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  #7901  
Old 12-17-2017, 12:39 AM
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He was referring to ethical approval of the biopsies which he was given. Brian Deer conveniently failed to provide the letter to the GMC.
:lolwut:

peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about. Why would Brian Deer have to prove this to the GMC? Wakefield could give it to the GMC. The ethics committee could give it to the GMC.

But even if they all did that, it would not change the fact that Andy Wakefield unethically experimented on children.
Because Deer was trying to frame Dr. Wakefield.
So why couldn't Andy Wakefield provide this himself? Or the ethics committee? Like, Wakefield was afforded the opportunity to present evidence, you know. And the ethics committee approval that he did receive, for other research, was part of the evidence before the GMC. (FYI, he also did not comply with the conditions of the ethics committee's approval.) Brian Deer was not a party to the GMC proceedings.

peacegirl, how do you even think this worked?
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In the effort to do this he omitted pertinent correspondence that took place a year before. You can try to define what Wakefield did as a crime, but he did not experiment on children the way you want people to believe.
Yes, he unethically experimented on children. That is beyond all doubt.

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Dr Wakefield caused blood to be taken from a group of children for research purposes at a birthday party, which the Panel found to be an inappropriate social setting. He behaved unethically in failing to seek Ethics Committee approval; he showed callous disregard for any distress or pain the children might suffer, and he paid the children £5 reward for giving their blood. He then described the episode in humorous terms at a public presentation and expressed an intention to repeat his conduct. When giving evidence to the Panel, Dr Wakefield expressed some regret regarding his remarks. The Panel was concerned at Dr Wakefield’s apparent lack of serious consideration to the relevant ethical issues and the abuse of his position of trust as a medical practitioner with regard to his conduct in causing the blood to be taken. The Panel concluded that his conduct brought the medical profession into disrepute.
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Shame on you Chuck for mischaracterizing this man.
Thou shall not blame, peacegirl. Thou shall not blame.
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  #7902  
Old 12-17-2017, 10:01 AM
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He was referring to ethical approval of the biopsies which he was given. Brian Deer conveniently failed to provide the letter to the GMC.
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Originally Posted by “Chuck”
:lolwut:

peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about. Why would Brian Deer have to prove this to the GMC? Wakefield could give it to the GMC. The ethics committee could give it to the GMC.

But even if they all did that, it would not change the fact that Andy Wakefield unethically experimented on children.
I don’t know all of the details. All I know is that he got approval for the biopsies. If you want to challenge that, then find out before rushing to judgment.
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Originally Posted by “Chuck”
So why couldn't Andy Wakefield provide this himself? Or the ethics committee? Like, Wakefield was afforded the opportunity to present evidence, you know. And the ethics committee approval that he did receive, for other research, was part of the evidence before the GMC. (FYI, he also did not comply with the conditions of the ethics committee's approval.) Brian Deer was not a party to the GMC proceedings.

peacegirl, how do you even think this worked?
He got ethical approval for the biopsies.
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In the effort to do this he omitted pertinent correspondence that took place a year before. You can try to define what Wakefield did as a crime, but he did not experiment on children the way you want people to believe.
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Originally Posted by “Chuck”
Yes, he unethically experimented on children. That is beyond all doubt.
We’ve been over this. It was not an experiment just because he drew blood from healthy children for comparison. You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele. He made a misstep, is all, and you and Brian Deer have turned it into a witch hunt in order to silence him. What makes it easy is that you have Big Pharma — an institution that has a huge financial stake in the development of more and more vaccines — on your side. That’s why you harp on it. You have nothing else.

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Dr Wakefield caused blood to be taken from a group of children for research purposes at a birthday party, which the Panel found to be an inappropriate social setting. He behaved unethically in failing to seek Ethics Committee approval; he showed callous disregard for any distress or pain the children might suffer, and he paid the children £5 reward for giving their blood. He then described the episode in humorous terms at a public presentation and expressed an intention to repeat his conduct. When giving evidence to the Panel, Dr Wakefield expressed some regret regarding his remarks. The Panel was concerned at Dr Wakefield’s apparent lack of serious consideration to the relevant ethical issues and the abuse of his position of trust as a medical practitioner with regard to his conduct in causing the blood to be taken. The Panel concluded that his conduct brought the medical profession into disrepute.
So they were more interested in their own reputation than whether Wakefield had something of vital importance to share beyond this minor infraction? :glare:
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Shame on you Chuck for mischaracterizing this man.
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Originally Posted by “Chuck”
Thou shall not blame, peacegirl. Thou shall not blame.
Your understanding of the book is zero. You are smearing this man’s name and I will defend him. I’m just glad that he didn’t crack from the pressure and is continuing his valuable work in the states.
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Last edited by peacegirl; 12-17-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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  #7903  
Old 12-17-2017, 03:21 PM
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Default Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

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I donít know all of the details.
:lol: NO WAY
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
He got ethical approval for the biopsies.
Which suggests he knew his research on children required independent ethical oversight, and that he knew how to seek independent ethical oversight.

He just didn't bother with it when he was unethically experimenting on children.

By the way, he obtained ethical approval for the biopsies by misleading the ethics committee when he said that the invasive procedures he was performing on children were clinically indicated. That wasn't true. He was as much a liar and a fraud in front of the ethics committee as he is now. He also lied about having ethics approval in the Lancet publication (the one where he also lied about not having any conflicts of interests to disclose). He's a liar and a fraud.
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Weíve been over this. It was not an experiment just because he drew blood from healthy children for comparison.
Yes, peacegirl, it was, in every single canon of research ethics. I have shown them to you, even if you can't see them because of your retard blinders. Taking blood from a human for research purposes and without therapeutic intent constitutes medical research and required independent ethical oversight. See the Declaration of Helsinki. This is hardly new, see Royal College of Physicians of London, Committee on the Supervision of the Ethics of Clinical Investigations in Institutions, July 1967. See also, Belmont Report.

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You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
I guess to the extent that both were unethical quacks who experimented on children, your comparison of Wakefield to Mengele holds, yes.

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He made a misstep, is all, and you and Brian Deer have turned it into a witch hunt in order to silence him. What makes it easy is that you have Big Pharma (who are using him as an example to never follow in his footsteps by going against big corporations who have a HUGE financial stake in vaccines) on your side. Thatís why you harp it. You have nothing else.
Actually, peacegirl, you make it easy. You have literally no command or understanding of any facts, and this makes it pretty easy to demonstrate just how egregiously unethical his medical experimentation on children was.

And here you are defending Big Pharma, saying Big Pharma shouldn't have to seek ethics approval when experimenting on children, and doctors shouldn't have to disclose money they've gotten from Big Pharma.

peacegirl, this is what I meant when I told you that blindly defending Andy Wakefield makes you look stupid and immoral both at the same time.
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Your understanding of the book is zero.
peacegirl, I am the true steward of the Authentic Text. I interpret the Authentic Text as written by the Author and published in his lifetime, and i shall do so without blame from you.

Last edited by ChuckF; 12-17-2017 at 03:36 PM.
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  #7904  
Old 12-17-2017, 03:56 PM
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I don’t know all of the details.
:lol: NO WAY
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
He got ethical approval for the biopsies.
Which suggests he knew his research on children required independent ethical oversight, and that he knew how to seek independent ethical oversight.

He just didn't bother with it when he was unethically experimenting on children.
You will believe what you desire to believe. And you desire to believe that Wakefield is guilty of a terrible breach of ethical behavior; such a terrible breach that he had to be stripped of his license. That's a matter of debate even after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
By the way, he obtained ethical approval for the biopsies by misleading the ethics committee when he said that the invasive procedures he was performing on children were clinically indicated. That wasn't true. He was as much a liar and a fraud in front of the ethics committee as he is now. He also lied about having ethics approval in the Lancet publication (the one where he also lied about not having any conflicts of interests to disclose). He's a liar and a fraud.
Are you related to Brian Deer? Just asking. You are so out of line it would be humorous if it wasn't so serious.
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We’ve been over this. It was not an experiment just because he drew blood from healthy children for comparison.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Yes, peacegirl, it was, in every single canon of research ethics. I have shown them to you, even if you can't see them because of your retard blinders.
Look at yourself Chuck. You have blinders on that can't be peeled off.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
Taking blood from a human for research purposes and without therapeutic intent constitutes medical research and required independent ethical oversight. See the Declaration of Helsinki. This is hardly new, see Royal College of Physicians of London, Committee on the Supervision of the Ethics of Clinical Investigations in Institutions, July 1967. See also, Belmont Report.
You can be as literal as you want, but truth be told he did not experiment on children in the way you are making it out to be. You know exactly what you're doing Chuck.

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You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
I guess to the extent that both were unethical quacks who experimented on children, your comparison of Wakefield to Mengele holds, yes.
You're out the frickin door Chuck! People, did you hear that? He compares Wakefield to Josef Mengele! He has no filter. :kookoo:

Quote:
He made a misstep, is all, and you and Brian Deer have turned it into a witch hunt in order to silence him. What makes it easy is that you have Big Pharma (who are using him as an example to never follow in his footsteps by going against big corporations who have a HUGE financial stake in vaccines) on your side. That’s why you harp it. You have nothing else.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Actually, peacegirl, you make it easy. You have literally no command or understanding of any facts, and this makes it pretty easy to demonstrate just how egregiously unethical his medical experimentation on children was.
Egregious? You're nuts Chuck. He is saving lives, but you won't have it because it destroys your entire justification for attacking this doctor. You cannot hurt someone without a justification. You should know that from the book. But you don't because you're a f#*$*A# fraud.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
And here you are defending Big Pharma, saying Big Pharma shouldn't have to seek ethics approval when experimenting on children, and doctors shouldn't have to disclose money they've gotten from Big Pharma.
I didn't say that. Stop putting words in my mouth Chuck. But to compare Dr. Wakefield With Josef Mengele, that's one for the books. :biglaugh:

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Originally Posted by Chuck
peacegirl, this is what I meant when I told you that blindly defending Andy Wakefield makes you look stupid and immoral both at the same time.
Immoral? And what about you trying to compare Dr. Wakefield with Josef Mengele. OMG! You've lost all credibility with anyone who hears what you just said.
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Your understanding of the book is zero.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
peacegirl, I am the true steward of the Authentic Text. I interpret the Authentic Text as written by the Author and published in his lifetime, and i shall do so without blame from you.
You are a steward of nothing let alone this book. But you have ruined any further discussion due to your big fat ego!
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  #7905  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Taking blood from a human for research purposes and without therapeutic intent constitutes medical research and required independent ethical oversight. See the Declaration of Helsinki. This is hardly new, see Royal College of Physicians of London, Committee on the Supervision of the Ethics of Clinical Investigations in Institutions, July 1967. See also, Belmont Report.
You can be as literal as you want, but truth be told he did not experiment on children in the way you are making it out to be. You know exactly what you're doing Chuck.
Yes, his medical experimentation on children was literally unethical.

By the way, peacegirl: you're right. I do know exactly what I'm doing. I deal with various dimensions medical research ethics pretty much every single working day. It's actually kind of an area of expertise. Today is Sunday. On Friday I had ethics approval and conflict of interest disclosure matters come across my desk. Probably will tomorrow too.
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You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
I guess to the extent that both were unethical quacks who experimented on children, your comparison of Wakefield to Mengele holds, yes.
You're out the frickin door Chuck! People, did you hear that? He compares Wakefield to Mengele! He has no filter to make a major distinction. :kooky:
peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about? You introduced the comparison between Wakefield and Mengele. Like two posts ago.

I don't know why you did that. I kinda figured it was just because you really like invoking Nazis? :lol:
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You are a steward of nothing let alone this book, but you have precluded any further discussion thanks to your big fat ego.
:chin: Hmm, let's put a pin in this one for a bit. Look for an exciting announcement soon.
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  #7906  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Taking blood from a human for research purposes and without therapeutic intent constitutes medical research and required independent ethical oversight. See the Declaration of Helsinki. This is hardly new, see Royal College of Physicians of London, Committee on the Supervision of the Ethics of Clinical Investigations in Institutions, July 1967. See also, Belmont Report.
Wakefield was doing research after hearing the parents' account of what happened to their children. Therapeutic intent could not come before the research, now could it? You are making no sense. Wakefield was anything but a Mengele. You are still trying to justify why it was right to oust Wakefield otherwise you couldn't come up with a decent argument. Like everyone else in the industry, you don't like his paper because it brings into question what you hold so dear...the belief in the benefit of all vaccines.
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You can be as literal as you want, but truth be told he did not experiment on children in the way you are making it out to be. You know exactly what you're doing Chuck.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Yes, his medical experimentation on children was literally unethical.
Repeat it again Chuck. Maybe you'll believe your own fabrications with enough repetition. You are the product of living and breathing legalese. Everything is seen through that filter, which limits you.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
By the way, peacegirl: you're right. I do know exactly what I'm doing. I deal with various dimensions medical research ethics pretty much every single working day. It's actually kind of an area of expertise. Today is Sunday. On Friday I had ethics approval and conflict of interest disclosure matters come across my desk. Probably will tomorrow too.
You're so enamored by your own "qualifications" that you've become the kind of person you despise in others.
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
I guess to the extent that both were unethical quacks who experimented on children, your comparison of Wakefield to Mengele holds, yes.
Quote:
You're out the frickin door Chuck! People, did you hear that? He compares Wakefield to Mengele! He has no filter to make a major distinction. :kooky:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
peacegirl, what the fuck are you even talking about? You introduced the comparison between Wakefield and Mengele. Like two posts ago.

I don't know why you did that. I kinda figured it was just because you really like invoking Nazis? :lol:
Shut the *#$* up Chuck. I said you have no filter in that you are comparing what Wakefield did to someone like Mengele. You actually agreed there's no difference. :eek:
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You are a steward of nothing let alone this book, but you have precluded any further discussion thanks to your big fat ego.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
:chin: Hmm, let's put a pin in this one for a bit. Look for an exciting announcement soon.
I would never go back to that thread thanks to you. You did me a favor actually.
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Last edited by peacegirl; 12-17-2017 at 04:45 PM.
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  #7907  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:27 PM
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Hey peacegirl, what's going on with those space probes? Have you figured it out yet?
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  #7908  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:29 PM
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Wakefield was doing research.
I know, peacegirl! That's why he should have obtained independent ethical oversight - which he failed to do. And that's why his experiments on children were unethical.
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Shut the *#$* up Chuck. I said you have no filter in that you are comparing what Wakefield did to someone like Mengele. You actually agreed there's no difference. :eek:
You brought up the comparison of Wakefield with Mengele, peacegirl:
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You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
But I do agree that to the extent both conducted unethical medical research on children, your comparison is apt.

Of course, Menegele's medical research on children happened before the promulgation of the various canons of ethical research and implementing rules that Wakefield ignored when conducting his own unethical experiments on children. In many ways, Mengele's unethical research was an important reason for the promulgation of such canons and rules in the second half of the century.

Wakefield simply failed to acknowledge that regulatory and moral progress, and decided instead to apply the ethics of Mengele and proceed with his unethical experiments on children.

Last edited by ChuckF; 12-17-2017 at 04:40 PM.
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  #7909  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:46 PM
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Hey peacegirl, what's going on with those space probes? Have you figured it out yet?
It's not necessary to prove that Lessans was right about the eyes. Please don't bring this up again because I won't answer.
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  #7910  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:59 PM
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Wakefield was doing research.
I know, peacegirl! That's why he should have obtained independent ethical oversight - which he failed to do. And that's why his experiments on children were unethical.
Unethical by the medical definition, not by the definition most lay people go by. You are having difficulty separating the two meanings, and why it sounds utterly disgusting to so many.
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Shut the *#$* up Chuck. I said you have no filter in that you are comparing what Wakefield did to someone like Mengele. You actually agreed there's no difference. :eek:
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Originally Posted by Chuck
You brought up the comparison of Wakefield with Mengele, peacegirl:
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
You are using the definition of ethical to make it appear that his actions were comparable to Josef Mengele.
Who cares who brought it up? The fact that you agreed there's no difference is what is so shocking. You can't seem to differentiate a small infraction (which hurt no one) from pure torture of children. What is wrong with you Chuck?
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Originally Posted by Chuck
But I do agree that to the extent both conducted unethical medical research on children, your comparison is apt.
No, it is not apt. "To the extent that both conducted unethical medical research on children" is not enough to compare the two. I think deep down you know you're wrong, but you would never admit it to anyone, even to yourself.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
Of course, Menegele's medical research on children happened before the promulgation of the various canons of ethical research and implementing rules that Wakefield ignored when conducting his own unethical experiments on children. In many ways, Mengele's unethical research was an important reason for the promulgation of such canons and rules in the second half of the century.
That's all well and good, but no matter how you slice it Chuck, you cannot compare taking a blood sample at a birthday party with the torture of children during World War II.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
Wakefield simply failed to acknowledge that regulatory and moral progress, and decided instead to apply the ethics of Mengele and proceed with his unethical experiments on children.
You will never admit you are wrong, 100% wrong!
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  #7911  
Old 12-17-2017, 05:02 PM
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I won't answer.
No shit!
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  #7912  
Old 12-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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Wakefield was doing research.
I know, peacegirl! That's why he should have obtained independent ethical oversight - which he failed to do. And that's why his experiments on children were unethical.
Unethical by the medical definition, not by the definition most lay people go by. You are having difficulty separating the two meanings, and why it sounds utterly disgusting to so many.
:shrug: Morally normal people consider unethical medical experimentation on children to be disgusting, peacegirl. That's a big reason why we have the rules that Andy Wakefield ignored when he conducted unethical medical experiments on children.

I think you should also find unethical experiments on children to be disgusting, peacegirl.

(n.b. peacegirl, this is precisely why I have told you that defending Andy Wakefield requires you to appear both ignorant and immoral at the same time - do you understand that yet?)
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But I do agree that to the extent both conducted unethical medical research on children, your comparison is apt.
No, it is not apt.
peacegirl, why did you make the comparison if you don't think it's apt?
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That's all well and good, but no matter how you slice it Chuck, you cannot compare taking a blood sample at a birthday party with the torture of children during World War II.
To the extent that they are both unethical medical experiments on children conducted without any independent ethical oversight, they are comparable - peacegirl, I thought this was your point in comparing Wakefield with Mengele in the first place.
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  #7913  
Old 12-17-2017, 05:09 PM
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Wakefield was doing research.
I know, peacegirl! That's why he should have obtained independent ethical oversight - which he failed to do. And that's why his experiments on children were unethical.
Unethical by the medical definition, not by the definition most lay people go by. You are having difficulty separating the two meanings, and why it sounds utterly disgusting to so many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
:shrug: Morally normal people consider unethical medical experimentation on children to be disgusting, peacegirl.

That's a big reason why we have the rules that Andy Wakefield ignored when he conducted unethical medical experiments on children.

I think you should also find unethical experiments on children to be disgusting, peacegirl.

(n.b. peacegirl, this is precisely why I have told you that defending Andy Wakefield requires you to appear both ignorant and immoral at the same time - do you understand that yet?)
He was ignorant of the rules; he was not immoral. Morality refers to things that are right, immorality has to do with things that are wrong — like stealing, lying, and murdering. According to the medical definition, he breached the rules but he hurt no one. Mengele hurt people so what he did was unethical, even if it was acceptable during that time. So what you are saying is that if a person gets permission from the ethics commission but the patient dies due to a mistake would be off the hook? But taking blood samples at a party where no one gets hurt would be unethical only because he didn't get the right permission? There's a lot wrong with this picture. That being said, I understand why they have ethical oversight, but this truly is a witch hunt for reasons that have nothing to do with ethics.

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Originally Posted by Chuck
But I do agree that to the extent both conducted unethical medical research on children, your comparison is apt.
Quote:
No, it is not apt.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
peacegirl, why did you make the comparison if you don't think it's apt?
I brought it up because you cannot seem to differentiate between levels of improper conduct. You throw every one into the same pot. Throwing a drug dealer into prison without a chance for parole should not receive the same punishment as a serial murderer.
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:12 PM
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I brought it up because you cannot seem to make a differentiation between levels of improper conduct. You throw every one into the same pot. Throwing a drug dealer into prison without a chance for parole should not receive the same punishment as a serial murderer.
Ok. So Andy Wakefield is like a drug dealer?
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:29 PM
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dupe
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Parents, do your due diligence on vaccination! There are serious risks!!

peacegirl, so far today you have compared Andy Wakefield to a drug dealer and Josef Mengele.

peacegirl, do you think this is a sign that your attempt to defend Andy Wakefield's unethical experimentation on children is going well?
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  #7917  
Old 12-17-2017, 05:32 PM
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I brought it up because you cannot seem to make a differentiation between levels of improper conduct. You throw every one into the same pot. Throwing a drug dealer into prison without a chance for parole should not receive the same punishment as a serial murderer.
Ok. So Andy Wakefield is like a drug dealer?
WTF!
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:36 PM
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He was ignorant of the rules;
peacegirl, you've demonstrated that to be untrue - he obviously sought and obtained (albeit on false pretenses, as he misled the ethics committee) ethical approval to perform certain biopsies. So he was aware that his research on children required independent ethical oversight, and he knew how to obtain it. He just chose to apply the ethics of Mengele (thanks for this, peacegirl!) and conduct research on children without any independent ethical oversight.

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So what you are saying is that if a person gets permission from the ethics commission but the patient dies due to a mistake would be off the hook?
No - in fact, this type of exculpatory provision is expressly excluded by the regulatory scheme (for example, see 21 CFR 50.20). I didn't say anything like this anywhere, but it is easy enough to dismiss.
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But taking blood samples at a party where no one gets hurt would be unethical only because he didn't get the right permission?
Yes, because he was unethically experimenting on children. That is wrong, peacegirl.

But peacegirl, to be clear - you do not think Big Pharma should need to seek independent ethics approval if they collect blood samples from children at birthday parties?
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:37 PM
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peacegirl, so far today you have compared Andy Wakefield to a drug dealer and Josef Mengele.

peacegirl, do you think this is a sign that your attempt to defend Andy Wakefield's unethical experimentation on children is going well?
It is going very well. Not the same for you Chuck. Anyone who reads this thread will see very quickly that you're losing the debate. :giggle: In the end, it really doesn't matter what you think or how you view this man. Dr. Wakefield is making a difference and will continue to do so. People are listening. You and your cronies have not silenced him, and never will.
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:50 PM
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He was ignorant of the rules;
peacegirl, you've demonstrated that to be untrue - he obviously sought and obtained (albeit on false pretenses, as he misled the ethics committee) ethical approval to perform certain biopsies. So he was aware that his research on children required independent ethical oversight, and he knew how to obtain it. He just chose to apply the ethics of Mengele (thanks for this, peacegirl!) and conduct research on children without any independent ethical oversight.
It's a matter of debate whether he knew and ignored the rules, or whether he was ignorant of the rules. What I gathered was that he did get ethical approval from the ethics committee for the biopsies. You can compare him to Mengele all you want, because you're going by the book. But in actuality, Wakefield hurt no one. He did not experiment on children by taking blood samples. You are using a technicality to try to make your case, but life is more than technicalities. It's amazing to me how narrow your thinking is.

Quote:
So what you are saying is that if a person gets permission from the ethics commission but the patient dies due to a mistake would be off the hook?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
No - in fact, this type of exculpatory provision is expressly excluded by the regulatory scheme (for example, see 21 CFR 50.20). I didn't say anything like this anywhere, but it is easy enough to dismiss.
I'm glad.
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But taking blood samples at a party where no one gets hurt would be unethical only because he didn't get the right permission?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
Yes, because he was unethically experimenting on children. That is wrong, peacegirl.
He used blood samples to compare sick children with well children. Technically, he didn't use the right protocol because he did not get ethical approval. But you have taken it too far. He did not experiment on those children. Sorry, but I don't call getting a blood sample with the parent's consent -- medical experimentation. You are trying very very hard to justify your position, which is why you won't budge even though you know I'm right. :laugh:

Unethical human experimentation in the United States describes numerous experiments performed on human test subjects in the United States that have been considered unethical, and were often performed illegally, without the knowledge, consent, or informed consent of the test subjects. Such tests have occurred throughout American history, but particularly in the 20th century.

The experiments include: the exposure of people to chemical and biological weapons (including infection of people with deadly or debilitating diseases), human radiation experiments, injection of people with toxic and radioactive chemicals, surgical experiments, interrogation and torture experiments, tests involving mind-altering substances, and a wide variety of others. Many of these tests were performed on children,[1] the sick, and mentally disabled individuals, often under the guise of "medical treatment". In many of the studies, a large portion of the subjects were poor, racial minorities, or prisoners[citation needed].

Unethical human experimentation in the United States - Wikipedia

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Old 12-17-2017, 05:57 PM
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It's a matter of debate whether he knew and ignored the rules, or whether he was ignorant of the rules.
No, it's not. The GMC already made that determination. At least you recognize he was either fraudulent or ignorant of basic ethics - add this to the comparison with a drug dealer and Mengele.
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You can compare him to Mengele all you want, because you're going by the book.
That was your comparison, peacegirl, but I agree it was apt to the extent that both Wakefield and Mengele unethically experimented on children.
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He did not experiment on children by taking blood samples.
Yes, that was Wakefield unethically experimenting on children.
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Technically, he didn't use the right protocol because he did not get ethical approval.
That is correct - he unethically experimented on those children.
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Sorry, but I don't call getting a blood sample with the parent's consent -- medical experimentation.
That's fine, peacegirl - what you call things is totally immaterial. I mean, I'm sure many of your sources in this very thread do not consider that Josef Mengele did anything wrong. Fortunately, those who defend unethical experimentation on children (whether Wakefield's or Mengele's) do not get a say in it.

peacegirl, I encourage you to actually read this article; have a look at what you're defending.
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:59 PM
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peacegirl, so far today you have compared Andy Wakefield to a drug dealer and Josef Mengele.

peacegirl, do you think this is a sign that your attempt to defend Andy Wakefield's unethical experimentation on children is going well?
It is going very well. Not the same for you Chuck. Anyone who reads this thread will see very quickly that you're losing the debate. :giggle: In the end, it really doesn't matter what you think or how you view this man. Dr. Wakefield is making a difference and will continue to do so. People are listening. You and your cronies have not silenced him, and never will.
So, peacegirl, would you say that Andy Wakefield is more like Josef Mengele or a drug dealer?
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
peacegirl, so far today you have compared Andy Wakefield to a drug dealer and Josef Mengele.

peacegirl, do you think this is a sign that your attempt to defend Andy Wakefield's unethical experimentation on children is going well?
It is going very well. Not the same for you Chuck. Anyone who reads this thread will see very quickly that you're losing the debate. :giggle: In the end, it really doesn't matter what you think or how you view this man. Dr. Wakefield is making a difference and will continue to do so. People are listening. You and your cronies have not silenced him, and never will.
So, peacegirl, would you say that Andy Wakefield is more like Josef Mengele or a drug dealer?
He's an honorable man who made a poor judgment call. Unfortunately, they had to let him go because they needed to set a precedent.
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
peacegirl, so far today you have compared Andy Wakefield to a drug dealer and Josef Mengele.

peacegirl, do you think this is a sign that your attempt to defend Andy Wakefield's unethical experimentation on children is going well?
It is going very well. Not the same for you Chuck. Anyone who reads this thread will see very quickly that you're losing the debate. :giggle: In the end, it really doesn't matter what you think or how you view this man. Dr. Wakefield is making a difference and will continue to do so. People are listening. You and your cronies have not silenced him, and never will.
So, peacegirl, would you say that Andy Wakefield is more like Josef Mengele or a drug dealer?
He's an honorable man who made a poor judgment call.
peacegirl, are you talking about Andy Wakefield or Josef Mengele? I feel like I have to ask in view of your comparison of the two.
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  #7925  
Old 12-17-2017, 06:28 PM
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It's a matter of debate whether he knew and ignored the rules, or whether he was ignorant of the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
No, it's not. The GMC already made that determination. At least you recognize he was either fraudulent or ignorant of basic ethics - add this to the comparison with a drug dealer and Mengele.
I don't think he realized he needed ethical approval for the blood samples. He said he would have done it differently had he known. The comparison between Mengele and Wakefield is absurd. Don't you agree? Of course not. You want to put him in the same category, even though they are worlds apart.
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You can compare him to Mengele all you want, because you're going by the book.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
That was your comparison, peacegirl, but I agree it was apt to the extent that both Wakefield and Mengele unethically experimented on children.
No Chuck, you're not going to make it sound like Wakefield's misstep was equivalent to what Mengele did to children.
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
He did not experiment on children by taking blood samples.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
Yes, that was Wakefield unethically experimenting on children.
No.
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Technically, he didn't use the right protocol because he did not get ethical approval.
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Originally Posted by Chuck
That is correct - he unethically experimented on those children.
He didn't abide by the protocol, but he did not experiment on children.
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Originally Posted by peacegirl View Post
Sorry, but I don't call getting a blood sample with the parent's consent -- medical experimentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
That's fine, peacegirl - what you call things is totally immaterial. I mean, I'm sure many of your sources in this very thread do not consider that Josef Mengele did anything wrong.
I doubt that, but it's immaterial. The victims of Mengele's experimentation define the immorality of his behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
Fortunately, those who defend unethical experimentation on children (whether Wakefield's or Mengele's) do not get a say in it.
Wakefield's behavior was not unethical, according to the definition given by Wikipedia. The truth is he did not meet the standard of behavior that was set by the ethics committee. He broke the rules. Call it what you will. I'm not going to argue over definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck
peacegirl, I encourage you to actually read this article; have a look at what you're defending.
I understand why it was necessary to create a regulatory agency. That's not what I'm arguing about. What I'm arguing about is the extreme punishment that Wakefield got for this one misstep that hurt no one. You can argue that he made a slew of mistakes, but that's open for debate. The hospital's reputation was also at stake considering this was such a high profile case. They could have given him a warning, which was all that was necessary to get full compliance and to set a precedent without stripping his licence. Don't you believe in second chances, or have you never made a mistake that requires leniency? Rhetorical question, don't answer.
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