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  #26  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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And why is it that it can only be construed that way, as opposed to talking about their military and manufacturing base? I don't see any particular reason to think that she wasn't merely being hyperbolic (words like "destroy" and "obliterate" being frequently used in this way, to mean "defeat soundly").

It's weird how you and Watser don't apply this sort of literal analysis to the slogans "Death to Israel" or "Death to America" though, which are used by Muslim leaders in a few countries and organizations, including by the Iranian government.
It's weird that you need to make this kind of lame excuse for someone you vote for.

And it's not just that you voted for her, that you think she would have made a better president, but that you think she would have made a GOOD president...

And that you feel the need to point out that it's all our fault, the people who refused to vote for her. As if she is fucking entitled. And that is the arrogance I am talking about. Not just once, no every fucking time anyone who opposed her points out something bad Trump does, you just have to come in and point out that it's all our fault. Why is that? Because you know it's a stupid lie?
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  #27  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Quote:
And why is it that it can only be construed that way, as opposed to talking about their military and manufacturing base? I don't see any particular reason to think that she wasn't merely being hyperbolic (words like "destroy" and "obliterate" being frequently used in this way, to mean "defeat soundly").

It's weird how you and Watser don't apply this sort of literal analysis to the slogans "Death to Israel" or "Death to America" though, which are used by Muslim leaders in a few countries and organizations, including by the Iranian government.
It's weird that you need to make this kind of lame excuse for someone you vote for.
Yeah, lame excuses like "pretty typical use of non-literal language".

It's lame that you're bothering with inane literalist attacks.
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And that you feel the need to point out that it's all our fault, the people who refused to vote for her.
You didn't refuse, you couldn't. It doesn't make much of a difference that you can't vote here tho, since you would never vote in a way that could make a difference.

But anyway, I never said it was "all your fault". I said it was partially your fault. It's partially my fault too, for not donating more money or volunteering more, etc. It's partially a lot of people's faults.

I point out that the claims you and davidm made were wrong. You reject voting for the lesser evil, so I point out when you're experiencing the greater evil. You didn't think it was worth it to try to prevent this sort of thing because Hillary was also bad. Why does that bother you?
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Not just once, no every fucking time anyone who opposed her points out something bad Trump does, you just have to come in and point out that it's all our fault. Why is that? Because you know it's a stupid lie?
Because you said some stupid shit last year, and you continue to say the same stupid shit now?
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
No, it wasn't all clear and it still isn't [that Trump is worse than Clinton].
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
And yes, the good news is it will make the US even less relevant in the Middle East
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
There is no difference between Democratic assholes and Republican assholes when it comes to the Middle East.
He says in a thread that's about how the Republican Trump administration is making an explosive move in the Middle East that Democratic presidents never did and there was no hint Clinton would've done.
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
You would happily have supported Killary's war.
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I see why you smug assholes manage to lose elections even from moronic fuckwits like Trump. You'll lose the next one too because you haven't changed a bit.
I mean, literally, you're advising about how to win elections when you vote for parties that get 0.3% of the vote in the Netherlands, which is more left-wing than the US! No party that could win your vote could win a federal election in the US, they can't even win a single seat in the Netherlands, which has proportional representation! And your dumb-ass thinks that appealing to you is the way to win.

You can't accept that most voters don't agree with you, and democracy means that you will never be satisfied. Instead of jerking myself off by voting Green Party, I accept this and vote for candidates I think will be better, or that I think are good but not great. But you want to act like your choice to jerk yourself off on your moral purity makes you better, while whining that someone else acts superior.
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  #28  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

You say I’m bringing up “old shit.” How is this “old shit” not relevant? Politicians are judged on their records. You didn’t respond to the point that Hillary voted for the war in Iraq — by itself enough to disqualify her from office. You didn’t respond to the fact that Hillary certainly did not oppose her husband’s stranglehold sanctions on Iraq that caused so many innocent Iraqis, children among them, to suffer and die.

She said she would “totally obliterate” Iran. What part of this statement makes you think she meant only their “military and manufacturing base”? And even if she DID mean that, how many innocent people would die in such an atrocity? You mean it’s OK if she meant, “we won’t bomb rural areas”?

You didn’t respond to my point that Israel itself has nuclear weapons, which means it can defend itself. Why in the world would the U.S. even need to “totally obliterate” another country on Israel’s behalf? Why in hell are we supporting Israel anyway? I don’t think Israel deserves one dime from the U.S. I think Israel should give back the land it stole from Palestine.

And who the hell cares about chants of “Death to America” by Iran and others? The situations are totally asymmetrical. Palestine, Iran, and others have no power to destroy America — their chants really are hyperbole, but also the hyperbole of peoples who have been victimized by Israel and the U.S. Are you forgetting 1953? Because the Iranians sure aren’t. Nor should they, ever.
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  #29  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

I don't want them to appeal to me, I just want them to not make me puke. Not unreasonable IMO. But in order to get the voters you need to win, you may want to stop insulting them. But you never will. You really, really, really want everyone to know it's all somebody else's fault, never yours and certainly not Hillary's. So yeah, keep that up if you want to lose the next election.

But anyway, I'm done responding to your vindictive crap. I don't come into the whiney threats where you pretend to be the 'resistance' to pick a fight. And since you can't even do the same, I'm gonna make you disappear and you can continue to rant against the wind.
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  #30  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
You say I’m bringing up “old shit.”
It's particularly funny since he brings this crap into every thread where someone mentions Trump.
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  #31  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Anyway, so after Trump pissed in Mahmoud Abbas' face, Pence is now butt hurt that Abbas doesn't want to meet with him.

White House: Pence still plans to meet Palestinian leader - POLITICO

This is the same kind of arrogance...
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  #32  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:29 PM
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News Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
And yes, the good news is it will make the US even less relevant in the Middle East: Trump's move to recognise Israel could overturn US role in the region
In fact probably in the world.

Germany must stop relying on U.S. for foreign policy: foreign minister | Reuters

But no, it's not just Trump, it's the US in general.

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“The U.S.’s retreat (from its international role) is not due to the policies of only one president. It will not change fundamentally after the next elections,” he said.
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  #33  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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“This situation in reality under these conditions makes Iran’s work in forming a resistance front with a focus on defending Palestine easier,” Zaeri wrote in Tasnim News Agency.
Iran hard-liners welcome Trump decision on Jerusalem
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2017, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

2008: Obama recognises Jerusalem as capital of Israel - YouTube
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  #35  
Old 12-08-2017, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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You say I’m bringing up “old shit.” How is this “old shit” not relevant?
Please explain to me why, even though Clinton was Secretary of State for four years, and ran for president for over a year, and thus has discussed Iran extensively in public since that quote that is your go-to, to the point that you write a whole post about it without mentioning any other evidence?

Why don't you have some evidence from during the election, for example?
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Politicians are judged on their records.
A record consists of more than one quote, dipshit.
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You didn’t respond to the point that Hillary voted for the war in Iraq — by itself enough to disqualify her from office. You didn’t respond to the fact that Hillary certainly did not oppose her husband’s stranglehold sanctions on Iraq that caused so many innocent Iraqis, children among them, to suffer and die.
Would you like to concede that Watser hasn't responded to my points about his voting behavior in the Netherlands accomplishing nothing, hasn't responded to the evidence I laid out for why it was clear that the anti-Muslim demagogue who praised war crimes against Muslims would not favor Muslims, hasn't provided any evidence of me being a cheerleader for US wars, that his claim that Schumer gave Trump the idea was highly dubious, hasn't conceded that he was making irrelevant nitpicking because I didn't acknowledge the small minority of non-Muslim Palestinians, ignored every foreign policy issue I mentioned except Iran, ignores the evidence of Russia's election meddling, and ignored the long list of positive policies I mentioned... means that Watser has no response to it? And I guess now he's put me on ignore, so no response will be forthcoming.

We have discussed the issue of Iraq many times, and you brought it up to support the notion that she would bomb Iran's entire population, a claim which simply does not follow logically.

I provided more relevant evidence: namely, what Clinton said about Iran during the fucking campaign. And you want me to concede that something dumb she said 8 years ago, before working extensively on the issue of Iran as Sec of State is all the evidence you need to conclude that war with Iran would be inevitable under Clinton?

And even though that dumb statement is premised on Iran launching nukes at our ally, not just for pursuing nukes, or for violating sanctions, but basically stating what would be a fairly mainstream notion: the US will retaliate to nuclear strikes on our allies with overwhelming force. Reiterating that publicly has meaning too, and makes Iran out to be far more threatening than it is, which is the more objectionable part (not the stupid shit where you pretend like she pledged to commit genocide because language is only literal or non-literal, truthful or insincere pandering based on whether it helps your arguments), and I agree that it was dumb. But this isn't equivalent to Trump's behavior with North Korea, despite your idiotic false equivalency.

You just criticize her statement, which is justifiable, but do no work to connect the dots of how it actually demonstrates the conclusion you're defending. You wouldn't let peacegirl get away with this kind of shitty argument.
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She said she would “totally obliterate” Iran. What part of this statement makes you think she meant only their “military and manufacturing base”?
The fact that "obliterate" is commonly used to mean "defeat utterly" seems pretty good reason to think she meant it that way, along with the fact that pledges to defeat utterly are far more common than pledges to exterminate a population, and if she were dedicated to the genocide of the Persian people you'd have more fucking evidence than a one sentence statement about an incredibly unlikely scenario. You are perfectly capable of understanding non-literal usage of language, spare me this idiocy.
Quote:
You didn’t respond to my point that Israel itself has nuclear weapons, which means it can defend itself.
I agree, our relationship with Israel should be reevaluated. But I don't see what it has to do with whether war with Iran would be inevitable under Clinton, so I didn't bother responding because it was irrelevant.

If your point was "Clinton is too friendly to Israel", I would agree. But that's not the claim you're defending.
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And who the hell cares about chants of “Death to America” by Iran and others? The situations are totally asymmetrical. Palestine, Iran, and others have no power to destroy America — their chants really are hyperbole, but also the hyperbole of peoples who have been victimized by Israel and the U.S.
But if Iran acquired nuclear weapons, and ICBMs, they would have the power to kill millions of Americans. Which is precisely what the Iran deal is about, of course - preventing them from getting the power to do so.

Like I said, you're perfectly capable of understanding hyperbole when it suits your purposes.
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Are you forgetting 1953? Because the Iranians sure aren’t. Nor should they, ever.
I'm not forgetting it.

Coincidentally, my friend Rouzbeh, who I was visiting over the weekend, has been reading about US history, and was saying to me that he thought Eisenhower was one of the better presidents of the past century. I said, sure, I would say he was one of the best Republicans (the bar there is very low), but didn't the overthrow of Mossadegh occur under Eisenhower?

I spent a lot of time with Rouzbeh, and some time with his circle of Persian* friends last year, and none of them said that they thought Clinton would go to war with Iran. I've heard no expressions of relief that Clinton isn't in there warmongering against Iran. It turns out, however, that they can't go home without losing the ability to come back to the US because Trump has banned Iranians from entering the US.

*From Iran, most of them did not grow up in the US
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
I don't want them to appeal to me, I just want them to not make me puke.
Ok, substitute "not make you puke" for "appeal to you", and it works just as well.
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Not unreasonable IMO.
If every party that can get more than 0.3% of the vote makes you puke, then you seem pretty unreasonable.

I guess you really are too pure for this world.
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You really, really, really want everyone to know it's all somebody else's fault, never yours and certainly not Hillary's.
I haven't said that, but you keep on saying that I say it.

I guess I will use your logic and say you love Assad and support his crimes against humanity. Since you are constantly defending him from claims that he is using chemical weapons and such, this must mean that you think he does nothing wrong. Nothing is his fault.
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I don't come into the whiney threats where you pretend to be the 'resistance' to pick a fight.
I don't think my tone in that thread is particularly whiny. I'm just going in the :ff: tradition of making punny/cutesy thread names. I didn't come up with the name "the resistance" and I wouldn't describe myself as such, but I used it for the thread title because it's in the news.

You can't even come up with good stuff to be a petty shit about.
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
It's particularly funny since he brings this crap into every thread where someone mentions Trump.
Whereas you would never bring your Israel-Palestine obsession into a thread that wasn't about Israel-Palestine conflict :jerkoff:

I've been a dick about twits who acted like Clinton was just as bad as Trump for a year or so, but you've been a sanctimonious shit for years, and I mostly let it slide for years because we were broadly in agreement (and we still do agree about most political issues, although you would probably deny it because you don't like me).
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  #36  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:05 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Oh god, for some reason I assumed you were even accurately portraying what she said. Apparently, I was far too charitable to you.

The actual quote is "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran [if it attacked Israel]," Clinton said. "In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

She said the US would be able to obliterate them! In subsequent statements, she said there would be "massive retaliation" and Iran would "face a tremendous cost". Obama responded to it as hyperbole, rather than accusing her of pledging genocide, which would probably have been an attack they would have used had Clinton seriously been doing so. You also implied that she said this repeatedly, yet the only reference I can get for "Clinton obliterate Iran" refers to the 2008 statement.

It is straight up dishonesty to portray that as promising to exterminate the population of Iran.

ETA: And of course, all of this was to single out the one issue I mentioned that Watser thought was most favorable, when the point was that he prioritizes positions on Israel-Palestine above everything else, and I don't. For the crime of considering foreign policy and environmental issues and yes, even domestic issues* holistically, he suggests I support Israel's apartheid-like policies. You'll notice he did not respond to the idea that Clinton would be handling Korea better, and there'd be far less chance of a war there, which could kill hundreds of thousands or millions due to the proximity of Seoul to the NK border, because it would be pretty damn hard to defend Trump vs. Clinton there. Nor does he bother to explain why I shouldn't consider that to be a very consequential difference between Trump and Clinton, to the point where I should have a clear preference for Clinton on foreign policy, even though her positions on Israel were bad. Nor did he want to engage with climate change, which also affects orders of magnitude more people around the world than the possibility of Israel expanding settlements in the West Bank. The notion that one should consider Palestine to be supreme among global issues is pretty damn hard to justify, so instead he prefers to attack me for not sharing the opinion that Clinton has an insatiable thirst for Persian blood rather than engage that broader point.

*How evil of me, I know, to consider the fate of 300+ million Americans, including 3+ million Muslim-Americans, as balancing at all against 4+ million Palestinians. Clearly the former is insignificant by comparison.

Last edited by erimir; 12-08-2017 at 07:50 AM.
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  #37  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

On the topic of this particular fire, a related thrad. You, if inclined, might benefit from clicking in and scrolling up, and reading down.

Or you can just snortlol (nervously) at this one post from the middle.


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  #38  
Old 12-08-2017, 03:58 PM
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News Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

The axis of Arab autocrats who are standing behind Donald Trump
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Trump, however, does not act alone. Whatever domestic constituency he thinks he is appealing to, and the evangelical Christians appear high on the list, Trump could not and would not have made his announcement unless he had regional backers.

The support of Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud and religious nationalists from Jewish Home are a given, but they are wearily familiar. The exotic and temptingly alien support comes from a new generation of Gulf Arab superbrats – young, irreverent, dune-bashing, selfie-taking, in your face, and appearing in a coup near you.

Under Trump they have formed an axis of Arab autocrats, whose geopolitical ambition is as large as their wallets. They really do think they have the power to impose their will not just on the shards of a Palestinian state, but on the region as a whole.

Under construction, at least in their minds, is a network of modern police states, each wearing a lip gloss of Western liberalism. All see Likud as their natural partners, and Jared Kushner as their discreet interlocutor.
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This was why Mohammed bin Salman, crown prince and the kingdom’s de facto ruler, thought he could browbeat Mahmoud Abbas, the ailing Palestinian president, into acquiescence. He told Abbas either to accept the terms – no Jerusalem, no right of return – or make way for someone who will, according to multiple sources quoted by the New York Times.

Several of the officials said bin Salman had offered to sweeten the deal with direct payment to Abbas, which he refused.
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  #39  
Old 12-08-2017, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Saudi offers Abu Dis as future capital of Palestine – Middle East Monitor
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  #40  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Al-Azhar’s Grand Imam Ahmed al-Tayeb cancelled the meeting after President Donald Trump’s move to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, Al-Azhar said Friday.

In a statement, Al-Azhar, Egypt’s highest Sunni institution, said Tayeb had reversed his previous decision to meet Pence, who is due to travel to Egypt and Israel in the second half of December.

Tayeb announced “his categorical rejection of a formal request from US Vice President Mike Pence to meet with him on December 20,” Al-Azhar said.
Egyptian cleric follows Palestinians in cancelling meeting with Pence | The Times of Israel
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  #41  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Great, mickthinks gives his assholey opinion. Now at least I KNOW I am on the right track...

Trump was elected thanks to arrogant assholes like erimir and you, mick, bullying voters. Vote for her or be a sexist. Vote for her or get Trump. You can't fucking bully people into voting for a POS if the only reasons are negative.

So for the thousandth time, mick, go.fuck.yourself and stuff your cheap, poorly thought out, superficial-but-thinks-it's-profound opinions up your Trumphole.
So I like that you appeal to anti mick thinks is the reasonable position.


I think it’s a fun way to argue.


I don’t always agree with Mick, but if we are going to argue via the bird of a feather argument I rate the team that features Mick on one side with Hillary and Erimir much higher than the one with you, the GOP with extra Vulgarian, Russian hackers, assassination happy Putin.

This is of course a silly way to argue.
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  #42  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Curious to know how Watser? got placed on the "team" featuring "the GOP with extra Vulgarian, Russian hackers, assassination happy Putin." Was he drafted?

:confused:
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  #43  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

:lol: Russian hackers

Yeah, I believe in Russian hackers who stole your elections along with Santa. Gimme a break. And now I am in Trump's 'team'. I think we need to hand out some hyperbole awards here.

As for mickthinks, I am still waiting for a shred of evidence of that. Never had anything to say that was worth reading. So yeah as far as I am concerned a broken compass that always points south.
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  #44  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Curious to know how Watser? got placed on the "team" featuring "the GOP with extra Vulgarian, Russian hackers, assassination happy Putin." Was he drafted?

:confused:
He volunteered.


He picked Trump over Hillary because fuck the lesser of two evils and Trump once said something sort of nice about Palestine and so he’s better than Hillary in the Middle East because Hillary wants to murder all the Persians.

Mostly he’s on the Trump side because he pushes bullshit false equivalence.
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  #45  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Wow, you are even more part of the arrogant, dumbass, democratic, vindictive losers who will make very sure you will lose next time.
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  #46  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
:lol: Russian hackers


As for mickthinks, I am still waiting for a shred of evidence of that. Never had anything to say that was worth reading. So yeah as far as I am concerned a broken compass that always points south.


Your missing the point. It doesn’t really matter if you are on trumps side or not, because arguments from association like the one you made concerning Mick are fucking stupid.

I love that your response was to take exception to the association and not the logic.

:tmgrin:
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  #47  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

Yeah, you are dumber than a box of bricks, I forgot.
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  #48  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:42 PM
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beyelzu beyelzu is offline
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Yeah, you are dumber than a box of bricks, I forgot.
A literal ad hominem, folks, look at him go.(unless you aren’t trying to argue, but given the shit logic you use, I’m not giving benefit of the doubt here)


Yep, I’m just a poor dumbshit, backwoods countryass microbiologist who is high about 90 percent of the waking hours, but I know that the statement,”Mick disagrees, so I know I’m right” doesn’t actually make sense.

A statement is true of false regardless who believes it. I thought it was a stupid, petty thing to say, so I made a similar argument.

You should find my argument breathtakingly stupid as it was designed to mirror your own.

But I’m just an inbred dumbshit, what do I know?
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Last edited by beyelzu; 12-08-2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Accuracy
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  #49  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

And for the record: I'd rather be on Putin's side than on Killary's. At least he fights AGAINST al-Qaeda and ISIS instead of supporting them.

Not that I'd vote for either of them.
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Old 12-08-2017, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Trumphole starts another fucking fire

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Wow, you are even more part of the arrogant, dumbass, democratic, vindictive losers who will make very sure you will lose next time.
Nah, I’m part of the energized base that will sweep in Democrats hopefully in time to help the US.
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