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  #151  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Ingesting sodium (Na) on its own would be a bad idea. Sprinkling NaCl (i.e. table salt) on your food is just fine.
Quote:
Net movement of water across cell membranes always occurs by osmosis, and the fundamental concept needed to understand absorption in the small gut is that there is a tight coupling between water and solute absorption. Another way of saying this is that absorption of water is absolutely dependent on absorption of solutes, particularly sodium:

* Sodium is absorbed into the cell by several mechanisms, but chief among them is by cotransport with glucose and amino acids - this means that efficient sodium absorption is dependent on absorption of these organic solutes.
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks...orb_water.html
Sodium appears as either a compound, or when dissolved, as free ions. So you are always consuming sodium. In fact, it is so essential that when you taste "salt" you are actually tasting sodium ions. It can be sodium bicarbonate, or sodium ascorbate, or sodium citrate, before it hits the water, but it is the sodium ions that we taste.

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So just pointing out that there's mercury in a compound doesn't mean that you can say that it's necessarily all that similar to putting mercury by itself into your body.
Once more, your analogy using salt, is worthless, and wrong. Sodium, by itself, is absorbed directly into the body. It is a fundamental element for life. Sodium is not poisonous (unless you use way too much, which we have shown is true for almost anything).

The same is true for chlorine. Remember, chlorine occurs in nature as either a compound, or when dissolved in water, as free ions, called chloride.
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Chloride is a chemical your body needs for metabolism (the process of turning the food you eat into energy). It also helps keep your body's acid-base balance. The amount of chloride in your blood is carefully controlled by your kidneys.
http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/aha_schlorid_crs.htm
If you want to defend mercury, you would be better off comparing it to iron, an essential element for life, but free iron is incredibly destructive in living organisms. (See Fenton reaction).

That fails as well, but it isn't as much fail as the sodium or chlorine fail. Please don't ever use that again.
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  #152  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Okay, so in sufficient quantities, some things are toxic that you said weren't toxic. What exactly is your argument, then?
I don't argue with stupid. This is not an argument.

That must seem insulting, I know how much the stupid love to argue. And when they fail, they resort to stupid adhoms, insults and clever little insider jokes.

You can't blame them, it's all they have. Nobody likes to realize they were being stupid. I know of several people that are still arguing online, right now. They have been arguing for over 12 years now.

About the same things. Nobody does that unless they enjoy it. OK maybe if they are insane, which is likely, but insane is such a harsh word. I call them stupid, it is more polite.

I really don't mind watching a parade of clowns in a topic, for a while. But if they do the same clown act for years, well, that is just lazy.

Or stupid.
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  #153  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I believe that there other sources of heavy metals in our post-industrial environment. I believe that internal combustion engines spew trace amounts of various heavy metals into the air. IIRC, those amounts have been reduced, particularly following the reduction of fuel additives.

I do know that we are advised not to utilize the fallen leaves in our street gutters for home composting, because of the street depositions end up in them, and those street depositions have heavy metals in them....

Not that there are any shortages of other sources....I believe the local utility has been forced to renovate their coal-fired electric generation plant (yes, we have them) in eastern Oregon that has been releasing unacceptable levels of mercury into the air....

I suspect that the amount of other sources for various types of mercury, and other heavy metals, in our environment (lead paint, anyone?), it's not surprising that we have high levels of various impediments of brain and nerve functions.

Is it?
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  #154  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Okay, so in sufficient quantities, some things are toxic that you said weren't toxic. What exactly is your argument, then?
I don't argue with stupid. This is not an argument.

That must seem insulting
No, seems pretty fucking dumb and arrogant.

I don't really have an opinion on this subject , but I know LadyShea and one thing she most definitely is not, is stupid. I also know arrogant assholes when I see them and you make even DrX seem humble.
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  #155  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Originally Posted by LadyShea View Post
Okay, so in sufficient quantities, some things are toxic that you said weren't toxic. What exactly is your argument, then?
This is not an argument.
Correct, inasmuch as pointing out that you've said both P and not P isn't an argument in itself. It's just a true statement. To make it an explicit argument, one would have to add further explicit premises, like, say, the law of non-contradiction. It would then follow that you've uttered a falsehood.

It's barely conceivable, I suppose, that LS was counting on you to fill on those mysterious implicit steps all by yourself. But if you prefer to continue shouting "STOOPID" while your self-contradictions and non-sequiturs are clearly identified and diagnosed, well, I guess it's up to you to decide where your own personal level for tolerable self-embarrassment sits.
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  #156  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Originally Posted by godfry n. glad View Post
I suspect that the amount of other sources for various types of mercury, and other heavy metals, in our environment (lead paint, anyone?), it's not surprising that we have high levels of various impediments of brain and nerve functions.

Is it?
No, in fact the main author of the paper in the OP is suggesting that research should be done on possible environmental poisons as a cause of autism. Rather than genetics. This based on science that has shown pollution, especially from mercury, is directly connected to rates of developmental problems and learning disorders.

Just like lead was found to be.
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  #157  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I read the wiki entry on 'mercury poisoning'. I thought it helpful.
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  #158  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Chlorine can kill you,
No, it can't. Well, I guess if a container of it fell on you it might. Your stupid claim is still stupid.

Even after I pointed it out to you, you continue to be stupid. Chlorine is an essential element for life, not having chlorine can kill you. Chlorine is not a toxic element.
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Sodium, by itself, is absorbed directly into the body. It is a fundamental element for life. Sodium is not poisonous (unless you use way too much, which we have shown is true for almost anything).

The same is true for chlorine.
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Okay, so in sufficient quantities, some things are toxic that you said weren't toxic. What exactly is your argument, then?
I don't argue with stupid. This is not an argument.
Now that's entertainment.
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  #159  
Old 11-01-2009, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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but I know LadyShea and one thing she most definitely is not, is stupid. I also know arrogant assholes when I see them and you make even DrX seem humble.
You think I said she is stupid? That is funny.
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  #160  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Battling stupid

Sorry Seebs, I really am, but I got my gun, and there are fish in the barrel.

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And chlorine isn't deadly too?

Chlorine is a poison. It's what makes bleach kill stuff. It's what makes some of the early biological warfare gasses kill people. It's deadly, fatal, and extremely toxic.
That is wrong. Elemental chlorine (dichloride), a chemical we manufacture is what you are thinking of. It doesn't exist in nature, and even the deadly stuff we make breaks down quickly, because it reacts with almost everything. Yes of course chlorine gas is very dangerous, but it isn't the same as the chloride ions in dissolved salt.

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And chlorine isn't deadly too?And every atom of table salt has a chlorine atom in it. That one chlorine atom is all it takes, like evry other chlorine compound that is deadly. Chlorine is a poison, it is deadly...
I hope you read the scientific explanation of why that is a fallacy.

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In short, you haven't made an argument which is valid, because we've observed that your argument, applied to other substances, produces ludicrous results. So the argument's bad.
No, you made a bad argument. And nobody called you on it. OK I did, but I don't count.

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It's pretty obvious that injecting any amount of chlorine into people would be bad, right? And yet, when I was last in the hospital, you know what one of the first things they did was? Set up an IV drip of some chlorine.
No, they did not. They gave you sodium and chloride ions in water. It was not chlorine like we use to disinfect water or kill people with.

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Oh, but that's okay, they mixed it with a metal which reacts explosively to water, and put that in my blood too.
No, the sodium ions in the water are not a reactive metal like you are thinking of. Sodium in metallic form, which we can make, is a reactive dangerous metal. But it to quickly reacts and turns into regular sodium, which always appears as a compound in nature.

Or harmless ions in solution.

Harmless in normal amounts of course. We all know by now that too much of anything can be bad.
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  #161  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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My mistake, I was thinking of Barium, not Beryllium. Of course, that too is a toxic metal.
I never did tell you how impressed I was with your quick retraction and obvious intelligence in recognizing an error. The opposite of stupid.

Yes barium is toxic, and pure barium is reactive, so we don't find any pure barium on earth. It is dangerous in a soluble form, but barium sulfate, the kind we are forced to drink for an x-ray, is insoluble, so it doesn't make us deadly ill.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Apparently, whenever he is shown to contradict himself, he screams that it is "stupid" so he does not have to deal with it.

Awesome.

Waste of time.

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  #163  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Seriously F-X, I have no idea what your point is anymore. Can you restate for the peanut gallery?
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  #164  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I don't think I've had this much fun since 1996, or was it 1997?

At the time it was mercurochrome I think, that started the argument.

When somebody tried the "sodium is also a deadly poison!" tact, nobody stepped up to point out how stupid it was. I made the fatal mistake of pointing out how stupid it was, and because the argument had been going on long before I showed up, it was obvious that nobody had mentioned how stupid it was, and what a surprise, instead of all the cool smart people (some said they were Doctors) going, "Well, yeah, that is a good point", they started cracking jokes and calling names and it was like a pack of wild monkeys gone crazy.

Of course at the time I was stupid and thought the facts would win the day. That if only they would open a textbook they would realize it was scientific fact, and all would be forgiven.

I couldn't have been more wrong. Nobody ever admitted anything. In fact, the water is deadly argument showed up, then the air is deadly argument showed up.

It was a fallacy zoo! I thought it was all a joke, that they were just putting the new guy on, having some sport.

But it was deadly serious man! They were not kidding!

I bet to this day, most everybody involved still thinks that sodium dissolved in water is deadly. That sodium can kill!

Potassium too!

Monty Python felt right at home.
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  #165  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Seriously F-X, I have no idea what your point is anymore. Can you restate for the peanut gallery?
You have to be kidding me.
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  #166  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

OK maybe you are serious. Hang on, I have to push a few buttons.
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  #167  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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I can think of few more gut-wrenching tragedies than the serious illness to death of a child. Blaming "someone else" makes sense.
I can remember when autism was "blamed" on the parents. So yes, blaming somebody made sense to all the medical people in the world. And since it was the parents fault, nobody looked for a physical cause for autism.

It was a certain type of "cold mother" that caused autism. The medical world had declared (with no evidence at all) that autism was caused by bad parenting.

One can hardly imagine that at the same period in time, mercury based "medicine" (calomel, or mercurous chloride) was used as a medical treatment for teething.

The result of this was Acrodynia (also known as "calomel disease," "erythredemic polyneuropathy," and "pink disease"). It was mercury poisoning. It was also commonplace amongst children in the first half of the 20th century.

Some Doctors figured out it was mercury causing it, but it took decades before people stopped using mercury as medicine.

It's hard to believe, but in the 1930s, 40s, 50s, and even the 60s, almost every Doctors didn't know mercury was a potent nerve poison. A deadly substance to developing children, to a fetus, and of course, to adults.

Some people still insist, despite all the evidence, that mercury isn't harmful. I'm not kidding. They think mercury is OK to inject into a human body. To use in fillings, to actually place mercury into a living human being.

And no amount of evidence will convince most of them. Having made up their minds (with no evidence) that mercury is somehow not a poison, they try to defend it.

Smart people realize that if a Doctor or researcher or internet expert can't grasp that mercury is bad for human beings, then anything else they say is suspect.

Because if you are that close minded, that insane, to insist that mercury is OK (it's just a little bit, it isn't that bad, there is no evidence, or what ever fucked up reasoning they use), if you keep insisting mercury is OK, then you have lost the audience.

I doubt everybody gets together and plans it out. Some conspiracies are just a conspiracy of ignorance.

The worst thing about it, even when a smart skeptical person just points out the facts about mercury (thimerosal, mercury fillings, coal fired power plants, whatever), the very people who are supposed to be skeptical, to be scientific, they act like idiots and turn on their own, throwing out claims and ad homs and using logical fallacies. And they don't get it.

It's a closed mind that won't even look at evidence.

You can present anything and everything in the world, it won't change the facts. Mercury is a poison. Thimerosal is used in a vaccine for one reason. To kill any living organism that contaminates a vial of a vaccine. Which it does quite well.

Injecting any amount of any mercury based chemical compound into a human being is a bad thing. You can talk and reason and say anything in the world, it won't change that.

ADDENDUM

OK re-reading that screed it is easy to see how I sidetracked the topic into a conversation about mercury, thimerosal and toxicity.

What the hell was I thinking?

Oh that's right, the study is about mercury levels, and how different they were between autistic children and normal kids. Studies showed that autistic kids had lower amounts of mercury running around in their little child bodies. Several studies showed this to be a scientific fact.

One study also showed that the normal kids had huge amounts of mercury compared to the national average, which got a few people upset I'm sure.

I mean, wtf?

So this study figured out that autistic kids avoid fish, because they are "picky eaters", and and somehow the mommas also avoided mercury, so the reason mercury levels are low in autistic kids is they avoid fish.

The study was to figure out why autistic kids have low mercury levels.

I apologize for getting the topic all about mercury and thimerosal and how mercury is toxic and levels and all that WHO nonsense about acceptable levels and mercury being toxic.

Mostly because it caused the "sodium is deadly" fallacy to appear, and I am really sorry the "water is deadly" thing showed up, but hey, it happens.

I'm also really sorry for making a lot of people feel stupid. You are not. Really. I'm sorry.

Your jokes were funny too. You are actually clever and witty, and you just keep telling people sodium and chlorine are deadly poisons. Water too.

And mercury is really not that bad.

No wait, that won't work. Because nobody will buy that.

Here's how you can find out the safe level of mercury for living organisms. You know, the amount of mercury that science considers absolutely safe.

Ask a scientist who works with in vitro fertilization of animals. Yeah, that guy over there in the ultra clean room combining expensive sperm with eggs in a dish.

Ask him how many molecules of mercury, of any kind, organic or inorganic, ask him how many molecules are safe to add to the dish he is working on.

There's the answer for what is considered "safe", as in, will do no harm.

The "mercury isn't that bad" argument is pretty much the same as the "lead isn't that bad" one.

Industry fought like hell against studies, science, and eventually legislation that reduced lead in the environment.

Most people think lead was removed from gasoline in the seventies. Like mercury in vaccines, it was removed from "most gasoline". Some light planes and old farm equipment still use leaded gas. All the time.

It was considered acceptable risk to keep from imposing an economic burden, by making people buy new equipment or planes.

Did that help?
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  #168  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

While there is no sharp definition of "toxic" that specifically supports FX's bloviations, we can at least say that, so far as we know, there is no metabolic use for mercury in the human body. Fair enough; what can be made of this datum when it comes to vaccinations?

Nothing, really. Were it the case that there was a metabolically necessary lower and upper bound for mercury level in the body -- deficiency below that band, toxic above it -- and flu vaccinations required the toxic level as a preservative, then presumably FX's point (whatever it is; nothing more precise than "Let's be careful!" can be gleaned from the totality of his/her thrashing about) would go through anyhow. The only work done by pointing out the lack of a lower bound in the case of mercury is to show the generality of the claim that mercury intake should be minimized if possible. Again, fair enough. Nobody has disagreed with this point.

That's why it's important that other metabolically unnecessary and cumulatively harmful substances/effects are routinely used in medicine, because -- in the quantities/concentrations they are used -- it is judged that their use does more good than harm, all things considered. Barium, for example, and arsenic, and radiation more generally. This blocks the inference from "X is metabolically unnecessary and sufficiently dangerous to warrant precaution at any level" to "It's wrong to use X medically". Anyone wanting to derive that conclusion for any particular X will need more premises, about the specific risks at specific levels compared to specific benefits, for that particular X, at that particular level of intake. Hysterically shrieking "X is metabolically unnecessary and sufficiently dangerous to warrant caution at any level!" will accomplish fuck-all on its own, no matter how many imprecations of stupidity accompany it.

Artificial versus natural elements is a red herring. And toxic versus non-toxic is a red herring. What matters is whether large-scale use of the flu vaccine reduces the risk of illness to a substantially greater extent than it induces the risk of illness; and how the reduced and induced illnesses compare in severity and cost. There is powerful evidence that the flu vaccine reduces deaths from the flu, though the extent of the reduction is hard to determine. Hence it is most germane, as Lady Shea has emphasized all along, whether there is any solid evidence to the effect that the amounts of thimerosal in the flu vaccine causes (e.g.,) ASD. Right now the best scientific answer seems to be "no", but science always has the power to surprise us with a different answer, given new data and better methods.

So of course we should be continuing to research both the effectiveness and the risks of the flu vaccine. Again, exactly zero people have denied this, so that can hardly be the point at issue either.
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  #169  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

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Seriously F-X, I have no idea what your point is anymore. Can you restate for the peanut gallery?
You have to be kidding me.
I am beginning to think you have no idea what your point is.

Would recommend you dispense with the personal conflicts--ignore the Watsers who have conniption fits if you dare disagree with whatever pet theory they read off a political blog.

Simply state what your point is: hithertofore, each claim you have made has been shot down, forcing you to move your goal posts and now, basically, contradict yourself.

Relax.

Oh and there is no reason to make every sentence of a long paragraph a separate sentence. Makes the eyeballs bleed.

--J.D.
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  #170  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

The short version-

The study in the OP wasn't about vaccines, it was about mercury levels, and why they differ in autistic children and normal kids.

They decided it was because autistic kids don't want to eat fish.

I posted a link to a new study from England that says autism rates have always been the same, 1 in a hundred.

This means vaccines have nothing to do with it.

The lead researcher on the study in the OP thinks environmental causes might be to blame, and wants research to focus on that.

science has shown mercury levels do differ in autistic kids, as well as lead and other industrial pollutants.

Nobody posted any definitive study that shows vaccines cause autism. We don't even know if a vaccine can cause autism, because nobody has done animal studies to see.

Thimerosal is a toxin, but there are acceptable levels of toxins, which vary greatly.

The EPA and CDC and every other agency based on science agrees no mercury compound is considered safe. But we set levels for what is acceptable risk.

Sodium is not a poison. Chlorine (as found in nature) is not a poison. Both are essential for life.

Sodium metal and Chlorine gas are both dangerous, and not recommended for consumption.

I'm stupid, and you are not.

I think that covers most of it.

Oh wait, and thimerosal doesn't kill everything, just bacteria and fungi. And it was banned as an antiseptic because it was absorbed through the skin and caused nerve damage.

But when it is injected into the body it isn't that bad. Maybe.

Nobody has done any animal studies yet. We don't even know what could happen if you got too much of it.

Studies to compare vaccinated kids with non-vaccinated kids have not been done.

But looking at figures of new autistic kids reported to public health agencies is a good way to tell what is happening with autism rates. (They are going up). Except in England, which did a study and found they are not. They are the same as always.

And some other things, but I forgot what they were.
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Hey Doc! I thought this was a waste of time?
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Old 11-01-2009, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Sort of. Let me sum up what I think the opposition is.

1. Yes mercury is toxic and harmful to humans.
2. Yes Thimerosal is harmful to humans. (Though not this is not the same as elemental mercury so it may be less or more harmful and may be harmful in different ways.)
3. Even harmful substances in small amounts can be tolerated by humans. It is very dependent on what the substance is and how it effects the body.
4. Sometimes something that is mildly harmful needs to be endured to help us against something more harmful.
5. If Thimerosal gets more people vaccinated against very deadly diseases then it may be worth the small amount of harm that it does. (if any)

Also some things that went unstated, but seem obvious: Of course studies should be done on the effects of Thimerosal and other substances. More information is always better. Let's experiment on animals and study the effects on humans that are already being exposed.

Oh and there doesn't appear to be any evidence supporting a connection between mercury (or thimerosal) and autism. We are not sure what causes autism. Research on this continues. I hope we are allowing research to continue on any reasonable leads without interference.

So which parts are too stupid for you to bother responding to?
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  #173  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

It is sort of. Even if I solved the mystery of autism and could answer all questions about everything, it would still be a waste of time.

Because I am not going to solve it, and don't have the answers, it's really a waste of time.

Except for the sheep picture. That really added a lot.
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

I am overjoyed that my introduction of the "stupid" meme has resulted in widespread infection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
1. Yes mercury is toxic and harmful to humans.
2. Yes Thimerosal is harmful to humans. (Though not this is not the same as elemental mercury so it may be less or more harmful and may be harmful in different ways.)
3. Even harmful substances in small amounts can be tolerated by humans. It is very dependent on what the substance is and how it effects the body.
4. Sometimes something that is mildly harmful needs to be endured to help us against something more harmful.
5. If Thimerosal gets more people vaccinated against very deadly diseases then it may be worth the small amount of harm that it does. (if any)
1. Good point.
2. Good point.
3. True dat. However mercury has no safe level, just acceptable ones.
4. Very much so.
5. Yes and no. Because it is an issue with the public, and is not verified by research to be GRAS, and is only used for economic reasons, it can't be justified at present.

There is also little evidence that the mercury containing vaccines cancel out the risk from the unknown effects of the vaccine. We do know that based on sheer numbers there will be deadly consequences from flu vaccines, as well as disability and expense, for a few people. few compared to the whole of course. If you are one of the five thousand people crippled by a vaccine, that figure doesn't mean squat.

Admitting the danger, and finding out how to prevent any damage, would do more to reassure people than insisting it is for the public good.

Most people could care less about the public good.
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: This Just in! Vaccines STILL Do Not Cause Autism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
Of course studies should be done on the effects of Thimerosal and other substances. More information is always better. Let's experiment on animals and study the effects on humans that are already being exposed.
You are very smart. I like that idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumb View Post
Oh and there doesn't appear to be any evidence supporting a connection between mercury (or thimerosal) and autism. We are not sure what causes autism. Research on this continues. I hope we are allowing research to continue on any reasonable leads without interference.
Excellent points.

If I was the type to stir up trouble I would mention that there is evidence to associate mercury, as well as other heavy metals, with learning disabilities, and serious health problems, especially when the exposure is prenatal.
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