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Old 02-04-2013, 01:20 PM
thathumanbeing thathumanbeing is offline
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Alert Sex changes

Are they wrong? Is it okay to change something apart of your body simply because you are unhappy with it or believe that your a male in a females body?
Today a teacher at my school that was lesbian told my whole year level that she went through a sex change i give her my respect for being brave telling the school, everyone is acting as if she is inspiring and a role model and as ignorant or naive i may sound but i just don't see anything for anyone to be inspired about.
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

I'm opposed to clownfish because of this whole sex change issue.

Finding Nemo is transsexual propaganda!
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

I still don't understand how anyone is okay with having a trainsexual vice president.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:22 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

People don't undergo sex change operations on a lark. Generally, they do it so that their body matches the way they see themselves.
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:03 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

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Originally Posted by Gonzo View Post
I still don't understand how anyone is okay with having a trainsexual vice president.
:thrust::train:
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Why do I have the strange feeling this is a trap? :D

Basic response to being outside the politically correct line of questioning is that you need to "check your privilege," (means you should come back when you agree with the PC position hook line and sinker) that "it's not our job to educate you" (means we insist you understand, but not to the point where we think we need to give you information) and you should walk away from this thread until you've learned to appreciate why the official PC line of thinking is always, invariably correct.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:17 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Heh? Or you could just leave off of the judge-y McJudgey stuff and let people work it out for themselves. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my bank..

Of course won't matter if the drones get you....
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:23 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by thathumanbeing View Post
Are they wrong?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thathumanbeing View Post
Is it okay to change something apart of your body simply because you are unhappy with it or believe that your a male in a females body?
Oversimplified and slanted question, but: yes.
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Things we won't be talking about:
1)Whether someone focused on conforming their body to meet the social expectations of what that gender is supposed to look like is actually reinforcing the gender stereotypes or not.
2)Whether or not it is your duty to discuss someone's extreme desire to alter their body in a way that questions their decision enough to be sure that if they still want to do it they have no other choice.
3)Why SRS patients always have bigger breasts than most cis women, wear more more stereotypically female clothing than most cis women and put on twice as much makeup as most cis women.
4)Why men who identify female and don't like their bodies or women who identify as male and don't like their bodies are any different than cis women who don't like their bodies and cis men that don't like their bodies.
5)Whether or not the sex you consider yourself to be has any connection whatsoever with the body you sport. (yes, that's #1 reworded but slightly different)

Nevertheless, if someone makes a decision to alter themselves in some way and they've done it, you should support their change and love them just as you would do if they hadn't done it... because it's the person inside that matters. I still count on my friends to talk me out of doing stupid things though. Without them I'd have done some pretty fucked up things.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by koan View Post
Things we won't be talking about:
:orly:
Quote:
1)Whether someone focused on conforming their body to meet the social expectations of what that gender is supposed to look like is actually reinforcing the gender stereotypes or not.
Quite probably, but since our daily interactions with society are still almost universally mired in those stereotypes, it does not seem especially hypocritical to speak out against them without begrudging the efforts of others to fall within them, at least to the point of not being harassed or accosted when trying to buy groceries.
Quote:
2)Whether or not it is your duty to discuss someone's extreme desire to alter their body in a way that questions their decision enough to be sure that if they still want to do it they have no other choice.
Your "duty" as random internet stranger, or passerby on the street? Fuck no. Your "duty" as close friend or relative? Maybe. Your "duty" as therapist or medical professional? Probably.
Quote:
3)Why SRS patients always have bigger breasts than most cis women, wear more more stereotypically female clothing than most cis women and put on twice as much makeup as most cis women.
ALWAYS, huh? I don't think this warrants a serious response, but think about what you really mean here and maybe rephrase it. Maybe there's a serious question or point, under the histrionic gender policing that you would certainly call out were it about anyone other than trans people.
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4)Why men who identify female and don't like their bodies or women who identify as male and don't like their bodies are any different than cis women who don't like their bodies and cis men that don't like their bodies.
Are they? Cis men or women who don't like their bodies often do quite a lot to change them in our society, often encouraged by our media and stereotypes, and at least some of the time in decidedly unhealthy ways. So what was the difference you were trying to point out?
Quote:
5)Whether or not the sex you consider yourself to be has any connection whatsoever with the body you sport. (yes, that's #1 reworded but slightly different)
Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. I'm not certain why you are so insistent on treating Trans as some kind of universal category about which broad, sweeping generalizations can be made.

Quote:
Nevertheless, if someone makes a decision to alter themselves in some way and they've done it, you should support their change and love them just as you would do if they hadn't done it... because it's the person inside that matters.
Pretty much, yeah. Doesn't seem that complicated to me, though of course like any interaction or relationship that doesn't mean it can't be difficult.
Quote:
I still count on my friends to talk me out of doing stupid things though. Without them I'd have done some pretty fucked up things.
Friends are great like that, when you have good ones that truly care about you.
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  #11  
Old 02-07-2013, 12:09 AM
Kashmir Kashmir is offline
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by koan View Post
Basic response to being outside the politically correct line of questioning is that you need to "check your privilege," (means you should come back when you agree with the PC position hook line and sinker) that "it's not our job to educate you" (means we insist you understand, but not to the point where we think we need to give you information) and you should walk away from this thread until you've learned to appreciate why the official PC line of thinking is always, invariably correct.
While I don't agree with the OP's transphobia view . . .

The problem with political correctness is that it is untenable at bottom. No matter what you say, you will offend someone.

You and I have no problem making fun of ridiculous cultural, political or religious beliefs. Well, guess what, that hurts people's feelings.

What cultures, religions, etc. are protected by PC, and which aren't? Why are they while others are not? Seems that PC supposes that some positions are more correct than others. *Gasp*

Is it okay to criticize someone for abusing alcohol and other drugs, having sex with their brothers or sisters, or being a pedophile, but they restrict themselves to only looking at lollicon? Who are they hurting besides themselves? Respect their lifestyle choice!
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  #12  
Old 02-07-2013, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

As relevant now as it was nearly 7 years ago.

So-Called Political Correctness - Freethought Forum
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:08 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Today's "social warrior whatever" is yesterday's "PC".

Bunch of Maoists around here, I tell you what.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

:inscrutable:
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

There is some conceivable perspective or suitably vague description from which X (machine guns, say, or transphobic slurs) and Y (butter knives, any arbitrary utterance) can, to some non-zero degree, be seen as sharing properties. Therefore, to apply some principles of practical ethics to X that one does not apply equally to Y is foolish, misguided, probably hysterical moralizing. Ha ha! People who use moral language sure are PC!

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Is it okay to criticize someone for abusing alcohol and other drugs, having sex with their brothers or sisters, or being a pedophile, but they restrict themselves to only looking at lollicon? Who are they hurting besides themselves? Respect their lifestyle choice!
Why don't you have a throw at answering that question? It may not be quite the punchline you take yourself to have discovered.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Some :ff: people think it's (somewhat) okay to mock new categories of people such as 'trailer trash': they wouldn't be rude to the actual people but it's more-or-less okay to make fun of them when discussing with their friends.

But if the category has some history and tradition, such as the Romani, then it's much more dangerous territory, not just at :ff: but in society in general. You'll be a little uncertain which words are safe to use: Romani / Romany / Roma / Traveller / Gypsy :chin: Some of the terms might be offensive - maybe it's better just not to discuss the topic at all...

You might be able to think of other newish categories: gun nuts, Walmart shoppers and such which are also fair game for discussion and ridicule here, and try to think if there are any more traditional but similar groups that are not.

It's difficult to predict what terms might become offensive in the future: you just have to keep your ears and eyes open and modify your language whenever you become aware that what you used to think was normal and okay has now been deemed socially unacceptable.
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Old 02-07-2013, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Some :ff: people think it's (somewhat) okay to mock new categories of people such as 'trailer trash': they wouldn't be rude to the actual people but it's more-or-less okay to make fun of them when discussing with their friends.

But if the category has some history and tradition, such as the Romani, then it's much more dangerous territory, not just at :ff: but in society in general. You'll be a little uncertain which words are safe to use: Romani / Romany / Roma / Traveller / Gypsy :chin: Some of the terms might be offensive - maybe it's better just not to discuss the topic at all...

You might be able to think of other newish categories: gun nuts, Walmart shoppers and such which are also fair game for discussion and ridicule here, and try to think if there are any more traditional but similar groups that are not.

It's difficult to predict what terms might become offensive in the future: you just have to keep your ears and eyes open and modify your language whenever you become aware that what you used to think was normal and okay has now been deemed socially unacceptable.
It's probably fair to observe that, if Walmart shoppers were subjected to discriminatory laws in many nations over the years and had been targeted for genocide by a major Western power within living memory, there might be non-arbitrary moral grounds for thinking twice about how one's language reinforced negative views about them. "New" vs. "traditional" seems to under-describe the difference fairly dramatically, in other words, while the "deeming" process is rather less obscure than might be thought from what you've written.
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  #18  
Old 02-07-2013, 07:06 PM
Kashmir Kashmir is offline
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Munny View Post
Why don't you have a throw at answering that question? It may not be quite the punchline you take yourself to have discovered.
Assuming the alcoholic doesn't have a family to support, isn't a violent drunk, and doesn't drink and drive--all of which are very possible for an alcoholic to do, then yeah, they're not hurting anyone but themselves.

Siblings fucking of their own free will and pedophiles spanking it to cartoons, nah, I'm not going to touch that.

Last edited by Kashmir; 02-07-2013 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Some :ff: people think it's (somewhat) okay to mock new categories of people such as 'trailer trash': they wouldn't be rude to the actual people but it's more-or-less okay to make fun of them when discussing with their friends.
Or even old. Anglos have lived in Appalachia for centuries. Why is snake handling during church any crazier than believing a piece of bread literally turns into Jesus-meat?

Why is moonshining worthy of derision, but growing weed isn't?

Tell me these people aren't subject to prejudice because of their accent, their poverty, and hurtful stereotypes that they are inbred yokels.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: Sex changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kashmir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Some :ff: people think it's (somewhat) okay to mock new categories of people such as 'trailer trash': they wouldn't be rude to the actual people but it's more-or-less okay to make fun of them when discussing with their friends.
Or even old. Anglos have lived in Appalachia for centuries. Why is snake handling during church any crazier than believing a piece of bread literally turns into Jesus-meat?
I can think of a reason... :deadpoke:

Anyway, I do agree that you can get away with a lot when talking about 'white trash' or 'trailer trash' or 'chavs' in the UK.
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  #21  
Old 02-08-2013, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

I think that some women are born with small tits, some are born with large ones, some are born with none and a penis.

I think that some men are born with small dicks, some with large, and some are born with tits and no penis at all.

I think that you can't simultaneously say that sex organs DON'T define a person's gender and change your sex organs to reflect your gender. Well, okay, you can, but you'd be ironic.


also, I retract my earlier point about trans people over exaggerating the way they dress etc. I was picturing the stereotype and wrongly tossed that in. I do not think that my concerns of hypocrisy have been debunked. The reason why I think it's important is that children are being sterilized with transgender therapies at an age too young to acquire their consent. Reproductive rights are not being balanced with gender expression rights. Though I agree that no one should be discriminated against based on their physical appearance and choice of public presentation, I don't think we should let our acceptance encourage medical intervention with children.

Other questions for comparison: Was Michael Jackson a white person trapped in a black body? Was Dennis Avner a cat trapped in a human body?

Though many children show convincing evidence of gender dysphoria, they don't seem to want to alter their bodies until they encounter society which tells them what defines boys and girls. Which came first?

I think that if you truly don't believe sex organs decide gender (and I agree) then changing your sex organs is irrelevant to your expression of gender. Many people disagree with me. I would really like, though, if we could agree that medical intervention in children under the age of consent should be prevented.
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Last edited by koan; 02-08-2013 at 04:16 AM. Reason: corrected double negative
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:26 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

I don't think that any boys are born with large penises nor girls born with big tits :duck:

Anyway, I think that probably fewer transgender people would choose certain forms of sex change surgery if society were more inclined to consider transwomen to be women even if they have a penis, and likewise for transmen. And I think that most trans activists would agree that not making acceptance contingent on sex change surgery would be a good goal.

I will remark a little bit about the types of surgery available. While all of them can have complications, I think that FTM "top" surgery (breast removal) is probably on the whole the most successful. Breast implants are also pretty successful, although they can cause loss of sensitivity in the nipples, for example. MTF bottom surgery on the other hand, requires continuous upkeep and the result will not function as well as a cisgender woman's vagina (whether that's simply limited to lacking the lubrication and musculature, or it could be not sexually sensitive). FTM bottom surgery is even less successful, as the result is said not to be particularly aesthetic, erections won't happen naturally, etc. etc. My impression is that FTM bottom surgery is much less popular because of it's significantly greater problems than the other surgeries.

So there are some real problems with the surgeries. The extent that people would or would not choose such surgery is definitely related to the quality of the surgery available. The fact that MTF bottom surgery is much more popular than FTM bottom surgery attests to that. So even if society was much more accepting of NOT getting a sex change, can we really say that many trans people would not choose it IF those surgeries were much better (as they certainly will be as medical science improves)? That is, if they could magically get fully functional sex organs that match their gender, how many would turn it down? If in the future we can create fully functional penises and vaginas, would it be much more popular?

There are trade-offs between how comfortable they are with their current bodies, how much pressure society puts on them and the cost and quality of the surgeries available. And I don't know that if the problems with society were reduced to essentially zero that you wouldn't find significant numbers of transgender people still opting for surgery. And doubtless even more would choose surgery the better and more affordable the surgeries get.

Anyway, the fact is that we don't live in a society where a transgender person will necessarily get the kind of acceptance they want without having any surgery. Even if some of them are reacting to pressure from society, why should I go around telling them their choices are invalid? If that's what they need to do to live their lives in society the way they want? Should they be damned if they do (by queer activists) and damned if they don't (by mainstream society)? Maybe they are caving to pressure. Maybe they think it was worth it to achieve the acceptance they wanted. Should I berate them for not living up to my standard of activism?

The emphasis should be on convincing people that not having a sex change is a valid choice rather than on telling people their choice to get one is invalid, which is what seems to be your emphasis.

And as my sister will be making decisions about what surgeries to get herself soon, I intend to ask her to make sure she's considering these angles, since, yes, I think it's good to keep in mind you will be trading functioning genitalia for something less functional and to consider whether your motivation is more internal or external. Probably, however, she has thought about these issues more than I have. And it's a bit presumptuous to assume that you have thought more about it as well. So when she makes her choice, it will not be up to me to second guess her or tell her she was wrong.

*******************

As for the issue of treatments for children, the thing is that you're running up against a problem when you want to discourage it. That problem is that hormone treatments that start before puberty are much, much more successful in achieving an appearance that matches the desired gender. A transgirl's voice will not get deeper. She will not get body hair. She will not grow tall with shoulders broad. A transboy will not get breasts. He will get body hair and a more masculine frame rather than wide hips and so forth. I don't know the effects on the genitals, but I imagine they're probably preferable in some ways (particularly for transboys). Not only will it be basically effortless for them to "pass", but they have a much better chance of being considered attractive for their gender as well.

So you're saying that they should forgo treatment that they do, in fact, want (even if you don't think they can truly consent to it, they certainly can want it) and that will, if they want hormone treatments or surgery later, make it much simpler (breast surgery would be unnecessary) and more successful on the basis of your assumption that nobody would choose to have these treatments if there were no social consequences for not getting them. And that they should not be given them if their motivation is mostly or partly social, regardless of the consequences to their lives.

I think, however, at our current level of understanding, it might be that we should not progress beyond puberty blockers for young children (puberty blockers delay puberty while the child is on them, but if they are stopped, puberty will progress normally).

If you can find it, you should check out Call Me Kade which is a video about a young transboy between the ages of about 11 to 14 or 15, and how his parents deal with the issue of hormone treatments.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2013, 05:32 AM
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Default Re: Sex changes

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As for the issue of treatments for children, the thing is that you're running up against a problem when you want to discourage it. That problem is that hormone treatments that start before puberty are much, much more successful in achieving an appearance that matches the desired gender. A transgirl's voice will not get deeper. She will not get body hair. She will not grow tall with shoulders broad. A transboy will not get breasts. He will get body hair and a more masculine frame rather than wide hips and so forth. I don't know the effects on the genitals, but I imagine they're probably preferable in some ways (particularly for transboys). Not only will it be basically effortless for them to "pass", but they have a much better chance of being considered attractive for their gender as well.

So you're saying that they should forgo treatment that they do, in fact, want (even if you don't think they can truly consent to it, they certainly can want it) and that will, if they want hormone treatments or surgery later, make it much simpler (breast surgery would be unnecessary) and more successful on the basis of your assumption that nobody would choose to have these treatments if there were no social consequences for not getting them. And that they should not be given them if their motivation is mostly or partly social, regardless of the consequences to their lives.

I think, however, at our current level of understanding, it might be that we should not progress beyond puberty blockers for young children (puberty blockers delay puberty while the child is on them, but if they are stopped, puberty will progress normally).

If you can find it, you should check out Call Me Kade which is a video about a young transboy between the ages of about 11 to 14 or 15, and how his parents deal with the issue of hormone treatments.
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  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > Sexuality


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