taxation

[Kael]

Yes, I suppose your version of the "999 plan" deserves the lofty praise of being better than Herman Cain's.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

What do you think?

9% labor tax only on wages greater than $60,000

9% corporate tax on the first penny

9% sales tax on only new items retailing for over $100 (excluding homes valued at $500,00 or less and automobiles valued at $60,000 or less)

So when I ask you what your source is for these details of Herman Cain's 999 plan:

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

My 999 plan is better dumbass.

So when responding directly to a post about Herman Cain's 999 plan, you start giving details of your 999 plan. Which was never referred to as a 999 plan on this forum before this discussion. And has different details from tax schemes previously mentioned by you in this thread. But ya, the dumbassery is in my assumption you were referring to Herman Cain's plan. Okey dokey.

Dumbass.

Your plan appears to substantially underfund the government, and reduce taxes on the wealthy and for people mostly in the range between $40k and $60k, as long as they don't require health care that costs more than $100 retail, and buy used things. I don't know if there is any difference in filing status under your plan. If not, individuals making a little over $60k with dependents will I think incur higher taxes than they pay now.

What is your estimation in your shortfall in government revenue? You have removed any dedicated funding stream for Social Security and Medicare. What programs then would you cut to pay for this shortfall? Will people who have paid into Social Security and Medicare still get promised benefits? Will the US still pay off its debts?

[Jerome]

Cain's 999 plan is still better than what we have now.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

What is your estimation in your shortfall in government revenue? You have removed any dedicated funding stream for Social Security and Medicare. What programs then would you cut to pay for this shortfall? Will people who have paid into Social Security and Medicare still get promised benefits? Will the US still pay off its debts?

We could stay with Obama's plan of printing new money and giving it to bankers.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Cain's 999 plan is still better than what we have now.

Better in what way? In nearly doubling the taxes of middle class families? In replacing a tax you abhor as regressive with an even more regressive tax? In increasing taxes on the poorest, while cutting taxes for corporations and the wealthy? In creating shortfalls that will require additional cuts to government programs? By increasing individual health care costs and food costs by 9%?

How that is better than our current tax plan is unclear.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

In nearly doubling the taxes of middle class families?

Stupid liberal lies, you are in the wrong thread.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

Stupid liberal lies, you are in the wrong thread.

ABCNews: 9-9-9 Plan Would Almost Double Taxes on Middle Class

If you have a family of four with an income of just under $50,000, they would pay more under the Cain plan. Currently, they are taxed at just less than 7 percent and pay $3,400 in income tax. Under Cain’s plan, they would be taxed at 9 percent or pay $4,500.

That’s $1,100 more.

Although the family would save almost $4,000 in Social Security taxes, it would have to give up the child tax credit of $4,000. Furthermore, it would pay an additional national sales tax of 9 percent on everything purchased, including groceries and clothes, which totals about $2,000.

That means under the Cain plan that family would be almost doubling its taxes, going from $3,400 to $6,500.

Feel free to show specific errors to support your claim.

[Jerome]

Again pretending that payroll taxes don't exist...

You thing his plan taxes the first dollar at 9%? lol how dumb are you, do you really believe this?

[Jerome]

lol

I like how you need to make up what will be taxed.

[Clutch Munny]

Remember: sociological experiment.*






*Not intended as the actual giving and taking of reasons. An experiment in getting people to do and say stuff.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME (Jerry) Soetoro

Again pretending that payroll taxes don't exist...

Hey I went back and checked the original article, and they revised down their estimate of how much more a family of four earning a little under $50k. Instead of $3,100, they are estimating now that the family under Herman Cain's 999 plan would pay $2,725 more in income and sales tax. But if you believe they did not calculate in the payroll taxes deducted from their earnings- 5.65%- then feel free to again, actually support your contention, and show your work.

Originally Posted by JEROME (Jerry) Soetoro

You thing[sic] his plan taxes the first dollar at 9%?

Herman Cain's own website:

Individual Flat Tax – 9%.

Gross income less charitable deductions.
Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.

I'm curious, what rate do you think Herman Cain is proposing everyone be taxed at, when he discusses his 999 plan? What do you think Herman Cain's 999 plan taxes "the first dollar at"?

Originally Posted by JEROME (Jerry) Soetoro

I like how you need to make up what will be taxed.

Please tell me what you think the actual tax rate is under Cain's 999 plan, and where specifically you think it is I erred.

[Angakuk]

[BrotherMan]

I'm pretty sure that as a millionaire, Thurston Howell the 3rd deserves to keep more of his money as a regularly contributing member of society (and as a job creator) than Gilligan who is most likely sucking at the teat of the government when he's not smoking a dobie. I mean, geez, it's Math 101.

[Jerome]

999 Sales Tax Calculator

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

999 Sales Tax Calculator

Invisible Embedded Tax (22% based on average ratio*)

Let's follow the asterisk!

*On average, 22% of the price of most consumer products is incorporated into the price to cover the average corporate tax rate of 35%. If that corporate tax rate is lowered to 9%, that 22% is reduced to about 6%. (using the ratio of 35%: 22%; 9%;~6%)
Disclaimer: 999calculator.net has no affiliation with the Herman Cain 2012 Presidential Campaign in any way.

So first, let's look at that federal corporate tax rate of 35%.
CNNMoney 2008:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corporations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released Tuesday.

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) examined samples of corporate tax returns filed between 1998 and 2005. In that time period, an annual average of 1.3 million U.S. companies and 39,000 foreign companies doing business in the United States paid no income taxes - despite having a combined $2.5 trillion in revenue.

The study showed that 28% of foreign companies and 25% of U.S. corporations with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in sales paid no federal income taxes in 2005. Those companies totaled a combined $372 billion in sales for the largest foreign companies and $1.1 trillion in revenue for the biggest U.S. companies.

So, if the actual amount of taxes paid varies, how do businesses calculate that "embedded tax" into their pricing? I'll give you a hint. Since a company's profit margin is determined after they actually sell (or don't sell) their goods and services, and since pricing is mostly influenced by supply and demand, and since at least in theory most businesses are in competition, they don't calculate a 22% in there. They can definitely assume a general tax rate. But the idea that if that tax rate goes up or down based on the profitability of the company (and/or their ability to shift profit overseas, into tax shelters, etc.), that there is then a corresponding shift in pricing, straight to the consumers, is laughable.

GE paid no US federal corporate income tax last year. Anyone see a big price drop where they passed those savings on to the consumers? CitiGroup paid no federal corporate income taxes last year- and it won't for years to come. Did they drop their fees and charges? Bank of America also paid no federal corporate income taxes last year. Anybody see their fee schedule shift to benefit the consumer? Ford Motor Company was taxed at 2.3%. Did the price of Fords drop? Valero Energy Company paid no federal corporate income taxes. Is their gasoline substantially cheaper than their competitors?

Which illustrates my point: all this rests on the assumption that reducing federal corporate income taxes- which many corporations currently do not pay, or pay at a rate substantially lower than 35%- then means that those corporations are going to turn around and pass that savings on to the consumer, rather than give that additional profit to shareholders, or their CEOs and executives, or buy back their stock- which is what they usually do with tax windfalls.
WSJ Oct 10, 2011:

The 15 companies that repatriated the most after the 2004 tax break on the return of overseas profits later cut a net 20,931 jobs between 2004 and 2007 and slightly decreased the pace of their spending on research and development, found the report surveying 19 companies' activity.

When Congress passed the repatriation tax holiday in 2004, the legislation specified that the funds should be earmarked for activities like hiring workers or conducting research and prohibited using the money for executive compensation or buying back stock. Companies that brought back profits earned abroad saw them taxed at roughly 5%, instead of the top 35% corporate tax rate.
...>snip<...
The five companies that benefitted the most from the 2004 tax break included Pfizer Inc., Merck & Co., Hewlett-Packard Co., Johnson & Johnson and International Business Machines Corp., repatriating $88 billion, or 28% of the total amount brought back to the U.S., according to the report. In total, 843 companies brought back $312 billion, the Internal Revenue Service has assessed.

The report noted that Pfizer had the single largest share of the repatriated profits, bringing home $35.5 billion in foreign earnings, while also cutting 11,748 U.S. jobs between 2004 and 2007. Similarly, IBM brought back $9.5 billion, but cut 12,830 jobs, the report stated, citing answers from the companies in response to its questions.

Meanwhile, the top 15 repatriating companies also accelerated their spending on stock buybacks and executive compensation after the tax break. The top five executives at those 15 companies saw their compensation rise 27% from 2004 to 2005 and then another 30% between 2005 to 2006.

And speaking of supply and demand, how's all that "savings" going to really work out for the consumer, since under Herman Cain's 999 plan, they are going to pay 9% sales tax on all those goods and services? Especially on the poorest, who went from a low effective tax rate to 9% income tax and 9% sales tax? That's going to fuck demand right in the ass.

On the equally laughable assumptions that Herman Cain has a chance in hell in becoming president, and could get the disastrous and massively regressive 999 plan in place.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

I'll give you a hint. Since a company's profit margin is determined after they actually sell (or don't sell) their goods and services, and since pricing is mostly influenced by supply and demand

How many businesses have you started and how many businesses do you run?

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

GE paid no US federal corporate income tax last year. Anyone see a big price drop where they passed those savings on to the consumers?

GE Appliances - Kitchen Appliances, Refrigerator, Dishwasher

Show that their retail prices have increased above the rate of inflation.

[chunksmediocrites]

Originally Posted by JEROME (Jerry) Soetoro

How many businesses have you started and how many businesses do you run?

All of them. I am the ultimate authority and vastly appealing. But I think I may have gout. All these doctors keep saying what I should do to treat my gout, but none of them have had gout, so what do those dumbasses know?

Was there something you were planning on refuting?

Originally Posted by JEROME (Jerry) Soetoro

GE Appliances - Kitchen Appliances, Refrigerator, Dishwasher

Show that their retail prices have increased above the rate of inflation.

How would showing such a thing relate to the supposed consumer savings that corporations are eager to pass on once they are no longer yolked with federal corporate taxation? Was I arguing that there was a price increase above the rate of inflation? Fetch your own data to prove whatever point you think it is you're illustrating.

Or you might even answer basic questions you've been asked before issuing your terse imperatives.

Show that you're less of a douche than you make yourself out to be, based on the rate of douche inflation.

[chunksmediocrites]

Hey Jerome! Let me help you, since you suck ass at defending your position! Herman Cain says if you're below the federal poverty guidelines, well then no income tax for you! Yay! TPM:

“If you are at or below the poverty level, you’re plan isn’t 9-9-9,” Cain said. “It’s 9-0-9. Say Amen, y’all.”

Now an individual just has to hope they don't make $10,891 in a year, or else they pay 9%. Though with this economy they may yet be a lucky duck and stay below the line! And of course they will be paying 9% sales tax.

Who benefits from this plan the most, Jerome? Looks like the rich do.

the majority of the highest income households would get a tax cut. For instance, 95% of those with more than $1 million in income would receive an average tax cut of $487,300.

But Cain says his plan is revenue neutral. So where, oh where, do you think that revenue that the rich aren't paying will come from? Because the Tax Policy Center thinks it is going to come from the poor and middle class paying more.

[Sauron]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME

How many businesses have you started and how many businesses do you run?

Relevance of the question, please?

We have absolutely no evidence that you have either started a business or run one. To date, you have failed to provide any substantiation for your claim of five (or seven, or nine, or whatever) corporations.

Your word is hardly evidence, given your lack of integrity. Would you like to offer up your business license numbers, business names, tax IDs, addresses of record, etc. to verify your claim?

Besides, given your inability to define ordinary terms, "run a business" might mean "had eggs for breakfast" in your world, and "five medium sized corporations" probably means "five strips of crispy bacon."

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Sauron

We have absolutely no evidence that you have either started a business or run one. Your word is hardly evidence, given your lack of integrity. Would you like to offer up your business license numbers, business names, tax IDs, addresses of record, etc.?

Besides, given your inability to define ordinary terms, "run a business" might mean "had eggs for breakfast" in your world.

And if you do, you have shown us that there is nothing to it and you'll have plenty of time left to avoid questions on internet talk forums, even if you have 5 or 7 or umpteen medium corporations.

[erimir]

I had a theory that he was defining "medium size" in terms of the corporations actual corporeal body. Now, technically, a corporation has no corporeal manifestation. The corporation owns buildings and other assets, and employs people, but it is not, in itself, those buildings and people.

Thus, all corporations have the same size - of taking up no space. Thus, any corporation is medium-sized, as they all have the same size. So, JEROME can have five or seven shell corporations, or corporations meant for tax or liability purposes, but which do not actually employ any people or engage in any real business, and still claim that they are all medium-sized.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

Now an individual just has to hope they don't make $10,891 in a year, or else they pay 9%.

lol

You don't even understand how the tax brackets work.

If one makes $10,892 according to the current base idea; which I am sure you understand is not the fleshed out plan, the tax would be $.09.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by erimir

I had a theory that he was defining "medium size" in terms of the corporations actual corporeal body. Now, technically, a corporation has no corporeal manifestation. The corporation owns buildings and other assets, and employs people, but it is not, in itself, those buildings and people.

Thus, all corporations have the same size - of taking up no space. Thus, any corporation is medium-sized, as they all have the same size. So, JEROME can have five or seven shell corporations, or corporations meant for tax or liability purposes, but which do not actually employ any people or engage in any real business, and still claim that they are all medium-sized.

All of my corporations employee multiple peoples.

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by chunksmediocrites

I am jealous of those have more than me.

Ever create a job Chunks?

I would be willing to bet that your income comes from the collection of tax on the working class.