Pornography isn't sex, though. From what I understand, people who are said to be porn addicts actually replace sex with porn. That's one of the ways in which the compulsion can be damaging to personal relationships.
Well, I don't think people use this definition most of the time when they talk of being a porn addict.
Say, a guy is married, not so attracted to spouse anymore, so he looks at porn so he can get aroused to be able to preform. Some would say he is a porn addict, but I say that he and his wife should try to fix stuff or he should get unhitched. But, say, this guy sees what he is doing is a sin and he begins to let it torment him. Porn works for him and helps him function sexually, but he is committing a huge and perverse sin. He is filth, the porn is filth, he withdrawls from his wife further because he is ashamed by his filth and a real problem begins.
Say, there is a teenage boy. He is raging in his hormones, but must remain abstinate because sex is a sin. Or because he wants to wait till he finds the right girl, wants to be responsible and does not want to risk exposure to disease or getting a girl preggers. He is so freaking horny all of the time and comes across Daddy's porno, a friend gives him some, or he discovers nekkid girls online. He never saw a nekkid girl before, becomes consumed at this new discovery, combines this wicked act of looking at women, objectifying women as he might have been told, and the sin of masturbation because lusting after a woman is a sinful as fornicating because he thinks if he has sinned in his mind, he is guilty of that sin in reality. So he feels that he is addicted to porn because he is raging with hormones, wants some sort of female, but must settle for videos or stills to satisfy his desires.
Then there are men who seem to say they are addicted to porn because they pull a thing similar to that mayor in Chocolate did when he finally gave into temptation and overindulged. Because sexual things such as porn has to be resisted so horribly and sexual images abound everywhere in modern society and in the media, when he finally does break,he goes on some pornographic orgy.
These are all summations of online testimonials I have read about overcoming porn addiction. True, there are those who are compelled and obsess about porn, spend too much money on it and sex industry related things. As Helen said, they should work on making changes in their lives so they can take better control of their actions. But there are some that simply like porn and appreciate it the way I appreciate collecting my little graven images that I call porcelain dolls. I am very willing to spend good money on a beautiful doll, gorgeous clothes, or literature (I have over a thousand books on my shelves.). The people who might feel the same appreciation of porn are considered scum. I have met some of the porn obsessed and I consider them creepy because of the way I was treated by them, but then, there were some men who were open about their porn appreciation (knowledge via hubby or spouse) and they were nothing like what I would stereotypically think of a pornmonger.
I do think that if one acts on something they think is sinful or vile and perverse, they will place a greater importance on the action.
Helen, I appreciate your comments on emotional dependancy. It is true that everyone can be emotionally dependent. I was not trying to say that non-religious do not have those sort of problems and I apologize that my post might have implied that to you.
In reguard to porn, I know one person who rarely ever looked at porn but thought they were addicted to it because it caused his body to react and since men are stimulated visually, his reaction, in my mind is perfectly normal.
I don't think that every man who views porn has an emotional crutch but I do believe I can add to your post about emotional holes. I am sure there are men who replace a real human companion with things such as porn so that they do not need to have physical contact. Just like the net can often replace a person's social interaction with people IRL.
Anyway, I did not start this thread to bash religious people or to say they are flawed. I gathered the sport's player in question was religious because the way he used some words. Sometimes church people can speaked a churched language without ever mentioning God and I don't think that is a bad thing, it is just part of their certain culture. I also brought up this thread because I only ever hear about porn addiction from religious people.
Helen, I appreciate your comments on emotional dependancy. It is true that everyone can be emotionally dependent. I was not trying to say that non-religious do not have those sort of problems and I apologize that my post might have implied that to you.
You don't need to apologize - I understood you to simply be asking questions about whether non-religious people have the same problems.
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In reguard to porn, I know one person who rarely ever looked at porn but thought they were addicted to it because it caused his body to react and since men are stimulated visually, his reaction, in my mind is perfectly normal.
When I've heard Christians talk about this, they don't say it's wrong to be stimulated; they recognize that that's natural and so they focus rather on encouraging people to avoid the images, or not to dwell on them/fantasize about them if they've inadvertently seen some (or an attractive woman, etc).
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I don't think that every man who views porn has an emotional crutch but I do believe I can add to your post about emotional holes. I am sure there are men who replace a real human companion with things such as porn so that they do not need to have physical contact. Just like the net can often replace a person's social interaction with people IRL.
Exactly.
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Anyway, I did not start this thread to bash religious people or to say they are flawed.
I understand. I didn't think you did.
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I gathered the sport's player in question was religious because the way he used some words. Sometimes church people can speaked a churched language without ever mentioning God and I don't think that is a bad thing, it is just part of their certain culture. I also brought up this thread because I only ever hear about porn addiction from religious people.
I can't recall whether I've heard it elsewhere or not; possibly not. I certainly have heard it from Christians because I listen to a Christian counseling call-in show whose host has written a number of books and holds seminars for men aimed at helping them overcome various sexual addictions.
I am not sure that the type of chemical dependancies discussed can be put in the same bracket as a dependance on pornography. Sex could be classed as a basic animal need whereas drugs must surely be classed as an enhancement (or not) to life.
Sex is a need for the species, but not the individual. People don't die if they don't have sex. I'm not aware there's evidence that they even get sick without it.
Sex is a need for the species, but not the individual. People don't die if they don't have sex. I'm not aware there's evidence that they even get sick without it.
Men are at higher risk for prostate cancer the less frequently they ejaculate. Which doesn't require sex, but does require sex-related stimulation of the mind and body.
All quibbling about the definition of addiction aside, I think people can become addicted to or dependent on the emotional rush and stimulation of viewing porn, just as people do with gambling, for example. I think the reason you don't hear much talk of it in secular circles is because it doesn't affect many people. I suspect it affects more people in fundy religious circles because of the stigma associated with it; I also suspect the term is applied to people in fundy circles who are not addicted to porn, they just like looking at it, because of the erroneous idea that any enjoyment of porn is bad.
Sort of like when I go to the doctor's office and they ask me if I smoke tobacco. I smoke two or three cigars a year; since there are only two options on the forms, "smoker" and "nonsmoker", I get classified in the same group as people who smoke a pack of cigarettes a day.
Sex is a need for the species, but not the individual. People don't die if they don't have sex. I'm not aware there's evidence that they even get sick without it.
Men are at higher risk for prostate cancer the less frequently they ejaculate. Which doesn't require sex, but does require sex-related stimulation of the mind and body.
Evidently not all the researchers are certain enough to tell men to change their sexual habits:
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However, whilst the findings are statistically significant, Leitzmann remains cautious. "I don't believe at this point our research would warrant suggesting men should alter their sexual behaviour in order to modify their risk."
A further caveat is that the benefit of ejaculation was less clear in relation to the most dangerous, metastasising form of prostate cancer, compared to the organ-confined or slow-growing types.
My observation is that addictive tendencies can shift pretty easily. eg when smoking was prohibited in places of work, public buildings etc there was a definite rise in the numbers of people seeking counselling for 'sex addiction'. This rise co-incided with the prohibition on smoking. This would lend one to imagine that it is the underlying problem and not the substance/activity.
The men I know who use porn are not in loving relationships. Chicken and egg...did they go to porn because or did the porn prevent relating. Again based on observing men I know I'd guess that porn can deaden sensitivity and also make it difficult to create a loving relationship because ordinary people (while they might enjoy experimenting to keep sex alive) cannot live up to the fanasy of porn.
if inded it turns out that it does deaden sensitivity and does make ordinary relating more difficult then I'd say it's relevant to the ungodly, although recent history (Church abuses exposed) might also suggest that there's more guilt problems for the godly.
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
My observation is that addictive tendencies can shift pretty easily. eg when smoking was prohibited in places of work, public buildings etc there was a definite rise in the numbers of people seeking counselling for 'sex addiction'. This rise co-incided with the prohibition on smoking. This would lend one to imagine that it is the underlying problem and not the substance/activity.
Causal relationship or serendipity? Correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.
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The men I know who use porn are not in loving relationships. Chicken and egg...did they go to porn because or did the porn prevent relating. Again based on observing men I know I'd guess that porn can deaden sensitivity and also make it difficult to create a loving relationship because ordinary people (while they might enjoy experimenting to keep sex alive) cannot live up to the fanasy of porn.
First, I view the "chicken and egg" aphorism rather the opposite than most, because if an issue is "chicken and egg", then it's clear as to which element has chronological priority...the "egg".
I rather agree with Leonard Shlain's view here. As I understand it, the male of the species is imbued with a high level of male hormone production which assures that his sexual receptivity is always "on" to some degree. That the male is then placed in a society where the female sexual signals are not punctuated in a cyclic episodes of estral receptivity, but partially hidden and spread over a longer period of time, gives rise to what we often refer to as "sexual tension". Indeed, the female of the species is somewhat buffered sexually receptive state nearly 100% of the time, as well.
The male is "on" almost all the time, and in order to satiate the desire driven by the hormones to procreate, must negotiate with a female to actually engage in the behavior he so desires. But the female of the species, once cognizant of the potentials of the procreative act for her, seeks to protect herself by limiting access in search of an assurance of responsibility in the event of impregnation.
Porn, and prostitution, are means by which male humans may obtain sexual release without relationship obligation.
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if inded it turns out that it does deaden sensitivity and does make ordinary relating more difficult then I'd say it's relevant to the ungodly, although recent history (Church abuses exposed) might also suggest that there's more guilt problems for the godly.
Is there any evidence that porn use "deadens sensitivity"? I'd think there would be some kind of studies to assess the affect of porn on relationships.
Oh well that settles it then. We, males are mere machines driven by testosterone and can't help outselves and when a female thinks it better she doesn't risk pregnancy and being left alone (ie says no) then we can't help outselves, we need porn. What a load of hogwash.
Godfrey, if you wait for Studies to show you everything in life then when do you observe and think for youself? I don't need some twit twisting statistics to tell me that the men I've known who regularly use porn do not have relationships.
For a start I notice they tend to objectify women.
Also I don't need a Kinsey report to tell me that ordinary people can't live up to the fantasy of porn. so to porn habituees regular love making must seem rather boring and unstimulating.
I enjoy erotica usually in the written form (Anais Ninn etc) and find porn to be dehumanising and distasteful because those who talk about it do not inspire me with any warmth or sensitivity but mere low level, instictive pleasure...no wonder some think it addictive...such relfex pleasure would indeed appear to require more and weirder stimulus.
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
My observation is that addictive tendencies can shift pretty easily. eg when smoking was prohibited in places of work, public buildings etc there was a definite rise in the numbers of people seeking counselling for 'sex addiction'. This rise co-incided with the prohibition on smoking. This would lend one to imagine that it is the underlying problem and not the substance/activity.
Do you have a source for this information (no I am not being pedantic I just want to read about it. I believe wholeheartedly that many people replace compulsions and addicitions)?
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The men I know who use porn are not in loving relationships. Chicken and egg...did they go to porn because or did the porn prevent relating. Again based on observing men I know I'd guess that porn can deaden sensitivity and also make it difficult to create a loving relationship because ordinary people (while they might enjoy experimenting to keep sex alive) cannot live up to the fanasy of porn.
Most people know that porn is not realistic. Only very young and inexperienced people, in my experience, expect people to "live up to" porn.
As I wrote it was my observation gained while talking to people in the field who were intrigued by the dramatic increase in one form and the decline in the other. As service providers they had to adjust their work from tobacco to sex.
Generally I don't pay too much attention to academic reports. Particularly when it comes to human behaviour. I think the last study I put attention into was a Swiss study which suggested that having breast milk was good for a baby's immune system. It's exactly that sort of nonsense that has driven me away from reductionist science (except in mechanics) and another is the use of researchers to provide the results required. I deal with what's in front of me and when a lot of people who were formerly smokers now turn up with sex problems it suggests to me that the addictive tendency isn't too fussy about the medium.
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
?? I simply mean most men do not expect women to moan and pant when you merely touch their breasts or whatever even though that's what is depicted in much mainstream porn
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As I wrote it was my observation gained while talking to people in the field who were intrigued by the dramatic increase in one form and the decline in the other. As service providers they had to adjust their work from tobacco to sex.
People in what field? Providers of what service? Psychologists or addiction counselors or something?
Can you please try to be more specific so I don't have to pepper you with questions, that might help us communicate.
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Generally I don't pay too much attention to academic reports. Particularly when it comes to human behaviour. I think the last study I put attention into was a Swiss study which suggested that having breast milk was good for a baby's immune system. It's exactly that sort of nonsense that has driven me away from reductionist science (except in mechanics) and another is the use of researchers to provide the results required.
Um, what is nonsensical about breast milk helping with immune system development?
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I deal with what's in front of me and when a lot of people who were formerly smokers now turn up with sex problems it suggests to me that the addictive tendency isn't too fussy about the medium.
But where do you encounter these poeple? How do you know "a lot of former smokers turned up with sex problems"? Do you see the need to include SOMETHING, otherwise we are just expected to accept your anecdotes as representative of all people everywhere.
I think someone has no idea of how many married men are also into porn and masturbation, some of them even happily married.
An old line: "There are two kinds of men, those that masturbate and those that lie about it."
Helen is right though, humans don't need sex, they won't get sick or die if they don't get it. I've even heard that some artists believe that total abstinence leads to more creativity. I suppose I'll never actually know if that is true or not.
Um, what is nonsensical about breast milk helping with immune system development?
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I'm pretty sure there has been more than one study supporting that conclusion.
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About 20 studies.
YES, that's the point... breastfeeding isn't nonsensical....having to have people waste resources to tell us something called common sense is. So much modern science is of this ilk. It just isn't necessary. People have forgotten how to be human and now we even need a bloody diagram on a milk carton to tell us how to open it!!!!!! We (humanilty) don't need these studies and they do nothing for my disregard for the scientific process).
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your anecdotes as representative of all people everywhere.
Well that's silly...making it universal. It turned up at a training intensive..talking with counsellors from different parts of the country...finding that the experience was not just in one area....led us to discuss the elasticity of addiction...and that it was the underlying problem which needed addressing not the particular addiction itself (although many become self-harming so I don't mean we didn't care about the form of the addiction). That's it...if you're interested...start a study....
I use what works and I don't care where it comes from . Despite the mocking of Mindell (so easy to mock that which is new and a little different) his work has given me some important insights and methods which work very well. As long as they work I don't give a damn if the guy hangs upside down in a bat cape. If they don't work then I don't care how much (academic) authority lies behind them , I toss them out of my took-kit.
It ought to be obvious by now that beyond mechanics I find Science "as repressive today as the Church was in medaeval times." I don't know how to be more clear....I'm not interested in studies and pseudo science ...for that's what it is when it pretends to research humans. There is a new paradigm emerging for the study of ourselves and I subscribe to that and if something is useful to people then I don't poo hoo it out of hand because it's not endorsed by Whitehead, or Popper.
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
YES, that's the point... breastfeeding isn't nonsensical....having to have people waste resources to tell us something called common sense is.
So because it's common sense that breastfeeding is a good idea, it's useless to study the physical benefits of breastfeeding? Is that what you're trying to say? If so it's the craziest thing I've heard all week.
Is that what you're trying to say? If so it's the craziest thing I've heard all week.
Well Godless Dave I pity you. You would appear to have lost touch (and you're not alone let's face it) with what being human means. And if you need to go around studying or waiting for others to publish nonsense for its own sake then go for it.
Heavens how did homo sapiens manage to survive without the Western Scientific Experimental Method and it's damned statistics?
Once upon a time there was human wisdom. We've all but lost it now and the world shows the resulting madness.
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*offers onthedole cookies*
Sorry Adora...may have been some sort of compliment (and god only knows I need a few) but I don't get your statement.
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
Part of being human is having a brain and using it.
exactly...so use it and don't wait around for some twit to have it published before you take action. I mean really! Mothers, so you seem to be saying, needed to be told that what they were doing was good? How bent is that?
__________________
Any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankind;
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee. (John Donne)
There has been a significant trend in the past several decades toward bottle-feeding all over the world, no doubt driven by the increase in women working outside the home. People study that sort of shit to see if that is beneficial or detrimental. Study after study shows that breastfeeding is most beneficial. Women already "know" what they need to do? Well, someone was buying all that baby formula and it wasn't the babies.
There has been a significant trend in the past several decades toward bottle-feeding all over the world, no doubt driven by the increase in women working outside the home.
And also driven by the baby-formula industry. Studies such as the one onthedole is criticizing are useful in countering the marketing strategies of corporations who have a vested interest in discouraging breast feeding.
Re: Is porn addiction relevant in the ungodly?
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