Fucking education! How does it work?

[Dingfod]

I see.

[LadyShea]

What Kiddo's been doing is concentrating on making 10 and basic addition/subtraction combos up to 20. So they might do flash cards with like 5+2 and 5-2 etc. They might be assigned to find 5 ways, using addition/subtraction, to get to a certain number, or write all the addition combos that add up to a specific number.

When they add or subtract large numbers they break them down into doubles, "make 10" combos, and add the ones according to what they have memorized.

So 64 + 78 is something like
10+10+10+10+10+10+4 + 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+8
4+8 = 10+2

14 10's plus 2 = 142

I OTOH would have vertically stacked those and "carried the 1". I never really learned the relationship between the numbers and have been counting on my fingers a lot, still, for 35 years

It's so different than the formulaic way I learned math I have a hard time helping him with his homework. I kinda wished I had learned the way he is, because it makes more sense to me.

[lisarea]

A few years back, I was at lunch with my brothers, both of whom have advanced math degrees and work in mathy type fields. When the check came, they made me figure the tip, because they both hate arithmetic. And I was mad at them, because I hate it too.

And really, I can't remember the last time I needed to do something like that that I didn't have some kind of calculator right there. I've also long had this philosophy that memorization is almost never useful. Maybe a couple of important phone numbers and some medical emergency protocols or something, but almost everything else you can just look up when you need it. If you look the same thing up a bunch of times, you'll probably start remembering it organically. If you don't, then PHEW GOOD THING I DIDN'T MEMORIZE THAT STUPID THING I BARELY EVER NEED TO KNOW.

I just can't think of a single emergency situation in which I would need to do a bunch of arithmetic that quickly. It just seems weird that they spend so much time on that stuff when it has so little use, and seems to turn people off from the concept of math. You're probably about as likely to need to do arithmetic in your head as you are to need to perform an emergency tracheotomy or compose a message in Morse code.

So yeah. The more I think about it, the more I'm coming around to Supernintendo Benezet's argument.

[Ari]

Current education always seems to be 100 years behind reality.
Here's a bunch of Newtonian mechanics, maybe at the end we'll get to General relativity and tell you the framework you learned physics around is bunk.
Here's a bunch of arbitrary anatomical names to memorize, maybe one day we will get around to explaining how they work together.
How else will you use a slide rule and log table if you can't speed recite your times tables?

[Dingfod]

That's weird, I do math problems in my head while I'm driving just so I won't be bored, you know, stuff like mpg on my last tank of gas and if I tipped too much at the donut shop. In my defense, the donut shop lady is kind of cute and really friendly.

[Ensign Steve]

I do calculus on my runs, mostly figuring out the first and second derivatives of the hills I'm running on. That way I can cheer myself up with thoughts like, "I may still be running up hill after a solid mile, but I'm doing it less so."

[thedoc]

There are 3 kinds of people in the world.

Those who are good at math,

And those who are not.

[LadyShea]

I think learning that numbers have relationships to things and each other, and can be used to measure and estimate and imagine stuff, is probably good. How far away is X, and how much time does Y take? How much of whatever do we need for the group? How tall is Optimus Prime? Heck, many games we play require basic counting.

That being said, if anyone figures out a good way to explain really big numbers, like for billions of years, or billions of people, to a small child, let me know. Arithmetic doesn't help with that.

[livius drusus]

In Cheaper By The Dozen the father stuck enough sheets of graph paper to the wall to make a giant one thousand by one thousand grid so the kids could actually see a million of something.

[Qingdai]

I like that you also read Cheaper by the Dozen.

[Ari]

In theory a 1080HD screen has a bit over 2 million pixels so all you need is 500 HD TVs stuck to the wall to have a billion pixels.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

That's weird, I do math problems in my head while I'm driving just so I won't be bored, you know, stuff like mpg on my last tank of gas and if I tipped too much at the donut shop. In my defense, the donut shop lady is kind of cute and really friendly.

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

I do calculus on my runs, mostly figuring out the first and second derivatives of the hills I'm running on. That way I can cheer myself up with thoughts like, "I may still be running up hill after a solid mile, but I'm doing it less so."

I do this too, only not the derivatives because I'm not that smart. I do keep a running update in my head of what percentage of a drive or run I've completed. I've learned that communicating this information to any people I happen to be with is rarely appreciated.

Also, lisarea is very smart and I agree with everything she says about memorization being p. much useless most of the time. My weird anecdote is that I could never remember all the formulas we had to use in high school geometry to figure out the areas and volumes of things, so I spent the first half of the time allotted for every test having to rediscover them. I mean, obviously, I wasn't working from scratch, since I had a vague idea what they should be, but I think I ended up understanding them better for having worked them out for myself repeatedly.

[maddog]

Originally Posted by Adam

I do this too, only not the derivatives because I'm not that smart. I do keep a running update in my head of what percentage of a drive or run I've completed. I've learned that communicating this information to any people I happen to be with is rarely appreciated.

Also, lisarea is very smart and I agree with everything she says about memorization being p. much useless most of the time. My weird anecdote is that I could never remember all the formulas we had to use in high school geometry to figure out the areas and volumes of things, so I spent the first half of the time allotted for every test having to rediscover them. I mean, obviously, I wasn't working from scratch, since I had a vague idea what they should be, but I think I ended up understanding them better for having worked them out for myself repeatedly.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You guys that can do stuff in your head!

An occupational hazard for me is reading things in trial transcripts ... you never know what someone is going to say that will stick with you. I remember this one expert witness testifying, I don't remember if it was a medical expert, engineering expert, accident reconstruction, or whatever, but one bit of testimony went like this:

attorney
So, Expert, how many of such-and-such procedure have you seen/done?
expert
Quite a few.
attorney
More than you can count?
expert
No, I can count pretty well.

One reason this stuck with me and is so hilarious is that I am constantly reminded that I, personally, canNOT count very well. I can't do calculus problems on my runs, the best I can do is simply count, and you would not believe how frequently I miscount or lose count (I basically just count steps, like one, two, three, one; one, two, three, two, etc., on left foot strikes). At the studio with my trainer, I very often can't accurately count the number of reps he has me doing, and I can't even count to four, a lot of the time; I have to keep asking, is that set two or set three?

Srsly, my hat's off to anybody that can do calculations or even calculus in their heads while doing something else.

#2977

[maddog]

Originally Posted by thedoc

There are 3 kinds of people in the world.

Those who are good at math,

And those who are not.

There are two kinds of people in the world.

Those who are able to extrapolate from incomplete data.

#2978

[lisarea]

The guy actually talks about estimating and measuring and stuff in the paper. The experiment was mostly just introducing simple mathematical concepts into their language classes as they come up, and not having a discrete 'math class' that still seems to consist mostly of drilling kids with simple arithmetic operations. There are enough real life examples in other subjects to introduce kids to the problem solving process that they need to do math without having to switch into 'math mode,' where they're just applying prescriptive models to made up, totally unrealistic problems.

I mean, look at this fourth grade multiplication worksheet. I just picked it at random.

Multiplication Printable Worksheets 4th Grade - Paul's House

What is the point of that? TORTURE is what it is. And then think about grading it. What does it tell you about a kid if they get most of them right but miss a bunch? I mean, obviously, if they're getting some of them right, they know how to do multiplication. The missed answers mean they are distracted because they're being forced to do a bunch of tedious and pretty much identical arithmetic exercises. That assignment consists entirely of doing the same exact operation over and over and over and over. Just looking at that thing makes me want to grab a box of Coco Puffs and run away from home.

And no, putting them in a circle, adding a picture of a gecko, and calling it "FUN" like in the one below it doesn't make it better. It just makes it insulting.

Most people do not need to know how to multiply really fast on the fly. It's not like it's a martial art or something where you have to have it in muscle memory. If you do end up needing to do a lot of simple arithmetic in some function later in life, you will pick it up naturally then. There is no need to drill that into kids' heads at such a young age. It's boring and tedious and silly, and it just makes kids think they hate math before they even know what math is.

I keep trying to think of analogies. It's like making kids practice swiping a keycard or retrieving voicemail for an hour a day for a couple of months in case someday, they need to work in an office. It's like making them practice searching source code by hand, on paper, for debugging before they know what programming or debugging is. It's a pointless little task that almost everyone automates anyway, and they don't even know what it's for yet. It's just a bunch of bullshit.

(Also, I'm pretty sure I've recommended it here before, but this is an actual math book suitable for children that a lot of people swear by. The new edition is like $100, but you can get older ones way cheaper. We had probably the first edition.)

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Qingdai

I like that you also read Cheaper by the Dozen.

It's one of my all-time favorites. It's hilarious and sweet and full of great personalities, of course, but it's the dynamics of the gigantic family that most fascinate me. It might as well be science fiction to me as an only child.

[thedoc]

Originally Posted by maddog

There are two kinds of people in the world.

Those who are able to extrapolate from incomplete data.

#2978

Just curious, do you know anyone who has a complete set of data on anything?

And what does #2978 mean?

[maddog]

Originally Posted by thedoc

Just curious, do you know anyone who has a complete set of data on anything?

possibly. For example, some years I am pretty sure I have a complete list of online transactions I owe use tax on.

ETA: I liked your joke, btw. That's what reminded me of the other one.

#2979

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by thedoc

And what does #2978 mean?

she's counting.

[lisarea]

I've been seeing people talking about STEM vs. humanities a lot lately, but this Metafilter post is especially good for tying things together. I was just going to post the first link, but there's other good stuff there, too.

[Clutch Munny]

Contrarian here. You can't calculator everything all the time. An ability to ballpark non-obvious arithmetic is what lets you know when to dig out your TI programmable or (if you're lisarea) your wristwatch calculator and check some claim or figures. But ballparking requires some general facility with the multiplication table and basic factoring and suchlike and so forth.

[Dingfod]

One of the math things my 4th grader grandson is being taught this year is estimating (ballparking?). Interesting. I can do it, but don't remember it being taught in school.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Clutch Munny

Contrarian here. You can't calculator everything all the time. An ability to ballpark non-obvious arithmetic is what lets you know when to dig out your TI programmable or (if you're lisarea) your wristwatch calculator and check some claim or figures. But ballparking requires some general facility with the multiplication table and basic factoring and suchlike and so forth.

I actually agree, though. I just don't think that you need to memorize a bunch of stuff or go home every night and do arithmetic for an hour to develop that skill. I think you pick it up organically in proportion to how often you need to do that sort of thing. Just being a regular grownup will eventually give you some idea of what sort of numbers are plausible for various situations like sales taxes and interest and other simple arithmetic stuff, like if you're American, you'll eventually learn to calculate 120% or thereabouts in your head (or 115% if you're a piker).

PS I DON'T have a calculator watch, though. I require my watch to have a primary analog display and to sync to the atomic clock, and I haven't found one like that that also has a calculator. If you make me a nice one, though, I promise I will use it.

VM is also working on a little project for me right now, so you guys should race to see who finishes first.

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by lisarea

I think you pick it up organically in proportion to how often you need to do that sort of thing.

I think you pick it up organically in proportion to how often you need to. I doubt* that people in general do. It's like baseball - you're good at that too!

No, I don't actually know that last bit. But it is like baseball - the underlying fitness and skills you need to do it well once a week are not something that you get just by doing it once a week.

Also, when you need to be doing some quick multiplication and factoring, in at least some sense of need, isn't the same as when you think you need to. Because if it's mostly a closed book to you, then you'll miss lots of times when should be doing it. Making it habitual and more like effortless is one way of closing that gap.

*Meaning literally. I doubt it. But I don't know the opposite.

[Dingfod]

Casio Data Bank

Edit: here's one for sale on ebay.