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Old 07-27-2004, 07:36 PM
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Question Mark Anybody Watching the Convention?

I saw Jimmy Carter get introduced while channel surfing last night and was so traumatized by the Mormon Tabernacle/orchestral muzak version of Georgia on My Mind that I simply had to move right along. Don't they have any respect for Ray Charles?

Anyway, I've read a couple of articles about Gore's and Clinton's speeches and judging from the exerpts they looked quite good. Did anyone watch the action live?
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

I was working last night and CBS was on the tube. I was interrupted during Clinton's speech. Damned employer actually expects me to work sometimes. Anyway, I thought it was a great speech, very eloquent but drove many points home, digs without direct insults, and perfect timing, just a well-crafted oratory. I found myself wishing Clinton was still President. Damn term limits anyway. I'd bet he could've easily beat Smirkin' George in 2000. Damn Constitution anyway. Damn, that last one sounded like Dick Cheney.


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Old 07-27-2004, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by warrenly
I was working last night and CBS was on the tube. I was interrupted during Clinton's speech. Damned employer actually expects me to work sometimes. Anyway, I thought it was a great speech, very eloquent but drove many points home, digs without direct insults, and perfect timing, just a well-crafted oratory.
That's the feeling I got from reading the newstories and hearing a teeny bit on NPR this morning too.

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Damn Constitution anyway. Damn, that last one sounded like Dick Cheney.
And Ashcroft. And Thomas.
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

I guess I should go Cheney myself now.


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Old 07-27-2004, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

I thought both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton gave excellent speeches.

Jimmy Carter continues to impress me as both a statesman and a generally honorable man. While I am not a Christian he strikes me as a much better example to follow than our current Christian-in-Chief. He had many spot on comments about our current place in the world including:

Quote:
Today -- today our Democratic Party is led by another former naval officer, one who volunteered for military service. He showed up when assigned to duty -- and he served with honor and distinction. He also knows the horrors of war and the responsibilities of leadership. And I am confident that next January he would restore the judgment and maturity to our government that nowadays is sorely lacking.
Quote:
In repudiating extremism we need to recommit ourselves to a few common-sense principles that should transcend partisan differences. First, we cannot enhance our own security if we place in jeopardy what is most precious to us, namely, the centrality of human rights in our daily lives and in global affairs. Second, we cannot maintain our historic self-confidence as a people if we generate public panic. Third, we cannot do our duty as citizens and patriots if we pursue an agenda that polarizes and divides our country. Next, we cannot be true to ourselves if we mistreat others. And finally, in the world at large we cannot lead if our leaders mislead.
And what can you say about Bill Clinton that hasn't already been said? He certainly knows how to work a crowd! He was funny and self-deprecating - essentially calling George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and himself draft avoiders.

Some of my favorite quotes from his speech last night include:

Quote:
John Kerry knows who he is and where he’s going. He has the experience, the character, the ideas and the values to be a great President. In a time of change he has two other important qualities: his insatiable curiosity to understand the forces shaping our lives, and a willingness to hear the views even of those who disagree with him. Therefore his choices will be full of both conviction and common sense.
Quote:
Their opponents will tell you to be afraid of John Kerry and John Edwards, because they won’t stand up to the terrorists—don’t you believe it. Strength and wisdom are not conflicting values—they go hand in hand. John Kerry has both.
I thoroughly enjoyed the speeches I heard and look forward to more over the next few days.

- Donald
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Old 07-27-2004, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlanod
I thought both Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton gave excellent speeches.

Jimmy Carter continues to impress me as both a statesman and a generally honorable man. While I am not a Christian he strikes me as a much better example to follow than our current Christian-in-Chief.
I agree with you very much. The Carter Center is a gem of effective human rights activism. Jimmy Carter's personal committment to Habitat for Humanity is genuine involvement, not just spokespeopling. Plus, that sinned in his heart thing during the Playboy interview was just a great moment, imo.

Quote:
And what can you say about Bill Clinton that hasn't already been said? He certainly knows how to work a crowd! He was funny and self-deprecating - essentially calling George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and himself draft avoiders.
I heard that snippet on NPR and loved it. He really is an exceptional public speaker.

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I thoroughly enjoyed the speeches I heard and look forward to more over the next few days.
Thank you for excellent review. I hope you'll keep sharing your impressions.
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:32 AM
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Comedy I Said to Myself: "Self..."

I can't believe Chris Heinz actually just said that. Now he's being all dignified and noble about his mom, but for some reason he did air quotes around the NYT's description of her as "leading" philanthropist.
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:07 AM
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Default Re: I Said to Myself: "Self..."

Teresa Heinz Kerry just impressed the hell out of me. She has more knowledge of international history and languages in her little finger than the entire Bush cabinet put together. And her Italian is to die for. :)
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Old 07-28-2004, 10:03 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

I missed Carter's speech, but damn, I love that man. Sometimes, when I'm overwhelmed, I pretend he's still president, and tell everyone to wear a sweater in the house instead of turning up the heat because President Carter said to. I'll have to look up his speech, and pretend he's president now. Cause it's summer, and don't nobody want to wear sweaters.

Clinton rocked the house, he did. I have to say I hated his smooveness when he was in office, but now I'm all nostalgic for him. He did a beautiful job of putting Kerry in the spotlight and playing supporter. Lumping himself in with Bush and Cheney as avoiding service, going on at length about how he's getting big fat tax refunds now that he's in the top 1%. He did a beautiful job of working the crowd without stealing the thunder.

Teresa Heinz-Kerry's speech today didn't do much for me, but I have to say that she's one of the straws I grasp at in my attempts to like Kerry. I like him better as a person, anyway, because he married an interesting, intelligent woman, rather than some bland little bag of meat. And if she's some kind of Svengali, controlling him with her purse strings, well, I can deal with that.

Barack Obama did an excellent job, too, from what I saw. (We were switching between the convention and "Trading Spouses" on Fox, just to be like renaissance guys and shit.) The Dems are hitting hard on the politics of privilege angle, which I think is probably their best strategy to sway undecideds who maybe voted Shrub in 2000, and to encourage first-time voters. (Prediction: MASSIVE turnout from 18 to 25s. They could very well own this election.) Obama played it well, with just the right optimistic spin to energize the demographics who could swing the election.

Another nice move: Max Cleland's introducing Kerry Thursday (Thursday, right?) Cleland. That is so perfect.

I want this whole thing over. I'm tired. I want the Democrats back in office now so I can start hating them again.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: I Said to Myself: "Self..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus
Teresa Heinz Kerry just impressed the hell out of me. She has more knowledge of international history and languages in her little finger than the entire Bush cabinet put together. And her Italian is to die for. :)
I heard a sound bite from her this morning on the news. Saying something to the effect that people may call her opinionated, but she longs for the day when women will be called 'smart and well-informed', just like men, not 'opinionated'.

I liked that. Why isn't she running for President? ;)

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Old 07-28-2004, 04:13 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Gawd I miss having an articulate and intelligent person speaking to me from the TV about important things affecting us all. I missed Clinton, so had to read his speech...damn the man is a brilliant speaker.

I like Teresa Heinz Kerry very much. She is strong and smart and was out there protesting apartheid when she was younger (being the child of a couple of hippies has made me hold "crazy activist" as a positive trait ;)). I must say I miss having a strong woman in the White House too...Laura Bush is just a nonentity.

I thought Ron Reagan did a good job explaining the benefits of stem cell research as well as the mechanics of it, so many people believe the right wing propoganda about just where those stem cells come from.
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
Teresa Heinz-Kerry's speech today didn't do much for me, but I have to say that she's one of the straws I grasp at in my attempts to like Kerry. I like him better as a person, anyway, because he married an interesting, intelligent woman, rather than some bland little bag of meat. And if she's some kind of Svengali, controlling him with her purse strings, well, I can deal with that.
Did you hear her Portuguese? I was pretty impressed from the first minutes she started talking. When she got to the protesting apartheid in 1950's Johannesburg, I was thoroughly impressed. On the whole the speech was eh; she's smokin' though.

Quote:
Barack Obama did an excellent job, too, from what I saw. (We were switching between the convention and "Trading Spouses" on Fox, just to be like renaissance guys and shit.)
A few folks on IIDB thought he went a bit heavy on the we believe in god stuff, but from what I've read he was great. Did ya hear this tidbit (from Salon's ultra-money War Room):

Quote:
For all the hype and preparation that went into this four-day ballyhoo in Boston, Lou DiNatale, a Democratic political analyst holding court for the New England Cable News network, apparently didn't get the memo on Tuesday night's much-anticipated keynote speaker Barack Obama. Like just about everyone else in Dem country, DiNatale loved the stirring speech delivered by the charismatic young candidate for Senate from Illinois. DiNatale had been less than thrilled by Howard Dean's oratory minutes before, and proceeded to marvel at the disparity of the Dems' trotting out the lackluster Dean only to turn around and "crank out this guy Osama." Not since "maybe Cuomo in the '80s," DiNatale continued to gush in his thick Boston twang, had he seen a speaker so compelling as "this guy Osama."

The other three anchors stayed poker-faced, and a commercial break a moment later provided the mercy killing. After Ron Reagan next delivered his speech in support of stem cell research, the cameras dialed back into the NECN booth inside the FleetCenter and DiNatale got "Obama" right the third time, perhaps with a helpful off-camera nudge. It's a good thing he wasn't in the employ of USA Today.
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus
Did you hear her Portuguese? I was pretty impressed from the first minutes she started talking. When she got to the protesting apartheid in 1950's Johannesburg, I was thoroughly impressed. On the whole the speech was eh; she's smokin' though.
Exactly. I thought it sounded weak compared to her more extemporaneous speeches. I hesitate to make a broad judgment on her, based on the fact that I don't know much about her past (including her recent Republican past), but I do like her, at least viscerally.

And I got a got a little queasy when she was talking about being called opinionated, too. Dang it to heck, why is this still going on in 2004? Are we really that hopelessly misogynistic that we still haven't made it over that psychological hump in all these decades? I mean, she's right. In some ways, it's getting worse, even. I guess the misogynist demographic isn't all that swingable, though, so maybe she'll get the non-voting single women energized. Apparently, that's a big target.
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Old 07-28-2004, 10:39 PM
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Having been (so far) a lifelong Republican, I cannot bring myself to watch or hear a bunch of bleeding heart Democrats patting each other on their backs. Although I hate the right wing of the GOP with a passion, I don't think I could ever be a Democrat. I really don't like either party, but the GOP just seems to be the lesser of two evils. So many Democratic candidates just seem like such limousine liberal hypocrites.

Sorry, but that's my opinion. BTW, I would not put Jimmy Carter in that category. I believe he has always been a truly and genuinely caring and compassionate man. He was unfortunate enough to serve his term during double digit inflation and unemployment rates, and the Iran hostage crisis.

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Old 07-28-2004, 11:54 PM
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It seems to me that party politics require a high tolerance for hypocrisy. I'm not sure how you measure which party is more replete with self-satisfied hypocrites, though. I can name people that strike me as having integrity from both parties, but that's not any kind of analysis.

In the end, hypocrites, Galahads and everyone in between do what they do and that's what I've got to go on.
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Old 07-29-2004, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

The Dem Convention is my Superbowl. I cheer loudly and clap. :popcorn:

If I had one of those big '#1' foam hands I would wear it. :yup:
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Old 07-29-2004, 01:51 AM
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[QUOTE=livius drusus]Did you hear her Portuguese?[QUOTE]

I was greatly amused by her opening reference to "a família portuguesa e Brasileiras também" in recognition of the fact that Brazilians and Brazilian speakers consider themselves separate and distinct from the old world Portuguese. I thought it was a nice touch.

I am fascinated by her accent when she speaks English. It vaguely reminds me of Ingrid Bergman. A friend of mine says it reminds her of older European women she knows who learned English in boarding/finishing schools.

I think naturalized Americans often have a better concept of what America stands for, what it actually projects to the rest of the world and what our rights and responsibilities are as Americans.

Try this test to see what you have to know to become an American citizen. Maybe we should require all native born Americans to take the same test before they are admitted into adulthood.

- Donald
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Old 07-29-2004, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand
Having been (so far) a lifelong Republican, I cannot bring myself to watch or hear a bunch of bleeding heart Democrats patting each other on their backs.
I'm not real fond of the core of the party, the left wing extremists, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on the following:
Quote:
...the GOP just seems to be the lesser of two evils.
To me, this has gone way beyond the differences in social policy between the two major parties. I say social policies only, because in reality, their pro-business policies aren't all that much different from each other. But, the blind allegiance that I see given to the warmonger neocons and their puppet President that have dragged us into an unnecessary and probably unwinnable war, if not evil in and of itself, is at least supportive of evil and therefore evil by association. Blind obedience to anything like that is not something to be applauded. War is serious business, people's lives are at stake and nobody should ever wage war unless there is no other option.

Quote:
So many Democratic candidates just seem like such limousine liberal hypocrites.
I've never been unemployed, but I can have sympathy for those that have lost their jobs. In fact, I know far too many that have gone for a couple years without finding gainful employment. Just because one has money doesn't mean that on must be a hypocrite when they advocate policies that help those that do not. There are enough hypocrites to go around, believe me. And, there are a lot more limousines toting conservatives around.

Quote:
Sorry, but that's my opinion.
And you are entitled to it and that's one thing that makes a free society great, the freedom to dissent. Agree?


Warren

P.S. If you couldn't tell, I'm voting for Not-Bush/Edwards in 2004.
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Old 07-29-2004, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand
Having been (so far) a lifelong Republican, I cannot bring myself to watch or hear a bunch of bleeding heart Democrats patting each other on their backs. Although I hate the right wing of the GOP with a passion, I don't think I could ever be a Democrat. I really don't like either party, but the GOP just seems to be the lesser of two evils. So many Democratic candidates just seem like such limousine liberal hypocrites.
OK. I've been wondering this for a while, so now you're on the spot:

What is the objection to 'limousine liberals'? I've never understood this. It seems to me that, in order to go into politics at all, you have to be relatively successful at something already, just to be able to raise the cash to run a campaign. As such, it makes sense that most politicians would be from a higher socioeconomic status, and might even ride around in limousines.

I'm not messing with you, or trying to trick you into some position or anything. I'm genuinely curious, because I don't understand where the hypocrisy is coming from. To me, it's hypocritical to couch arguments for self-serving policy in terms of theory, as I see the Republicans doing. Wealthy Democrats arguing for fewer tax breaks for themselves doesn't seem hypocritical to me.

Now, I'm no Democrat, either, and I'm not much of a fan of the party historically. I'm undeclared (and am leaning toward going last-minute Republican for the primaries, which is a long story). For the regular elections, though, I'm going yellow dog Democrat. I decided this before the field of contenders had even narrowed. Lieberman, Kerry, Sharpton, a ficus. I don't want to say I don't care, because I do, very much. But at this point, the evil of the Democrats is so much lesser than the one that's in power that I don't really think I have a reasonable choice.

Bush has just done so much damage already. On the campaign trail, he promised to surround himself with experts, so that his lack of experience wouldn't matter so much. So we went to war based on bad intelligence, and it's not Bush's fault because he relied on experts. In the shadow of 9/11, they passed the Patriot Act, designed to give law enforcement the tools to track down terrorists. It wasn't long before administration officials took the show on the road showing local law enforcement agencies how to exploit these holes in citizens' constitutional rights to investigate and prosecute run-of-the-mill crimes in their communities. That's not Bush's fault, though. That's Ashcroft's baby. They tried to send phone company and delivery service employees into our homes to report back to them on suspicious activities. People noticed that, though, so Poindexter got canned. Not Bush's fault.

And all the time, Bush and his administration have been playing these Reaganesque tricks with unfunded mandates that do more harm than good, and obscure little rule changes that subvert the lawmaking process by simply removing funds and personnel required to enforce laws and regulations.

I'm terrified at the prospect of another Bush term. I don't want any more kids going to fight unwinnable wars that just breed our next generation of enemies, I don't want our country's economy decimated by trade agreements that only serve to line the pockets of those whose pockets have plenty of lining already.

As I said, I'm none too fond of the Democrats, either, but I can't wait for the day when I can direct my discontent with them toward the white house again.
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Old 07-29-2004, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisarea
OK. I've been wondering this for a while, so now you're on the spot:

What is the objection to 'limousine liberals'? I've never understood this. It seems to me that, in order to go into politics at all, you have to be relatively successful at something already, just to be able to raise the cash to run a campaign. As such, it makes sense that most politicians would be from a higher socioeconomic status, and might even ride around in limousines.
I'm not talking about the candidates themselves as much as the rich Democrats who support them. I know plenty myself, and it seems to me many of them are Democrats because of white and rich guilt over their privileged status. I find their support to be rather hollow and unprincipled.

Quote:
I'm not messing with you, or trying to trick you into some position or anything. I'm genuinely curious, because I don't understand where the hypocrisy is coming from. To me, it's hypocritical to couch arguments for self-serving policy in terms of theory, as I see the Republicans doing. Wealthy Democrats arguing for fewer tax breaks for themselves doesn't seem hypocritical to me.
As The Wall Street Journal is fond of demonstrating with government statistics, tax revenues adjusted for inflation remain relatively stable over time, regardless of whether the government increases or decreases marginal tax rates, so the tax-the-rich policies of Democrats is nothing more than poor economic theory and class warfare rhetoric. It's unseemly too.

Quote:
Bush has just done so much damage already. On the campaign trail, he promised to surround himself with experts, so that his lack of experience wouldn't matter so much. So we went to war based on bad intelligence, and it's not Bush's fault because he relied on experts. In the shadow of 9/11, they passed the Patriot Act, designed to give law enforcement the tools to track down terrorists. It wasn't long before administration officials took the show on the road showing local law enforcement agencies how to exploit these holes in citizens' constitutional rights to investigate and prosecute run-of-the-mill crimes in their communities. That's not Bush's fault, though. That's Ashcroft's baby. They tried to send phone company and delivery service employees into our homes to report back to them on suspicious activities. People noticed that, though, so Poindexter got canned. Not Bush's fault.
I agree whole-heartedly with the horribly misguided attacks on civil liberties this administration has made. It is pandering to fear induced by 9/11 and part of the misguided "War of Terror." I also loathe the notion of "faith based initiatives," whatever that means.

Quote:
And all the time, Bush and his administration have been playing these Reaganesque tricks with unfunded mandates that do more harm than good, and obscure little rule changes that subvert the lawmaking process by simply removing funds and personnel required to enforce laws and regulations.
I agree. Most of those unfunded mandates were instituted by the Clinton Administration, however.

Quote:
I'm terrified at the prospect of another Bush term. I don't want any more kids going to fight unwinnable wars that just breed our next generation of enemies, I don't want our country's economy decimated by trade agreements that only serve to line the pockets of those whose pockets have plenty of lining already.
It doesn't take a Republican President to get us into unwinnable wars. It was Kennedy who led us into Vietnam, and Clinton who led us into the Somalia fiasco and into Haiti, and who ordered the attacks on Iraq with 430 cruise missiles and more than 500 sorties by American and British warplanes, and then surgical air strikes against terrorist camps in Afghanistan. One could certainly argue that the latter attacks were eerily predicted by the movie "Wag the Dog" as a diversion from the media scrutiny of Clinton's involvement in the Monica Lewinsky PR scandal. Finally, it was Clinton who ordered the futile four-month bombing campaign in Kosovo. It's simply disengenuous to assert that Democrats cannot be war mongers as well as Republicans. They, too, have plenty of defense contractor contributors and friends whose pockets get lined.

Quote:
As I said, I'm none too fond of the Democrats, either, but I can't wait for the day when I can direct my discontent with them toward the white house again.
You'll get your chance soon enough, if not after the 2004 elections, then perhaps after the 2008 elections. I hope with all my will that we do not get another Clinton in the White House. I believe Bill is the lesser of that evil and remarkable couple filled with the worst kind of hubris.

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Last edited by Cool Hand; 07-29-2004 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 07-30-2004, 02:21 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool Hand
I'm not talking about the candidates themselves as much as the rich Democrats who support them. I know plenty myself, and it seems to me many of them are Democrats because of white and rich guilt over their privileged status. I find their support to be rather hollow and unprincipled.
I'll take rich Democrats who are "hollow and unprincipled" because they feel guilt over accumulating wealth over principled, and in my opinion, mean Republicans that accumulate wealth by stepping on whoever they have to and off other people's sweat and yet do not feel guilty about it.

Quote:
As The Wall Street Journal is fond of demonstrating with government statistics, tax revenues adjusted for inflation remain relatively stable over time, regardless of whether the government increases or decreases marginal tax rates, so the tax-the-rich policies of Democrats is nothing more than poor economic theory and class warfare rhetoric. It's unseemly too.
Unseemly? No. Humane? Yes.

Quote:
It doesn't take a Republican President to get us into unwinnable wars. It was Kennedy who led us into Vietnam, and Clinton who led us into the Somalia fiasco and into Haiti, and who ordered the attacks on Iraq with 430 cruise missiles and more than 500 sorties by American and British warplanes, and then surgical air strikes against terrorist camps in Afghanistan.
True enough.
Quote:
One could certainly argue that the latter attacks were eerily predicted by the movie "Wag the Dog" as a diversion from the media scrutiny of Clinton's involvement in the Monica Lewinsky PR scandal.
You could, but you'd be going against the findings of the 9/11 Commission.
Quote:
Finally, it was Clinton who ordered the futile four-month bombing campaign in Kosovo.
Futile?
Quote:
It's simply disengenuous to assert that Democrats cannot be war mongers as well as Republicans.
As one who never supported this war against Iraq, I'm going to have to say that I don't like the pro-war vote by the Democrat contenders prior to the war and even now as they rattle the sabres try to make themselves appear strong on defense. But, I'm still voting against Bush and for the most likely to beat him.
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They, too, have plenty of defense contractor contributors and friends whose pockets get lined.
True. There isn't really a two-party system at all, only one party, the capitalist party with it's social-liberal wing and social-conservative wing. And once again, my choices suck.


Warren, still voting for Not-Bush/Edwards in 2004...
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  #22  
Old 07-30-2004, 03:36 AM
Sonnet Sonnet is offline
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Alexandria Kerry just gave a fucking GREAT speech. :popcorn:
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  #23  
Old 07-30-2004, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

Well I just finished watching the prime time portions of the convention every night.

Overall I thought this convention was done very, very well.

The problem I have with it is that I voted for Shrub in 2000 because of what he said prior to being elected.

I feel so screwed. I have forever lost my ability to vote on the basis of what anyone says, I have to know what they have done.

I want Bush gone as much as most here do, but here is my problem with Kerry:

Nothing was said during this convention about the 30 years he spent in the Senate.

We now all know that Kerry says he has a close knit family and if true, that's great. So do I. Should I be president? We now all know that Kerry was a volunteer during wartime. So was I. Should I now be president? We all now know that Kerry has an outspoken wife who says what she thinks. So do I. Should I now be president?

What we didn't hear is how Kerry's record during his 30 years as a senator speaks well of his being president. Kerry was born, served in the military during wartime, became a prosecutor (read yet another lawyer turned politician), was elected to the senate and is now running for president.

But what about those missing 30 years? I don't care about Edwards, his wife or Kerry's wife because they mean absolutely nothing to the presidency.

What will John Kerry actually do? I don't care what he says because nobody who has been following politics for more than 1 election really believes that what candidates say they will do is actually what they will do. Kerry has a 30 year political track record and the fact that it was barely mentioned throughout this convention scares the crap out of me. Perhaps not as much as 4 more years of Bush, but it still scares the crap out of me because he is the only realistic alternative to Bush and he evidently doesn't think enough of his 30 years of public service to capitalize upon it or even mention it except in passing.

Forget god bless america, god help america.
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  #24  
Old 07-30-2004, 07:32 AM
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LadyShea LadyShea is offline
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

You vote based on what campaigning candidates say? I knew the minute Bush was elected he would find an excuse to invade Iraq....he is the other Bush's son. I knew he was a moron who can't form coherent sentences. Didn't you?

What issues are important to you? I am sure commentary of Kerry's voting record is available all over the Internet, you just need to narrow your focus...hell I'll look it up for ya even :)

Two things I like about him are that he is pro choice and pro civil liberties

From this post at II to guide further research

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He has a 96 percent overall rating from Human Rights Campaign (a gay rights group) with a perfect score for the last four congresses.

He has a 100% rating from the NAACP for voting on civil rights issues for the 107th Congress.

He has a 100% rating from the National Education Association for the past eight years.

He has a 100% rating from NARAL and Planned Parenthood.

He has a 91% lifetime rating from the AFL-CIO and has been endorsed by the United Auto Workers union.

Kerry has been endorsed by national police and firefighter unions. He has been endorsed by Dennis Kucinich, Howard Dean and Wesley Clark. He has been endorsed by a group of 26 former diplomats, ambassadors and military officials who served under the Reagan and Bush Sr. administrations. He has been endorsed by a group of 48 Nobel Prize-winning scientists.

Although he is a Catholic, he has spoken out in favor of separation of church and state and has scorned the Vatican's claims that Catholic politicians have a moral duty to vote its position on all issues.
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  #25  
Old 07-30-2004, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Anybody Watching the Convention?

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Originally Posted by LadyShea
You vote based on what campaigning candidates say? I knew the minute Bush was elected he would find an excuse to invade Iraq....he is the other Bush's son. I knew he was a moron who can't form coherent sentences. Didn't you?
Color me ignorant and naive, but I believed what he said. I guess I was raised to believe that decent people mean what they say and say what they mean. The rest are used car salesmen and shouldn't be appointed to any position higher than used car saleman. Unfortunately they often end up the US president.

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What issues are important to you? I am sure commentary of Kerry's voting record is available all over the Internet, you just need to narrow your focus...hell I'll look it up for ya even :)
You don't have to look it up for me because it isn't me you have to persuade. It is the ignorant, but majority voter you have to persuade. Kerry didn't mention his senate record nor did anyone else. That speaks volumes in my opinion. Bush didn't mention much of his record as governor of texas either. HE told us what he was about and that was a lie. Kerry isn't telling us what he has done as a senator, rather he is telling us what he is about and that is a _ _ _ (fill in the blank).

Quote:
Two things I like about him are that he is pro choice and pro civil liberties
Pro choice? Who cares? Abortion is legal and that isn't likely to change. The partial birth abortion ban failed to pass constitutional muster. That was the last hurrah of the religious nuts. Abortion isn't going to become illegal in the US regardless of who is president, the populous simply won't tolerate an anti abortion police state anymore than it will tolerate a reincarnation of slavery. It is an old issue, not a modern one. I don't blame you for remaining vigilent, but the war is over and has been won.

Where I STRONGLY disagree with you is on the issue of civil liberties. What you are buying into is what Kerry is saying, not what his 30 year record says. Kerry is possibly more against civil liberties than Bush and Ashcroft. Does my saying that shock you?

Let me say it again, Kerry never met a civil liberty he didn't fight against.

Is that even more shocking?

Kerry simply sucks ass on civil liberties.

Let me prove it to you.

Kerry tonite said he would appoint an attorney general who would respect the constitution. This is an obvious jab at Ashcroft who trashes the constitution. Problem is Ashcroft as a senator has a better civil rights record than Kerry. Hard to believe? Read on.

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Like most irresponsible, ought to be fired politicians, he didn't read it before voting. The difference between most congress people and Kerry is that Kerry is the ***author*** of some of the patriot act.

You might recall that during the Clinton administration software like PGP and other encryption software were hated by government. Government wanted backdoors to this software so privacy of communications could easily be broken by government. Senator Ashcroft and the ACLU opposed this, senator Kerry was in favor of this. Here is a quote from Kerry: "One would be hard-pressed, to find a single grieving relative of those killed in the bombings of the World Trade Center in New York or the federal building in Oklahoma City who would not have gladly sacrificed a measure of personal privacy if it could have saved a loved one."

Here Kerry predates the Bush administration in terms of sacrificing liberty for the perception of security.

Today we have more than encryption, we have voice over IP technology, a new form of communication. The FBI wants to have a backdoor into this communication just as they wanted a back door into encryption technology. Kerry voted to give the FBI a backdoor into encryption, why wouldn't he support unconstitutional, anti civil liberty snooping upon this form of communication? For the record, Ashcroft opposed the backdoor into encryption.

Further, as it concerns the war on (some) drugs Kerry was a leading supporter of asset forfeiture. Just in case you are not familiar with asset forfeiture, it started out saying that if a person held a home as a drug producing cover the home could be confiscated by law enforcement when making a bust. In the 80s the laws were changed. They were changed in a decidely anti civil liberty direction. They were changed such that a person known to be 100% innocent could lose their property if drugs were produced or sold on the property they owned. This has resulted in moms and dads losing their homes because junior had pot in his dresser drawer. This has resulted in property owners losing their property because someone grew pot on their acreage without their knowledge.

This injustice came to a boiling point in the 90s with liberals such as Barney Frank and John Conyers opposing the laws as well as republicans like Bob Barr and Henry Hyde. They argued that this was overkill. (actually it lead to the government murder of a man who owned property the government wanted, ask me if you want links to proof) You might recall that Bob Barr was radically pro drug war. The bastard even called Cheryl Miller, a dying MS victim and personal friend,(I formerly was on the NORML steering commitee) a pawn of the pro drug movement. All this suffering woman needed to ease her pain and suffering was pot and Barr was so against it that he desecrated this woman's honor and dignity. Despite being an archaic relic of a bastard Barr was preferable to Kerry who said: "We absolutely must push for asset forfeiture laws all over the planet".

I am not making this up. Read "The New War" by John Kerry himself. My quotes are of Kerry in his own book which you have heard nothing of during this campaign. He said these things in his book which you have heard absolutely nothing about, right? Just as you have heard nothing about his abominal 30 year record as a disgraceful senator you aren't hearing about his book either. That's what scares me about this trojan horse riding the anyone but Bush wave.

His past words and actions are of no consequence in this election.

They ought to be. Kerry is the poster child for why folks ought to be voting for anyone but the major party candidates.

Kerry is a drug warrior par excellence. He strongly advocated requiring financial institutions to report routine transactions of their customers to the feds. The ACLU again opposed. To anyone who values civil liberties the sheer number of times the ACLU has opposed Kerry should be a cause for concern. This isn't being reported.

Kerry is hugely in favor of money laundering provisions which the ACLU opposes. Recall the Las Vegas strip club that was investigated under the patriot act? The portion that authorized such an intrusive investigation was ***authored*** by John Kerry. I repeat for emphasis, the portion of the Patriot Act that authorizes such bullshit searches was mutherfucking AUTHORED by john motherfucking KERRY.

Bottom line is that comparing senatorial records John Ashcroft is a better advocate of civil liberties than John Kerry and that scares the living shit out of me.

Again, I repeat for emphasis: John Ashcroft, as a senator, did more for civil liberties than John Kerry. Would you vote for Ashcroft for President? If you answer no, but will vote for Kerry for president then respectfully you are a mislead individual.

I repeat for emphasis, John Ashcroft has done more for civil liberties than John Kerry. That ought to scare the shit out of anyone.

Kerry may be pro choice, but he is absolutely not, in any way shape or form pro civil liberties. Just ask the ACLU.

Those of you who are intending to vote for Kerry are going to end up just as ashamed of your naivette as I was in voting for Bush. I made the mistake of believing what he said without examining his actual record.

I hope that you don't make the same mistake.

John Kerry has a 30 year record that is publically viewable. Notice how completely it contrasts with his present statements, just as GWB's statements during the 2000 primaries contrasted with his record as governor and his darth vader daddy's record.

These people are manipulative fucks.

May the best manipulator of ignorant fucking sheepoles win.

Seriously you folks who intend to vote for Kerry need to wake the fuck up. He is not a better choice than Bush in terms of civil liberties. In some respects he is an even worse choice than Ashcroft, the man who lost to a dead man.

Quit with your blind sheep, anybody but Bush mantra, the guy is just as bad, if not worse than Bush in many areas.

Yeah, I know, you don't believe me.

So, go ahead and vote for Kerry. I hope the manipulative, self promoting bastard wins. Then democrat leaing voters can understand what many republican leaning voters now understand. The 2 major parties don't give a shit about us and they employ highly paid, morally vacant people to inform them of what they have to say to win elections which are controlled by sheepole.

[Editted my post to remove highly abrasive insults to Kerry supporters that were unwarranted]
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Last edited by dave_a; 07-30-2004 at 04:30 PM.
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