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Old 07-28-2014, 06:27 PM
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News Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Sam Harris: Why don’t I criticize Israel? - Salon.com
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Old 07-28-2014, 06:37 PM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Answer: "because I'm an anti-muslim racist."
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Old 07-28-2014, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Jerry Coyne babbles about Sam Harris's piece

Why, why, Coyne laments, do so many atheists hate Harris? :ohnoes: Well, it's because Harris makes them think, don't you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyne
Really, is it that hateful to ask people to think about whether torture or ethnic profiling might be justified?
Nice strawman there, Jerry, you idiot. :lol:

Oh, and liberals tend to give a "a pass" to Muslims, whatever the fuck that racist comment is supposed to mean.

Finally, if you feel like commenting at his courageous blog, just remember, Jerry tells you upfront he doesn't like to hear comments he doesn't like to hear! Really, Jerry Coyne, is it asking too much to let people comment freely without your censorship, so that you might have to think about whether you are a great big bigoted ass just like your pal Sam? Hmm? :chin:
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Old 07-28-2014, 08:02 PM
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I read some of your foolish scree, then just skimmed the rest.
 
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Not to go all godwin but he's right, all of you horrible people condemn Hitler out of hand but have you ever stopped to think whether his torture and racial profiling of the Jews is justified, I think not! You're as bad as Hitler for not considering Hitler could be right and the Jews need to be exterminated.

The comments section be like:

:sockpuppet:

Edit to add: I didn't know who this Sam Harris guy was so I looked him up, seems like somewhere in his rambling screed he could have mentioned "Oh and I was raised Jewish, so that might have something to do with it."

Last edited by Ari; 07-28-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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  #5  
Old 07-28-2014, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

When last I heard of Sam Harris, he was making a big deal out of something he understood very little about, and confusing his own nearly complete lack of understanding for other people's blinkered ignorance.

So, you know. Still at it.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

I didn't know he was. Anyway, I was raised Catholic, doesn't mean I endorse the fracking IRA.

ETA: poasting in-betweeners! :shakebrain:
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:05 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

OMG Sam Harris could be a cool atheist spokesmodel- neuroscientist kinda young and clean cut- but instead he is just a raging asshole that needs to fuck off!
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Old 07-29-2014, 02:21 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

I believe that's called a Mini :dawkins:
(I bet 10 internets he's a libertarian).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
I didn't know he was. Anyway, I was raised Catholic, doesn't mean I endorse the fracking IRA.
Well sure, but if you denied the validity of the IRA state while supporting their cause of genocide, it could possibly be due in part to your upbringing. At the very least I would hope you would acknowledge that upbringing when supporting a religious extremist group's extremist actions.

It's still no excuse but part of his argument seems to be, 'I'm an atheist and thus impartial and I still support Israel' when that impartial bit is clearly a lie.

ETA: Getting a bit off track there seems to be a commonality of published atheist activists to act high and mighty that they have questioned religion that they are now free thinkers who have thrown off the shackles of brainwashing unlike the average pleb, and then fall right into the trap of other brainwashed and bigoted views, in part because they now think they are too mighty and logical to ever be taken in such a way. Case in point is good ol Dawkins, who exists as a pure logic being now that he has questioned the church, but Women in science?! Never! Not with all those lady parts confusing their tiny brains.

Last edited by Ari; 07-29-2014 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

I lean toward Jim Wright's take on the conflict, I'm tired of it.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:39 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod View Post
I lean toward Jim Wright's take on the conflict, I'm tired of it.
Stonekettle Station: An Eye For An Eye In The Country Of The Blind
Quote:
Everybody has a historical claim, no matter whose history you believe.

Both sides are right.

Both sides are wrong.

Both sides are guilty of atrocities, both sides are aggrieved, both sides are convinced that the other side are terrorists, and both sides are positive they’re justified in their bloody violence.
That sums it up for me.

So, why would I take sides? Well, everything else being equal, I prefer governments with a measure of democracy to those based on theocratic and/or venal dictatorships.

As for Sam Harris, the best that can be said about him is that he is not quite as bad as the tabloid loudmouth from Minnesota.

Generally speaking, the public figureheads of atheism tend to suffer quite severely from foot-in-mouth disease whenever they stray beyond the topic of atheism or their area of expertise. All of them, although Ayaan Hirsi Ali and the late Christopher Hitchens somewhat less so than others.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Less? Eh no.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a selfish POS who fucked over her family and everyone she ever met worse than Aynus Rand. And Hitchens was almost as bad. Warmongering asshole.

And why take sides? Dunno, why take sides in Bosnia? Because a modern army is bringing all of its heavy artillery and airpower to bear on a helpless population?
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
And why take sides?
Because everything else being equal, I prefer governments with a measure of democracy to those based on theocratic and/or venal dictatorships.

What do you think will happen once Palestine becomes a nation?
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Old 07-29-2014, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

I would say my sympathies lie with the innocent Palestinians who have the misfortune of being in the crossfire. As for the conflict, I don't think it will end until one or both sides is dead and gone. These Semites (Jews and Arabs alike) hold grudges for hundreds of years, if not thousands.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:30 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Same here. It just doesn't take me long to make up my mind what sort of government and society I prefer to survive when faced with a choice between capitalist democracy and feudal theocracy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingfod View Post
I would say my sympathies lie with the innocent Palestinians who have the misfortune of being in the crossfire.
Well, yeah. But apart from that it makes me sick that a) we are paying for the repair of everything that Israel is destroying, as we paid for most of it in the first place and b) our politicians are going out of their way to defend actions that they were condemning when Assad did them to his own people. And not just condemning, they were actively supporting his opponents instead of him. So c) I think we are on the wrong side here. Not even saying we should support the Palestinians like we do the Syrian rebels (or that we should support those rebels), just saying we shouldn't be supporting Israel. Don't have an opinion, fine by me, but we are not neutral right now and THAT is my beef.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Same here. It just doesn't take me long to make up my mind what sort of government and society I prefer to survive when faced with a choice between capitalist democracy and feudal theocracy.
I think you still have weird ideas about Israel that don't correspond with reality, same about the Palestinians. Unless you meant Israel when you referred to a feudal theocracy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
It just doesn't take me long to make up my mind what sort of government and society I prefer to survive when faced with a choice between capitalist democracy and feudal theocracy.
I think you still have weird ideas about Israel that don't correspond with reality, same about the Palestinians. Unless you meant Israel when you referred to a feudal theocracy.
I keep saying semblance of democracy when I refer to the Israeli government because the parties representing orthodox Jews have more power than the number of voters they represent. As such there is an element of theocracy in Israel's government, but it is by no means a dominant one. Looking at the Palestinian Covenant, however, the situation is quite clear: Secularism is explicitly and totally rejected. From section 27: "...we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea." It seems it is you who entertains weird ideas.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

How does that quoted passage tell you anything other than that the PC does not countenance a strictly secular government? You already noted that the Israeli state doesn't.

But even if the trend among Palestinians were toward strongly religious government, so what? Assassinating and jailing the secular leadership and then claiming that the remaining leadership isn't secular is not a form of moral virtue -- and favouring it is not a form of moral insight.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
Looking at the Palestinian Covenant, however, the situation is quite clear: Secularism is explicitly and totally rejected. From section 27: "...we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea." It seems it is you who entertains weird ideas.
I could be wrong, but I think what you quote above is from the Hamas Charter, and not the Palestinian Covenant. Big difference.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Yeah, I figured H meant the Palestinian Charter, not Covenant, but it says nothing of the sort. So it must be the Hamas Charter that justifies this civilian butchery. Of course Israeli government officials are forever getting caught saying in public that their aim is to obliterate or exile the Palestinian population in Gazans, but, like the theocratic elements of the Israeli state and the fact that Hamas was democratically elected, that stuff doesn't quite count. The term "semblance" will be folded, spindled and mutilated until Israel is one small but entirely decisive centi-semblance superior.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

It's the Hamas Covenant. Easy enough to look up, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Munny View Post
How does that quoted passage tell you anything other than that the PC does not countenance a strictly secular government?
It does not say "the PC does not countenance a strictly secular government." It says "we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea." That is an unambiguous, unqualified rejection of secularism.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

The Hamas Charter, or Covenant, is not the same thing as the Palestinian Charter, or Covenant. You attributed the passage you quoted to the PC, but it's not there. It's in the HC. Since they are different, your working assumption seems to be that any future Palestinian state will be indistinguishable from Hamas. I see no basis for this assumption. But even if the Palestinian people, in a united state, installed Hamas as the government, so what? Why is democracy OK except when people vote in governments that the U.S. doesn't like?

The entire bit about destroying Israel strikes me as a huge red herring. The Palestinian people, united or not, will never have the ability to destroy Israel. Only Israel can destroy Israel, and for the long term anyway, it seems to be doing a good job of working toward that goal.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

If there were to be a one state solution (by some magic), both Jews and Muslims would have to agree to a secular state (and presumably Christian and Druze minorities would be strongly in favor).

As it is, Israel is drifting towards a more theocratic Jewish state as the hyper-Orthodox population continues to grow at a faster rate than the more secular population. There are theocratic proponents on both sides, but there are also people who would prefer secular, pluralistic societies on both sides as well. With the population divided in such a tribalistic way, the secularists on both sides are put in a difficult position, while the rabid religionists gain more power because of the conflict. It's hard to argue for secularism when there are people in both communities arguing for the extermination of the other and they both are actively killing people. I don't think that demographic trends in Israel can continue for much longer without the state losing even the "semblance" of secular democracy they currently have. And I don't think fundamentalist Jews achieving total control will lead anywhere but to the explicit ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

I think that the US could help to prevent such an outcome but only if we withdraw our aid to Israel.

I don't think Hamas would be so successful if Israel became a single, secular state with a reconciliation process modeled on that of South Africa. I don't think that most Palestinians would choose a futile conflict for Islamic theocracy if peaceful, secular democracy and religious pluralism was the other choice.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermit View Post
It's the Hamas Covenant. Easy enough to look up, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Munny View Post
How does that quoted passage tell you anything other than that the PC does not countenance a strictly secular government?
It does not say "the PC does not countenance a strictly secular government." It says "we are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea." That is an unambiguous, unqualified rejection of secularism.
It's precisely as unambiguous as not exchanging the present Jewish Israel with a secular one.
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Old 07-30-2014, 12:48 AM
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If there were to be a one state solution (by some magic), both Jews and Muslims would have to agree to a secular state (and presumably Christian and Druze minorities would be strongly in favor).
Druze are technically Muslims even though they believe in reincarnation. There's Baha'i though, which is a seperate religion. Also non-believers born in all those communities of course.
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Old 07-30-2014, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

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Originally Posted by davidm View Post
Why is democracy OK except when people vote in governments that the U.S. doesn't like?
That's pretty much SOP for the US, though, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I don't think Hamas would be so successful if Israel became a single, secular state with a reconciliation process modeled on that of South Africa. I don't think that most Palestinians would choose a futile conflict for Islamic theocracy if peaceful, secular democracy and religious pluralism was the other choice.
I don't know if there's much I can do about it from here, other than to be vocal and not let common falsehoods and misconceptions go unchallenged, but that's the solution I keep hoping for.
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