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Old 08-23-2016, 01:37 PM
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Default Just Faking It? . . .

Does anyone believe we have free will? According to Sam Harris, who is an avowed Atheist, we don't. Of course that implies everyone is just 'faking it.' Now how weird is that? :D So, why aren't we just automatons then, like the rest of the Universe that is not conscious and self-aware? Indeed, why is it even necessary? On the other hand, perhaps consciousness exists solely for expressing free will? Now that's a thought! Yet it also gives us a chance to interpret and understand things--even create them! But hey, that almost sounds like the role of the Creator! Well, imagine that! :D . . .

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Old 08-23-2016, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

John Horgan demolishes Sam Harris's silly nonsense babble.
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  #3  
Old 08-24-2016, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Does anyone believe we have free will?
Yes. As a considerable majority of philosophers do, under them the great philosopher and Atheist Daniel Dennett, who, with a huge background knowledge about (neo-)Darwinist evolution and cognitive science, and, just as Harris, one of the Four Horsemen, is a fervent defender of compatibilist free will.

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According to Sam Harris, who is an avowed Atheist, we don't.
Harris is not taken seriously in the philosophical discourse, because he just writes pamphlets for the general public, exposing his position, but not seriously discusses the arguments of his opponents.

I would suggest you read some serious literature about free will.

PS See also the thread here.

Last edited by GdB; 08-24-2016 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Added PS
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  #4  
Old 08-24-2016, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

You'd be surprised how many folks take Sam Harris seriously, however. But no, I don't. Of course if everything were deemed automatic, according to determinism, it doesn't explain why free will is even there. Not unless you deemed consciousness to exist in a higher state or, dimension than time and space, in my opinion. Whereby it's now capable of looking at physical reality as if it were standing outside of or, looking at it objectively. Albeit it would still exist subjectively to its internal workings, and biases. It also has some degree of mastery over physical reality now, by which free will--or, compatibilism--becomes conceivable.
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Old 08-24-2016, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by GdB View Post
Yes. As a considerable majority of philosophers do, under them the great philosopher and Atheist Daniel Dennett, who, with a huge background knowledge about (neo-)Darwinist evolution and cognitive science, and, just as Harris, one of the Four Horsemen, is a fervent defender of compatibilist free will.
Dennett is a proponent of compatibilism? Not according to this review I believe. Of course the book came out in 1991 so, who's to say? . . .

Searle said further: "To put it as clearly as I can: in his book, Consciousness Explained, Dennett denies the existence of consciousness. He continues to use the word, but he means something different by it. For him, it refers only to third-person phenomena, not to the first-person conscious feelings and experiences we all have. For Dennett there is no difference between us humans and complex zombies who lack any inner feelings, because we are all just complex zombies. ...I regard his view as self-refuting because it denies the existence of the data which a theory of consciousness is supposed to explain...Here is the paradox of this exchange: I am a conscious reviewer consciously answering the objections of an author who gives every indication of being consciously and puzzlingly angry. I do this for a readership that I assume is conscious. How then can I take seriously his claim that consciousness does not really exist?"

Consciousness Explained - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

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Old 08-25-2016, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
You'd be surprised how many folks take Sam Harris seriously, however.
Yes, he is a very visible person, and a great talker. But that does not mean he is right, of course. A text of him would be a great proof in a first year's philosophy exam after the course 'introduction to free will':

"Describe Harris' position on free will. Show his hidden assumptions. Explain why these make his argument invalid"

Or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
But no, I don't.
Good to know.

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Of course if everything were deemed automatic, according to determinism, it doesn't explain why free will is even there. Not unless you deemed consciousness to exist in a higher state or, dimension than time and space, in my opinion. Whereby it's now capable of looking at physical reality as if it were standing outside of or, looking at it objectively. Albeit it would still exist subjectively to its internal workings, and biases. It also has some degree of mastery over physical reality now, by which free will--or, compatibilism--becomes conceivable.
No idea what you are saying here. Is a determined system an automaton, per definition?

Last edited by GdB; 08-25-2016 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Typo
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  #7  
Old 08-25-2016, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Dennett is a proponent of compatibilism?
Yes. Definitely.
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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Not according to this review I believe.
Searle is simply wrong, and from this citation I can only conclude that he does not understand Dennett's position. Dennett has written extensively about the nonsense of the 'one-cannot-make-a-difference-between-a-conscious-human-and-a-philosophical-zombie' argument.

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Of course the book came out in 1991 so, who's to say? . . .
Dennett wrote two books about free will: Elbow Room, published in 1984, and Freedom Evolves, published in 2003. In both he defends a compatibilist theory of free will. I suggest you to read those books.

Also he has been fervently attacking Harris from a compatibilist view point.
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  #8  
Old 08-25-2016, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

Well, as 'Fate' would have it, how does that include free will? . . . in an otherwise 100% deterministic system that is?
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Well, as 'Fate' would have it, how does that include free will? . . . in an otherwise 100% deterministic system that is?
Fatalism is not the same thing as determinism. I assume by "fate" here you mean fatalism.
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  #10  
Old 08-26-2016, 10:18 AM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
Well, as 'Fate' would have it, how does that include free will? . . . in an otherwise 100% deterministic system that is?
'Fate' means that whatever you do, you cannot avoid the result. That is provable false, also in a determinist universe. It is like saying "all stones fall, even if there was no gravity field". (i.e. falling is unavoidable).
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  #11  
Old 08-26-2016, 12:03 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Fatalism is not the same thing as determinism. I assume by "fate" here you mean fatalism.
Well, at least the spelling is different. ;) Other than that, however, it looks you wind up with the same thing, one 'predictable' outcome, i.e., so long as all the (input) variables are understood.
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Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:

Last edited by Iacchus; 08-26-2016 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 08-26-2016, 12:43 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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No idea what you are saying here. Is a determined system an automaton, per definition?
Outside of human consciousness, I would venture to say the entire Universe behaves as an automaton. Why? Because it doesn't know Jack! But, I can assure you, Jack knows who he is! :yup:



Or, maybe Jack is a ghost and was never really here or, only 'imagined' he was here, like all the rest of his friends at the Universal Overlook, Hotel I mean. Aha! :D
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Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:
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  #13  
Old 08-27-2016, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

This should prove interesting. A philosophical discussion between GdB, who is knowledgeable about philosophy but whose native language is something other than English and Iacchus, who knows nothing about philosophy and whose native language is Weird.
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Last edited by Angakuk; 08-27-2016 at 03:47 PM.
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  #14  
Old 08-27-2016, 07:03 AM
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Science Re: Just Faking It? . . .

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Originally Posted by Angakuk View Post
This should prove interesting. A philosophical discussion between GdB, who is knowledgable about philosophy but whose native language is something other than English and Iacchus, who knows nothing about philosophy and whose native language is Weird.
Thanks for the support. I already hesitated to stop discussing with Iacchus, because it seems he does not belong to those kind of people that want to express their thoughts as clear as possible. Making fun seems more important to him.
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Old 08-27-2016, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Just Faking It? . . .

I don't think that Iacchus is making fun. I believe that he is quite serious and sincere. He just happens to be more than a little incoherent in his thinking and writing.
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