Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-12-2011, 06:18 PM
Sophia Sophia is offline
Banned for copyright violations
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Nouveau royaume croisť de Jťrusalem
Posts: MDCCCXIII
Default Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Great article. It is very difficult to get anywhere near such breadth and depth of perspective from American pundits.
Quote:
Pilger eloquently reminds us how important it is for healthy individuality to be balanced with strong empathy for other people imbued with a social conscience. Likewise he does a good job detailing one of the ways many who insist they are feminists allow themselves to be co-opted by patriarchy. Make no mistake about it - you can't get more patriarchal than militarism and imperialism.
Protect Assange, don’t abuse him
John Pilger
16 December 2010

Forty years ago, a book entitled The Greening of America caused a sensation. On the cover were these words: "There is a revolution coming. It will not be like revolutions of the past. It will originate with the individual." I was a correspondent in the United States at the time and recall the overnight elevation to guru status of the author, a young Yale academic, Charles Reich. His message was that political action had failed and only "culture" and introspection could change the world. This merged with an insidious corporate public relations campaign aimed at reclaiming western capitalism from the sense of freedom inspired by the civil rights and anti-war movements. The new propaganda's euphemisms were postmodernism, consumerism and "me-ism".

The self was now the zeitgeist. Driven by the forces of profit and the media, the search for individual consciousness all but overwhelmed the spirit of social justice and internationalism. A new deity was proclaimed; the personal was the political.

In 1995, Reich published Opposing the System, in which he recanted almost everything in The Greening of America. "There will be no relief from either economic insecurity or human breakdown," he now wrote, "until we recognise that uncontrolled economic forces create conflict, not well-being . . ." There were no queues in the bookstores this time. In the age of economic neoliberalism, Reich was out of step with the rampant individualism of the west's new political and cultural elite.

The revival of militarism in the west and the search for a new "threat" following the end of the cold war depended on the political disorientation of those who, 20 years earlier, would have formed a vehement opposition. On 11 September 2001, they were silenced finally, and many were co-opted into the "war on terror". The invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001 was supported by leading feminists, especially in the US, where Hillary Clinton and other false tribunes of feminism made the Taliban's treatment of Afghan women the rationale for attacking a stricken country and causing the deaths of at least 20,000 people while giving the Taliban new life. That the warlords backed by America were as medievalist as the Taliban was not allowed to interrupt such a right-on cause. The zeitgeist, the years of "personal" depoliticising and distracting true radicalism, had worked. Nine years later, the disaster that is Afghanistan is the consequence.

It seems the lesson must be learned all over again as a group of media feminists joins the assault on Julian Assange and WikiLeaks, or the "Wikiblokesphere", as Libby Brooks abuses it in the Guardian. From the Times to the New Statesman, apparent feminist credence is given to the chaotic, incompetent and contradictory accusations against Assange in Sweden.

On 9 December, the Guardian published a long, supine interview by Amelia Gentleman with Claes BorgstrŲm, the "highly respected Swedish lawyer". In fact, BorgstrŲm is foremost a politician, a powerful member of the Social Democratic Party. He intervened in the Assange case only when the senior prosecutor in Stockholm dismissed the "rape" allegation as based on "no evidence". In Gentleman's Guardian article, an anonymous source whispers to us that Assange's "behaviour towards women . . . was going to get him into trouble". This smear was taken up by Brooks in the paper that same day. Ken Loach and I and others on "the left" are "shoulder to shoulder" with the misogynists and "conspiracy theorists". To hell with journalistic inquiry. Ignorance and prejudice rule.

The Australian barrister James Catlin, who acted for Assange in October, says that both women in the case told prosecutors that they consented to have sex with Assange. Following the "crime", one of the women threw a party in honour of Assange. When BorgstrŲm was asked why he was representing the women, as both denied rape, he said: "Yes, but they are not lawyers." Catlin describes the Swedish justice system as "a laughing stock". For three months, Assange and his lawyers have pleaded with the Swedish authorities to let them see the prosecution case. This was denied until 18 November, when the first official document arrived - in the Swedish language, contrary to European law.

Assange still has not been charged with anything. He has never been a "fugitive". He sought and got permission to leave Sweden, and the British police have known his whereabouts since his arrival in this country. This did not stop a London magistrate on 7 December ignoring seven sureties and sending him to solitary confinement in Wandsworth Prison.

At every turn, Assange's basic human rights have been breached. The cowardly Australian government, which is legally obliged to support its citizen, has made a veiled threat to take away his passport. In her public remarks, the prime minister, Julia Gillard, has shamefully torn up the presumption of innocence that underpins Australian law. The Australian minister for foreign affairs ought to have called in both the Swedish and the US ambassadors to warn them against any abuse of human rights against Assange, such as the crime of incitement to murder.

In contrast, vast numbers of decent people all over the world have rallied to Assange's support: people who are neither misogynists nor "internet attack dogs", to quote Libby Brooks, and who support a very different set of values from those espoused by Charles Reich. They include many distinguished feminists, such as Naomi Klein, who wrote: "Rape is being used in the Assange prosecution in the same way that women's freedom was used to invade Afghanistan. Wake up!"

Last edited by Sophia; 02-12-2011 at 06:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:58 AM
Angakuk's Avatar
Angakuk Angakuk is offline
NeoTillichian Hierophant & Partisan Hack
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Iowa
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCCLXXXIII
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

A question and a comment.

What is the source of the comment in the quote block?

It is unnecessary, and probably a violation of fair use, to quote the entire article. It would be more appropiate to quote selected portions of the article. Anyone interested in reading the entire article can do so by following the link you have provided. Also, it would be appropriate to put the quoted portion of the article inside a quote block.
__________________
Old Pain In The Ass says: I am on a mission from God to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable; to bring faith to the doubtful and doubt to the faithful. :shakebible:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
California Tanker (02-14-2011), chunksmediocrites (02-14-2011), Dingfod (02-18-2013), Watser? (02-15-2011)
  #3  
Old 02-14-2011, 01:41 PM
ZEZOZE's Avatar
ZEZOZE ZEZOZE is offline
you're next
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Gender: Bender
Posts: VMMCCCIX
Images: 147
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

lol...wwjd?
__________________
paranoid fringe dweller
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Dingfod (02-18-2013)
  #4  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:01 AM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

I wasn't sure where to post this, and hey, here's a thread regarding Assange. Lol Sophia.

In case you haven't heard, WikiLeaks spokesperson Julian Assange lost his bid in Britain to prevent deportation to Sweden to face an investigation regarding alleged sex offenses, including rape. I discussed some details of these allegations here. He's currently out on bail, and on Wednesday June 20 he entered the Ecuadorian embassy in London, where he asked for asylum.
Assange's primary stated rationale is he believes Sweden will hand him over to the US, and that the US will attempt to try him for espionage, and that the US may execute him, or hold him in a secret prison, or hold him without charges indefinitely.

Assange is still in the Ecuadorian embassy, while President Rafael Correa and government officials confer as to whether asylum will be granted. One factor is that by entering the embassy he has violated terms of his bond and if he leaves the embassy, he will likely be jailed until being extradited to Sweden- to face an interview, as there are no official charges against him.

Assange has been producing episodes on Russia Today, interviewing a number of interesting people; here's his interview with President Rafeal Correa this May.

Glenn Greenwald has an op-ed in the Guardian UK:
Quote:
If one asks current or former WikiLeaks associates what their greatest fear is, almost none cites prosecution by their own country. Most trust their own nation's justice system to recognize that they have committed no crime. The primary fear is being turned over to the US. That is the crucial context for understanding Julian Assange's 16-month fight to avoid extradition to Sweden, a fight that led him to seek asylum, Tuesday, in the London Embassy of Ecuador.

The evidence that the US seeks to prosecute and extradite Assange is substantial. There is no question that the Obama justice department has convened an active grand jury to investigate whether WikiLeaks violated the draconian Espionage Act of 1917. Key senators from President Obama's party, including Senate intelligence committee chairwoman Dianne Feinstein, have publicly called for his prosecution under that statute. A leaked email from the security firm Stratfor – hardly a dispositive source, but still probative – indicated that a sealed indictment has already been obtained against him. Prominent American figures in both parties have demanded Assange's lifelong imprisonment, called him a terrorist, and even advocated his assassination.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (06-25-2012), But (06-25-2012), ChuckF (06-25-2012), Clutch Munny (06-25-2012), Crumb (06-25-2012), freemonkey (06-25-2012), lisarea (06-25-2012), livius drusus (06-25-2012), Nullifidian (06-25-2012), Pan Narrans (06-25-2012), Qingdai (06-25-2012), Sauron (06-26-2012), The Man (06-25-2012), Watser? (06-25-2012)
  #5  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:20 AM
California Tanker's Avatar
California Tanker California Tanker is offline
Compensating for something...
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: VCMXXXVIII
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

For the sake of asking, if the fear is that the US will conduct extradition proceedings to gain Assange from Sweden, why could they not also conduct extradition proceedings to gain him from the UK? Presumably the levels of evidence and processes are going to be pretty similar.
__________________
A man only needs two tools in life. WD-40 and duct tape. If it moves and it shouldn't, use the duct tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:34 AM
Gonzo's Avatar
Gonzo Gonzo is offline
It's however you interpret the question...
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: On A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream
Gender: Bender
Posts: VMMMCDXLV
Blog Entries: 1
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

I saw the name, and you had me scared for a minute.
__________________
Buy the ticket, take the ride.

:thanked:
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-25-2012, 04:24 PM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Quote:
Originally Posted by California Tanker View Post
For the sake of asking, if the fear is that the US will conduct extradition proceedings to gain Assange from Sweden, why could they not also conduct extradition proceedings to gain him from the UK? Presumably the levels of evidence and processes are going to be pretty similar.
From here:
Quote:
- The UKís extradition treaty does not have the temporary surrender (íconditional releaseí) clause. The UKís judicial review process, while far from perfect, has a number of practical review mechanisms. The nearest equivalent case, of Gary McKinnon - a UK citizen who has been charged for hacking US military systems - has been opposed in the courts for 8 years.

- Public opinion and the media (to a greater extent) are more sympathetic to Julian Assange in the UK than in Sweden. Public pressure could draw out the process of extradition to the United States in the UK. In Sweden the media climate is hostile (see Media climate in Sweden) due to the sex allegations. Public outcry would be significantly weaker and therefore less likely to stand in the way of a strategically convenient extradition.

- In the UK, Julian Assange is better able to defend himself, muster support and understand the legal procedures against him. In Sweden on the other hand, the language barrier prevents him from effectively challenging the actions against.

- The UK is politically better positioned to withstand pressure from the United States than Sweden. Sweden is a small country of nine million people close to Russia. It has grown increasingly dependent on the United States. In recent years Sweden has complied with directives from the United States in a manner that has not been scrutinised by Parliament, as has been revealed by the disclosed diplomatic cables (see Political Interference).
That's what I can find; I don't know how the UK population generally and the UK government specifically view Assange.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
California Tanker (06-26-2012), Nullifidian (06-25-2012), Sauron (06-26-2012), The Man (06-26-2012), Watser? (06-25-2012)
  #8  
Old 06-25-2012, 09:02 PM
Demimonde's Avatar
Demimonde Demimonde is offline
an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
Posts: VMMCDLXI
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 28
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

There is also the issue of the death penalty, as well as recent issues with the US's stance on torture and indefinite detention:

Quote:
Possibility of certain forms of punishment - some countries refuse extradition on grounds that the person, if extradited, may receive capital punishment or face torture. A few go as far as to cover all punishments that they themselves would not administer.

Death penalty - Many countries, such as Australia, Canada, Macao,[2] and most European nations, will not allow extradition if the death penalty may be imposed on the suspect unless they are assured that the death sentence will not be passed or carried out.

Torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment - Many countries will not extradite if there is a risk that a requested person will be subjected to torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. In the case of Soering v United Kingdom, the European Court of Human Rights held that it would violate Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights to extradite a person to the United States from the United Kingdom in a capital case. This was due to the harsh conditions on death row and the uncertain timescale within which the sentence would be executed.
wiki
__________________
:boobkicker:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (06-25-2012), Crumb (06-25-2012), Nullifidian (06-25-2012), Pan Narrans (06-26-2012), Qingdai (06-26-2012), The Man (06-26-2012)
  #9  
Old 02-17-2013, 04:10 PM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Julian Assange has submitted paperwork to run for a senate seat in his home nation of Australia. He believes if elected his position will put pressure on the US, the UK and Sweden, and avoid arrest and extradition for questioning regarding rape allegations in Sweden, and extradition from Sweden to the US for his work with Wikileaks.

Apparently his party affiliation is the Wikileaks Party.

Assange has been in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London since June 2012. The 24-hour police detail outside the embassy, there to take Assange in to custody should he try to leave, is reported to have cost the government 2.9 million pounds.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Crumb (02-17-2013), Janet (02-20-2013), livius drusus (02-17-2013), Nullifidian (02-17-2013), Pan Narrans (02-18-2013), Sauron (02-18-2013)
  #10  
Old 04-11-2019, 02:57 PM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Assange taken into British custody today.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (04-11-2019), The Man (04-11-2019)
  #11  
Old 04-11-2019, 05:44 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMCMXXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Hannity's frantically deleting tweets.

__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
But (04-12-2019), JoeP (04-11-2019), Qingdai (04-12-2019), Stormlight (04-12-2019), The Man (04-11-2019)
  #12  
Old 04-11-2019, 06:22 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMCMXXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him


__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Stormlight (04-12-2019), The Man (04-11-2019)
  #13  
Old 04-12-2019, 08:05 PM
But's Avatar
But But is offline
This is the title that appears beneath your name on your posts.
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: MVDCCXXI
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (04-13-2019)
  #14  
Old 04-12-2019, 09:09 PM
erimir's Avatar
erimir erimir is offline
Projecting my phallogos with long, hard diction
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Dee Cee
Gender: Male
Posts: XMMMCL
Images: 11
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

His arrest is over skipping bail after fleeing Sweden to escape rape charges.

The US's request for extradition over alleged "terrorist" hacking is the issue, particularly if it's granted.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (04-13-2019)
  #15  
Old 04-12-2019, 09:17 PM
But's Avatar
But But is offline
This is the title that appears beneath your name on your posts.
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: MVDCCXXI
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 04-12-2019, 09:48 PM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
TURCO ISLAMIC BACTERIA FROM THE OLD EARTH!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMMD
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Gotta love the internet. A subset of Trumplings spent an hour or two yesterday raging over Assange's arrest before "figuring out" that it's all part of Trump's brilliant plan to have Assange brought here to provide conclusive evidence that Seth Rich was murdered at Hillary Clinton's direction.

Also, lol Sophia, who is surely living a life of joy with heptagon (who is totally real, btw) on the former Pitcairn Island, now known as the Sovereign Autocracy of Bimbo Island.
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (04-13-2019), Ensign Steve (04-12-2019), erimir (04-13-2019), Qingdai (04-13-2019), slimshady2357 (04-12-2019), Sock Puppet (04-12-2019), Stormlight (04-15-2019), The Man (04-13-2019)
  #17  
Old 04-13-2019, 05:54 PM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMCMXXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

British human rights lawyer on the US extradition request:

Thread by @AdamWagner1: "Some thoughts on the Assange indictment dated 3.6.18 but now unsealed (justice.gov/usao-edva/pres…) I think there are potential serious impl […]"
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
erimir (04-13-2019), JoeP (04-13-2019), The Man (04-13-2019)
  #18  
Old 04-15-2019, 12:44 AM
Kamilah Hauptmann's Avatar
Kamilah Hauptmann Kamilah Hauptmann is offline
I'm a regular Victor Victoria
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: VMCMXXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Blog post on extradition law in Britain.

Assange, Extradition and Human Rights | spinninghugo
__________________
Sometimes you herp a derp, sometimes the derp herps you.

:BC: :canada:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (04-15-2019)
  #19  
Old 04-19-2019, 11:58 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
Safety glasses off, motherfuckers
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sarasota, FL
Gender: Bender
Posts: MVDCCCXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Lest we forget what Mueller’s first report revealed about Assange:



And the Daily Beast via Balloon Juice:

Quote:
Julian Assange not only knew that a murdered Democratic National Committee staffer wasn’t his source for thousands of hacked party emails, he was in active contact with his real sources in Russia’s GRU months after Seth Rich’s death. At the same time he was publicly working to shift blame onto the slain staffer “to obscure the source of the materials he was releasing,” Special Counsel Robert Mueller asserts in his final report on Russia’s role in the 2016 presidential election.

“After the U.S. intelligence community publicly announced its assessment that Russia was behind the hacking operation, Assange continued to deny that the Clinton materials released by WikiLeaks had come from Russian hacking,” the report reads. “According to media reports, Assange told a U.S. congressman that the DNC hack was an ‘inside job,’ and purported to have ‘physical proof’ that Russians did not give materials to Assange.”

… As laid out by Mueller, Assange’s involvement in Russia’s election interference began with a June 14, 2016 direct message to WikiLeaks’ Twitter account from “DC Leaks,” one of the false fronts created by the Russians to launder their hacked material.

“You announced your organization was preparing to publish more Hillary’s emails,” the message read, according to Mueller’s report. “We are ready to support you. We have some sensitive information too, in particular, her financial documents. Let’s do it together. What do you think about publishing our info at the same moment? Thank you.”

A week later, WikiLeaks reached out to a second GRU persona, Guccifer 2.0, and pitched WikiLeaks as the best outlet for the hacked material. On July 14, 2016, GRU officers used a Guccifer 2.0 email address to send WikiLeaks an encrypted one-gigabyte file named “wk dnc link I .txt.gpg.” Assange confirmed receipt, and on July 22 he published 20,000 DNC emails stolen during the GRU’s breach…

Rich was a 27-year-old DNC staffer when he was gunned down in what police have described as a robbery gone wrong. The unsolved murder timed shortly before Assange’s DNC leaks spoke volumes to inhabitants of the far right wing fringe, where it’s long been an article of faith that Hillary Clinton has her enemies killed…

With Assange behind it, the Seth Rich hoax moved into the almost-mainstream, spawning a quickly-retracted report on Fox News, and a series of “investigations” by Assange ally Sean Hannity. It also wreaked havoc in the lives of Rich’s surviving family, particularly his anguished parents who later begged perpetrators of the charade “to give us peace, and to give law enforcement the time and space to do the investigation they need to solve our son’s murder.”

Even as he was ruthlessly framing Rich to protect himself, the GRU, or both, Assange was privately communicating with his real sources to arrange the transfer of the second election leak, material the GRU stole from John Podesta’s Gmail account…

The Mueller report quotes from cryptic emails and messages exchanged between WikiLeaks and the GRU accounts in September 2016, and based on metadata, Mueller suspects the transfer occurred on September 19. But the actual transmittal of the massive Podesta haul evidently took place in a channel that Mueller couldn’t crack. The report notes the possibility that, this time, the files were simply carried into the Ecuadorian Embassy by one of Assange’s visitors.

In the end, the most charitable interpretation of Assange’s “dissembling” as Mueller calls it, in the Seth Rich hoax is that he genuinely couldn’t rule out the possibility that Rich was his source. The Mueller report demolished that final moral refuge. Rich had been dead four days when Assange received the DNC files...
At this point, I find myself hoping Assange fucking dies in prison. Calling him contemptible scum would be an insult to contemptible scum.

ETA: This isn't to say that there aren't potential legal issues raised by the charges against him, I should note. But he is not a journalist. He is a political operative and a propagandist.
__________________
Ceterum censeo factionem Republicanam esse delendam.



ďAll for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.Ē -Adam Smith

Foolís Goldlast.fmsoundcloudMarathon Chronicles

Last edited by The Man; 04-20-2019 at 01:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
JoeP (04-20-2019), Sock Puppet (04-20-2019)
  #20  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:08 PM
mickthinks's Avatar
mickthinks mickthinks is offline
Trying to find the actual stastics
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Augsburg
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMXXIX
Images: 19
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Man View Post
But he is not a journalist. He is a political operative and a propagandist.

That looks to me like a false dichotomy, similar to "He is not a freedom-fighter. He's a terrorist."

This is Peter Tatchell on the issue, and I put a lot of faith in him: Assange: Swedes & UK obstructed sex crime investigation | Peter Tatchell Foundation

From the linkIt is outrageous that the British government is doing Donald Trump’s dirty work by agreeing to arrest Assange following a US extradition request. His extradition to the US is not in the public interest.

Although the current US charges suggest that Assange will face a maximum of five years in prison, it is very likely that once he is in the US he will face much more serious additional charges that could see him jailed for 30 or more years. Previously, key Trump officials and supporters in Congress have demanded that he be locked up for decades and even face the death penalty,”
__________________
... it's just an idea
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
But (04-20-2019)
  #21  
Old 04-20-2019, 06:19 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
Safety glasses off, motherfuckers
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sarasota, FL
Gender: Bender
Posts: MVDCCCXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Assange was flat-out defaming a dead man for the sake of protecting the actual source of his material. He knew that Seth Rich couldn’t be his source because Rich had been dead for four days when he received the materials. As a result, Rich’s family has had to deal with vile conspiracy theories about his death for going on three years now. Lying is not the act of a journalist. A journalist reports the truth. I understand the value of protecting a source, but you don’t fucking lie to do it. That is not journalism. Assange is not a journalist.

(Sean Hannity isn’t a journalist either, for the record. Assange is no different than Sean Hannity to my mind.)

I oppose the death penalty categorically, and I have at best mixed feelings about life imprisonment, but I can’t say that the idea of Assange dying in prison displeases me after what he put Rich’s family through.

As I said, there are potential issues with the charges against Assange, but even if you disagree that he is not a journalist, it still seems flimsy to cite journalism as one of them. From my understanding, it appears that the reason he is being charged has largely to do with Manning’s intrusion attempts against a DOD server. If you give someone instructions on how to break into a bank, you can be charged as an accomplice. This seems comparable to what Assange is accused of doing. My understanding is that it has never been legal to solicit the commission of a crime for the sake of “journalism”, even in this country with its extensive First Amendment protections.

However, all that said, he should also be extradited to Sweden first if they pursue the charges against him, as one of his accusers has said she wants them to.

ETA: I should also acknowledge I have a somewhat narrower conception of the First Amendment than many other people do, and I definitely don’t think absolute free speech is a net good. I don’t think you can simply combat hate speech with more speech, for instance, and hope to end up with a tolerant society. This may be colouring my interpretation here vis-ŗ-vis others’ interpretations.

I certainly don’t trust this administration* to have good intentions here. However, I don’t think you can expand the principle “‘journalist’ solicits commission of crime” for a wide range of attacks on political opponents. If there is a major concern here, I suppose it is that other actual journalists might be framed for soliciting the commissions of crimes by this administration*, because I can’t actually put that past them. However, given their overall incompetence, it’s not something that keeps me up at night.
__________________
Ceterum censeo factionem Republicanam esse delendam.



ďAll for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.Ē -Adam Smith

Foolís Goldlast.fmsoundcloudMarathon Chronicles

Last edited by The Man; 04-20-2019 at 06:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Ari (04-21-2019), Kamilah Hauptmann (04-21-2019)
  #22  
Old 04-21-2019, 05:59 AM
Ari's Avatar
Ari Ari is offline
I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bay Area
Gender: Male
Posts: MXDCCCXCV
Blog Entries: 8
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

I have mixed and generally bad feelings because this seems like a case that is about nuance and complication and it's being led by president big truck goes beep beep brain worms' administration. Like I personally feel there's a difference between early wiki-leaks that was a multi person complex effort and later wiki-leaks that was just Assange kissing russia's ass. Exactly where that flip over happens and if that matters at all to constitutional rights is a question I don't think I'm even slightly well enough read up on the topics to give my opinion on.

Which is why I fear some judge or official that has even less understanding of it than I is going to assume they understand the case from the elevator ride down and rule on these sweeping matters setting some crazy precedent before it's even lunch.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
BrotherMan (04-21-2019), chunksmediocrites (04-21-2019), erimir (04-21-2019), JoeP (04-21-2019), Kamilah Hauptmann (04-21-2019), slimshady2357 (04-21-2019), Sock Puppet (04-22-2019), The Man (04-21-2019)
  #23  
Old 04-21-2019, 10:37 AM
JoeP's Avatar
JoeP JoeP is online now
YELLOW HAIR FAKE ANIMAL
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: England/Miisaland
Gender: Male
Posts: XXVMDLXIII
Images: 18
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
president big truck goes beep beep brain worms
:sadyup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
some crazy precedent president
:sadyup:
__________________

:roadrun:
Free thought! Please take one!

:unitedkingdom:   :southafrica:   :unitedkingdom::finland:       :eur:       :m&ms::m&ms::twix::twix: (rotated 180°):m&ms::m&ms:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
The Man (04-21-2019)
  #24  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:45 PM
chunksmediocrites's Avatar
chunksmediocrites chunksmediocrites is offline
ne plus ultraviolet
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland Oregon USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VCVI
Images: 299
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

The murdered Seth Rich blaming is slimy, and Assange isn't winning any personality contests: not my primary focus or concern, and frankly seems a little too convenient spin-focus on what a fuck Assange is, pre-conviction in the court of opinion.
Equador gave Assange asylum for six years because the concern was that instead of Assange being extradited to Sweden to face the charges there, that the UK would turn Assange over to the US instead to face charges involving espionage, including facing a potential death penalty.

What is it exactly that is happening now, do you think?
The US has been putting continual pressure on Ecuador to give up Assange.

The US has a vested interest in making sure that Assange is not considered a journalist because reporters and journalists still have some legal protections.

The propaganda is smear Assange, and that Assange is Wikileaks. That WikiLeaks is also bad.

Obama put a record number of whistleblowers in jail using the Espionage Act.

Here's Mike Pompeo when he was CIA director in 2017 on WikiLeaks:
CIA Director Pompeo Calls WikiLeaks a 'Hostile Intelligence Service'
Quote:
The former Kansas congressman was speaking at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C., his first public address since becoming director. He lamented the leak of classified materials, and criticized Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden, but levelled his harshest criticism at Assange and his organization.

"It is time to call out WikiLeaks for what it really is," he said, "a non-state hostile intelligence service often abetted by state actors like Russia.
That WikiLeaks can be fed info by a state actor and or compromised is a real risk; but it's hardly a one-way street. While WikiLeaks has been criticized in not releasing more leaked documents on Russia, WikiLeaks certainly has revealed some Russian dirt

Here's Snowden on the Assange arrest:
Assange arrest a 'dark moment' for press freedom: Snowden
Here's the UN:
2016: Julian Assange should be allowed to go free, UN panel finds
2018: UN calls on British authorities to allow Assange to leave Ecuadorian Embassy
2019: UN experts warn Assange arrest exposes him to risk of serious human rights violations

The US wants to prosecute Assange because WikiLeaks revealing US war crimes and rules of engagement, revealing spying and lies and corruption among the powerful is unacceptable; Assange as the face of WikiLeaks must be punished and a message sent.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
But (04-21-2019), ceptimus (04-25-2019), Crumb (04-22-2019), erimir (04-21-2019), JoeP (04-21-2019), Kamilah Hauptmann (04-21-2019), slimshady2357 (04-22-2019)
  #25  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:58 PM
The Man's Avatar
The Man The Man is offline
Safety glasses off, motherfuckers
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sarasota, FL
Gender: Bender
Posts: MVDCCCXIV
Default Re: Pilger: Protect Assange, donít abuse him

Wikileaks ca. 2010 and Wikileaks today are very different organisations. I acknowledge that they did a lot of great work in the past, and they revealed a lot of horrific wrongdoing by the U.S. government. If they had merely stuck to revealing wrongdoing by governments, I wouldn't be as indifferent to Assange's fate as I am. However, by all accounts, Assange himself is the reason the organisation is a shell of its former self. I've read time and again that his "leadership" drove many of its past members away from it, and that this is why it is no longer particularly focused on government wrongdoing.

The DNC email releases had nothing to do with government wrongdoing. Nothing. Not even Hillary Clinton was a government official at the time of their release. The majority of them were the private business of private citizens. A lot of ink deservedly gets spilled on how this was a major factor in the 2016 election, but there is comparatively little about how the organisation was also invading the privacy of presumably thousands of private citizens. There was no public interest in doing so. This is, as we will see, a recurring factor in many of the organisation's recent document releases.

Moreover, while the organisation used to publish accounts of wrongdoing by the Russian government, this appears to have lessened in recent years. Assange has gone so far as to request that his private security detail be provided by the FSB and to host on Russia's propaganda network RT (formerly known as Russia Today), and the Daily Dot reported that Wikileaks excluded evidence of a €2B transfer from the Central Bank of Syria to an account at the VTB Bank of Russia, to which Wikileaks responded by accusing the reporters of being Hillary Clinton supporters and making an unspecified threat: "you can be sure we will return the favour one day". The organisation has made similar threats against MSNBC host Joy Reid for discussing its ties to Russia. When the Panama Papers were published, exposing widespread corruption in Russia and elsewhere, Wikileaks refused to publish them, denouncing them on Twitter as a false flag aimed at discrediting Putin and funded by Soros (more on antisemitism later; the OCCRP does in fact receive Soros funding, but ranting about him is generally what poker players call a tell, and several major US companies were also named in the Panama Papers).

And, I mean, there was certainly valid public interest in many of the organisation's earlier releases such as the Collateral Murder video, and the organisation was performing a legitimate public service as a whistleblower at the time. No one with any sense questions that. But in 2011 they released documents without sources and methods redacted, which put service members in harm's way. That was the point where the organisation really began trashing its reputation - even Glenn Greenwald criticised the release. Chinese nationalist groups advocated violence against many of the Chinese nationals named in the 2011 release as having met with U.S. embassy staff, and an Ethiopian journalist named in the cables reportedly had to flee the country.

The organisation also published a document giving names and details of the last remaining Jews in Baghdad, thus jeopardising their safety; it doxxed millions of female Turkish voters; it has cooperated with neo-Nazis such as Swedish Holocaust denier Israel Shamir; and it has doxxed thousands of Saudi queer people, rape survivors, HIV/AIDS patients, and others who could be killed for various reasons. The organisation is a fucking dumpster fire.

And, of course, let's not forget his antisemitic ranting about a "Jewish conspiracy" against him, nor his support for RONPAUL and RANDPAUL. The organisation has also used the triple-parentheses used by white supremacists as an antisemitic slur, which it denies is at all antisemitic because apparently its ironic appropriation by some Jews in their own Twitter names (and some non-Jews in a show of solidarity) negates the antisemitism implicit when anyone else uses it (no, really - this is their pathetic excuse for logic. They might as well be saying "But moooooooom, Chris Rock uses the N-word!").

None of this excuses the actions of the Dump administration*, and I agree that the Obama administration is far from blameless (though as with everything else, they look saintly in comparison). However, whether Assange is or ever was a journalist seems largely beside the point. Non-journalists are still protected by the First Amendment, and journalists still aren't allowed to break the law or solicit others to do the same in the service of journalism. Assange has done himself no favours here, reportedly - for years there have been stories of how he has been the world's worst houseguest, reportedly refusing to clean up after or even feed his cat and at one point smearing faeces on the walls. It's miraculous they didn't kick him out years ago.

The actions of the U.S. government* can be condemned as setting an unpleasant precedent without us necessarily rushing to Assange's defence. He is credibly accused of serious crimes up to and including rape, and he has jeopardised the safety of countless private individuals for no credible journalistic reason. This is essentially a case of two heinous organisations (the Dump administration* and Wikileaks, through the synecdoche of Assange) now fighting with one another, and I find myself hoping for nothing so much as that they take each other down. They almost certainly won't, but I've gotta have a dream, dammit.


tl;dr: I basically agree with Ari, but really, Julian Assange is very nearly as awful a human being as Dump is. I can't say this enough. Also, I feel it's important to reiterate this sentence: Non-journalists are still protected by the First Amendment, and journalists still aren't allowed to break the law or solicit others to do the same in the service of journalism. There certainly are important legal concerns here, but let's not go overboard to paint Julian Assange as some sort of free speech/journalistic martyr. He's demonstrated a reckless disregard for the safety of individuals and is a major reason Wikileaks has transitioned from focusing on government wrongdoing to doxxing millions of private individuals and refusing to publish the Panama Papers (and denouncing them as a Soros-funded hoax). Julian Assange is a journalist the way Rudy 9iu11ani is an attorney: he may actually have once been a fairly credible one, but his actions over the last several years have certainly eroded the last vestiges of that credibility.
__________________
Ceterum censeo factionem Republicanam esse delendam.



ďAll for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.Ē -Adam Smith

Foolís Goldlast.fmsoundcloudMarathon Chronicles

Last edited by The Man; 04-22-2019 at 07:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
fragment (04-22-2019), Kamilah Hauptmann (04-21-2019), mickthinks (04-25-2019), slimshady2357 (04-22-2019), Sock Puppet (04-22-2019)
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 0.48753 seconds with 13 queries