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  #1201  
Old 08-10-2014, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Consider the overspending is just delayed taxes.

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  #1202  
Old 08-10-2014, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
In 1944 you could deduct almost anything, for example, if your employer provided you with a home and a car, an expense account, travel costs for you and your spouse, those were all tax deductible.
Yes, think of how many employers provided their workers with houses and cars in 1944*, and now think about how many people receive homes and cars from their employers today*- and cannot deduct the taxes on such, except for commuting and mileage deductions, etc.

Travel costs for business are still tax deductible.

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Consider the overspending is just delayed taxes.
The federal deficit has been sharply declining, and the US tax burden is still very low. But then of course the underspending domestically is also at great delayed cost- less educated workforce, infrastructure maintenance delayed indefinitely on bridges, highways, electrical grids- resulting in higher cost future rebuilds. Jobs programs slashed resulting in a crushing backlog of underemployment and unemployment.

It's like you think you're making a point, but unsurprisingly the point you're making is you (still) don't know what you are talking about.


*:rolleye2:
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  #1203  
Old 08-10-2014, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Reducing the bleed slightly does not fix the wound.



The debt will need to be paid back either through tax or inflation (backdoor tax on workers).

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  #1204  
Old 08-10-2014, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
cars in 1944*, and now think about how many people receive homes and cars from their employers today*
Plenty!
Well they may be CEOs or upper management, and they may be given them as bonuses for stripping away worker benefits and developing internal policies to show workers how to go on welfare all the while lobbying against welfare increases so they can keep their peons permanently underfoot.

But it still happens!
Maybe one day if people work hard enough they too can be elected to CEO by a group of millionaires who think they are lazy scum and then they to will enjoy the benefits of screwing over everyone for the companies bottom line.
It's the American Dream!
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  #1205  
Old 08-10-2014, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

To expand in the 1944 income tax.

These were all exempt from the tax:

Buisness expeses
Medical expeseses
Gasoline taxes
State sales taxes
Personal intrest
No AMT tax
Married couple exemption was $15,600, plus another $4,500 per dependent

You guys really don;t understand the tax system, nor the implications of what you advocate.
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  #1206  
Old 08-10-2014, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Some more exemptions in 1944 from income tax:

Armed Forces Income
Social Security Benefits
Sickness/Injury Benefits
Gifts
Inheritance
Contributions
Interest
Other Taxes (sales tax/gasoline/state income/property/etc.)
Lost from Theft/Fire/Storm
Medical/Dental
Real Estate Interest
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  #1207  
Old 08-10-2014, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Okay, let's go down the list of the exciting possible deductions or exemptions one could claim in 1944. Where Jerome got this information is of course not linked/ referenced/ verifiable, because you know, Jerome doesn't like to (or can't be bothered to) provide sourcing when shitposting about things he doesn't understand.

Business expenses- Can be deducted today.
Medical expenses- Can be deducted today.
Gasoline taxes- The gas tax in 1944 was 1.5 cents per gallon; raised from 1 cent in 1941 to help pay for the war effort. that's 21 cents per gallon in 2014 dollars. The federal gas tax is 18.4 cents today.
State sales taxes- Can be deducted today (though you have to pick, state sales taxes or state income taxes that you want to deduct- not both)
Personal interest- Not deductible today, though mortgage interest, investment interest, and business interest is.
No AMT tax- This impacts 4.2% of Americans, i.e. those making over $51,900 (individuals) / $80,800 (jointly) adjusted gross income- i.e. after calculating in deductions.
Married couple exemption was $15,600, plus another $4,500 per dependent- Today the married filing jointly standard deduction is $12,400. Dependent deductions are $3,900.
Armed Forces Income- Today certain combat pay, uniform costs, travel costs for reservists, and moving costs are all deductible for military personnel. Though not surprising that military pay was exempt from taxation in 1944. As well, in 1944 a PFC making combat pay for 12 months in a row earned about $18k in 2014 dollars.
Social Security Benefits- Today these are taxed only if you have secondary income that in total exceeds a base calculation- in 2012 that was $25k single / $32k joint.
Sickness/Injury Benefits- Today this depends; sick pay is taxable but other forms of sickness and injury benefits such as disability are not taxable or dependent on secondary factors.
Gifts- Depends on the value of the gift and whether you are giving or receiving.
Inheritance- If this could be written off in 1944, it was likely because the estate tax in 1944 was for anything over $6,771 (in 2014 dollars). This tax today applies to estates worth over $5,340,000.
Contributions- Today charitable contributions remain deductible.
Interest- Not sure what types of interest Jerome is referencing here, but as stated above, today mortgage interest, investment interest, and business interest are all deductible, while personal interest is not.
Other Taxes (state income/property) - Today these are deductible.
Losses from Theft/Fire/Storm- Deductible today.
Medical/Dental - Deductible today. Not sure why this got mentioned twice in Jerome's list, but now it's answered twice.
Real Estate Interest- If by this Jerome means mortgage interest, as mentioned above this is also a deduction available today.

Hmm. Sounds like Jerome is mostly talking out his ass again, about how different things were in 1944 in terms of deductions. Gas tax is the biggest stand-out, followed by AMT (mostly impacting people making over $75k in today's dollars), and a much lower threshold in 1944 for estate taxes. Not sure why this makes him chortle and lol and talk about relativity and apples-to-apples and otherwise poop himself, but here we are.

Last edited by chunksmediocrites; 08-11-2014 at 12:00 AM.
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  #1208  
Old 08-10-2014, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

I am glad we all agree it is ok for the federal government to coercively confiscate 94% of a taxpayer's wealth.
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  #1209  
Old 08-11-2014, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Social Security Benefits- Today these are taxed only if you have secondary income that in total exceeds a base calculation- in 2012 that was $25k single / $32k joint.
I think we have Ronald Reagan to thank for this tax on SS benefits. Someone had to suffer to give 1%ers their huge tax cuts.
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Originally Posted by chunks
Sickness/Injury Benefits- Today this depends; sick pay is taxable but other forms of sickness and injury benefits such as disability are not taxable or dependent on secondary factors.
In addition to that, unemployment benefits are taxed thanks to Reagan too, tax cutter that he was.[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunks
Interest- Not sure what types of interest Jerome is referencing here, but as stated above, today mortgage interest, investment interest, and business interest are all deductible, while personal interest is not.
I remember deducting personal loan interest back in the early 80s, the first time I had enough income to file long form. Again, thanks to Ronald Wilson Reagan, the middle class took a big hit in order to lower the tax rates on the wealthy.
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  #1210  
Old 08-11-2014, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

This appears to be where Jerome is getting most of his claims. As you might expect, it's a homemade webpage without any sources for claims about deductibles in 1944:

Almost Classical: The 90% Tax Rate Myth
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  #1211  
Old 08-11-2014, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

lol, I got them from the 1944 1040 instructions.

You can find it @irs.gov
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  #1212  
Old 08-11-2014, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Medical expenses- Can be deducted today.
Not going through each one, but just as an example of your fraudulent presentation:

Quote:
For years beginning after December 31, 2012, you may deduct only the amount by which your total medical expenses exceed 10% of your adjusted gross income
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  #1213  
Old 08-11-2014, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Dingfod just missed the point entirely, that being people would be better off with the tax rates and deductions of the 1944 tax code even with its high rate of 94%.
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  #1214  
Old 08-11-2014, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites;1200165
[B
Inheritance[/B]- If this could be written off in 1944, it was likely because the estate tax in 1944 was for anything over $6,771 (in 2014 dollars).
lol, that is a link to an estate/trust income tax form, to pay taxes on income earned by the estate/trust.

Guaranteed that zero of the people that 'thanked' your post even attempted to check what you are claiming.

You are a liar and a fraud. :wave:
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  #1215  
Old 08-12-2014, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
People would be better off with the tax rates and deductions of the 1944 tax code even with its high rate of 94%.
All depends on which people you are talking about and what you mean by better off. Proving your point would require you to name an income and then do the math for that return in 1944 and today, adjusting for inflation.

Those in the top 1%, IF their income was not primarily capital gains (as capital gains as far as I can tell were taxed at 25% in 1944 and are taxed at the same rate today), would pay more generally. The billionaires up in the 0.1% category make almost all their income in capital gains, so they would pay more on their regular income, but a lower overall percentage compared to middle earners, in both tax years.

I appreciate a tax code that is progressive, and 1944 is closer to that than 2014, though certainly not ideal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites;1200165
[B
Inheritance[/B]- If this could be written off in 1944, it was likely because the estate tax in 1944 was for anything over $6,771 (in 2014 dollars).
lol, that is a link to an estate/trust income tax form, to pay taxes on income earned by the estate/trust.
You're right, my error. I struggled to find any coherent tax information for estate taxes for 1944, and should have read it more carefully. Digging again just now here's as close as I have been able to find. In that link, Figure D states that for 1942 to 1976 the exemption was $60,000, with an initial rate of 3% and a top rate of 77%, the top rate starting at $10 million. The table does not state whether that's in a particular year's dollar amount; if that's in 1944 dollars then it is the equivalent to a $812,532.95 exemption, and the 77% rate kicking in at over $135.4 million.
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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Guaranteed that zero of the people that 'thanked' your post even attempted to check what you are claiming.
I'm not sure how you would guarantee that but I'm sure it is fun to say.
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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
You are a liar and a fraud. :wave:
Well... I suppose if anyone knows something about being a lying fraud it would be the person who claims to own umpteen medium-sized corporations, claims HIV is a myth, claims the US President is involved in a conspiracy to hide his citizenship status, claims the Sandy Hook school shooting was a government conspiracy... but, amazing as it may seem- you're wrong.
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  #1216  
Old 08-12-2014, 12:22 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Medical expenses- Can be deducted today.
Not going through each one, but just as an example of your fraudulent presentation:

Quote:
For years beginning after December 31, 2012, you may deduct only the amount by which your total medical expenses exceed 10% of your adjusted gross income
It is certainly a limited deduction. In 1944, according to the instructions, medical and dental could be deducted up to a total of about $17k (2014 dollars) for one exemption, and about $34k (2014 dollars) if you claimed more than one exemption. First though you would have to subtract reimbursements and insurance, then subtract 5% of your total claimed income (line 5); the rest could be calculated as a deduction. OMG SOCIALIZED MEDICINE!

Also, tax fight!:catfight:
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  #1217  
Old 08-12-2014, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
For years beginning after December 31, 2012, you may deduct only the amount by which your total medical expenses exceed 10% of your adjusted gross income
It is certainly a limited deduction. In 1944, according to the instructions, medical and dental could be deducted up to a total of about $17k (2014 dollars) for one exemption, and about $34k (2014 dollars) if you claimed more than one exemption.
Presuming your conversions are correct, that is still way better than having to spend 10% of your income *before* you can claim a deduction.

Then you got a deduction until you reached a limit.

Now you get a deduction after you spend so much.

That is some regressive taxation.
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  #1218  
Old 08-12-2014, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
Quote:
For years beginning after December 31, 2012, you may deduct only the amount by which your total medical expenses exceed 10% of your adjusted gross income
It is certainly a limited deduction. In 1944, according to the instructions, medical and dental could be deducted up to a total of about $17k (2014 dollars) for one exemption, and about $34k (2014 dollars) if you claimed more than one exemption. First though you would have to subtract reimbursements and insurance, then subtract 5% of your total claimed income (line 5); the rest could be calculated as a deduction.
Presuming your conversions are correct, that is still way better than having to spend 10% of your income *before* you can claim a deduction.

Then you got a deduction until you reached a limit.

Now you get a deduction after you spend so much.
No, that's inaccurate. I added back in and bolded the part you left out.
1944: you would have to spend 5% of your income before claiming a deduction, which then caps at $17k or $34k, depending on the number of exemptions you claim.
2014: you would have to spend 10% of your income before claiming a deduction, which then has no cap.

So if we apply the 1944 tax code today, then it would be useful for middle coverage. A person making $50k would pay $2,500 in costs not covered by insurance out-of-pocket, then have $17k covered maximum. That's not horrible, as long as you don't require more care than that cap. It is definitely not great for catastrophic health care, emergency care, or chronic care issues.
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  #1219  
Old 08-12-2014, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

I see, but do note that medical insurance is included. Still a much better deal in 1944. You also need to consider the cost of medical care in 1944.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

Not sure what you mean by medical insurance is included.

And actually I don't need to consider the cost of medical care in 1944 since we're not traveling back in time to 1944 to live under that tax code; we're discussing how we differ in reasons for believing the 1944 tax code would be a desirable replacement in 2014. And we haven't even delved into the corporate tax code yet!
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  #1221  
Old 08-13-2014, 06:02 AM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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lol, I got them from the 1944 1040 instructions.
Of course you did, poptart.
Of course you did. :pat:

The fact that the claims you're making are the same ones the author in the article is making - that has nothing to do with it, right?

Quote:
You can find it @irs.gov
And the fact that the comparison year in the article I linked (1944) is the exact same year that you claim you got from irs.gov (1944) --- well, that's just another amazing coincidence, amirite? :chin:
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  #1222  
Old 08-14-2014, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

You are an idiot, the topic is the 1944 tax.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites View Post
Not sure what you mean by medical insurance is included.

And actually I don't need to consider the cost of medical care in 1944 since we're not traveling back in time to 1944 to live under that tax code; we're discussing how we differ in reasons for believing the 1944 tax code would be a desirable replacement in 2014. And we haven't even delved into the corporate tax code yet!
Oh good, then all the taxes on technologies that did not exist in 1944 would not exist on the technologies we have today.

Yep, once again, people would be paying less tax under the 1944 tax code today.
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Old 08-14-2014, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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Originally Posted by Dingfod View Post
I remember deducting personal loan interest back in the early 80s, the first time I had enough income to file long form. Again, thanks to Ronald Wilson Reagan, the middle class took a big hit in order to lower the tax rates on the wealthy.
I just remembered the reason I had to file long form in 1982, 1983, and 1984. It wasn't because of how much income or how many deductions I had, it was so I could take advantage of a tax break called income averaging. Back then, if you had a large rise in income, you could spread the increase out over three previous years, pay taxes on it at a lower tax rate. My income had increased about 90% from 1981 to 1982, then continued to be that high in the subsequent two years. Adjusted for inflation, I was making the same kind of money back then that I do now, and I had no state income tax because I lived and worked in Wyoming. If I recall correctly, and I probably do, my total federal income tax rate was around 10% despite having income that occasionally put me in the 50% marginal tax rate. Even though I make the same amount after adjusting for inflation as I did then, I pay barely more now as a percentage despite getting to deduct $14,000 per year in mortgage interest. That's because my wife works now and she didn't back then.
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  #1225  
Old 08-14-2014, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Yo, top 1%: shut the fuck up

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...people would be paying less tax under the 1944 tax code today.
Ah, people!

Did you hear about the new law that requires left-handed infielders to sing show tunes?

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:drudgesiren:People now required by law to sing show tunes:drudgesiren:
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  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


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