate that day.

Since that night I've been trying to consciously document when shows or commercials make the woman seem hateful. There's a car commercial running right now that makes me hate this one woman's smug face and every time I see it I remember that I'm supposed to be looking for counter-examples. I still think it might be a good project, if I can focus enough to do it. So much of this stuff is omnipresent that I just zone out when I see it.

The only reason I'm mentioning it now is the talk about socially awkward men. I'm rewatching the first season of Fringe on DVD. Last night I watched an episode where a socially awkward man answered an ad about confidence building and got used in illegal experiments that gave him electrical powers. He was obviously a mess. His mother nagged him about being useless and he had taken a picture with his phone of a girl he had a crush on and made it his phone wallpaper.

So, he's trying to talk to this girl and she blanks him and makes a date with another man. Then she gets on the elevator with him and knocks the phone out of his hand by accident. She sees the image and gets justifiably creeped out and tells him to get away from her. He is so embarrassed that his powers manifest and the elevator crashes, killing everyone but him. Later he goes home to try to explain to his mother, who berates him for being a loser and wasting money on the confidence building company. He gets distressed and shorts out her pacemaker, killing her. And you know what? Through all of this he is portrayed as the sympathetic character. We are supposed to feel bad for him that the women in his life are judging him, despite the fact that he kills both of them. And this is a show with a very positive, strong female lead character.

I have a feeling if I start documenting this I will never stop.
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  #3749  
Old 06-26-2013, 05:22 AM
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The Man The Man is offline
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

I agree that Fringe episode is pretty flaky about its handling of gender issues, but I'm not sure we're supposed to think he's not a creepy weirdo or a complete fuckup, because he pretty obviously is both. The reason we're supposed to feel sorry for him seems to be mostly that he's been experimented on without being told anything about the powers he's been given, and his killing of the women appears to be entirely accidental. For me the big problem with it is that it's apparently trying to make him creepy but still sympathetic, and the sympathetic part is emphasized more than the fact that what he does is still really fucking creepy.

Anyway, your daily dose of derp from Republican legislators:

Texas Sen. Bob Deuell Knows How Babby Is Formed: Only By ‘Accurate Intercourse’

As an added bonus, this shitbag is apparently an alleged physician.
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  #3750  
Old 06-26-2013, 07:09 AM
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Default Re: Return to Gender 101

Texas continues to be awful, as usual, but I have a new hero in State Sen. Wendy Davis:

Texas Republicans pass anti-abortion bill — or do they? Filibuster ends in chaos | The Raw Story

‘Bullsh*t!’ Texas Senate gallery erupts as GOP kills Sen. Wendy Davis’ filibuster | The Raw Story

Texas Democratic Party chair: Sen. Wendy Davis should run for governor | The Raw Story

Wait, how did Texas Republicans pause Wendy Davis’ filibuster?
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