"If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention."

[Sweetie]

Quoting godfry n. glad on the thread title, if I may.

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Which augmented my surprise when I sat down to eat it and I doscovered that each bite was like an orgasm while having sex with a petite teenage girl just out of puberty.

-Does anybody else see problems with comments like these? I guess I see that girls just out of puberty are ten to thirteen years old. Petite, small, young and tight is what is implied. Teenaged is specified. Do thirteen year olds qualify as teenagers?

I guess what I'm thinking is the men might have these desires, but I'm wondering if perhaps they might be better kept to themselves? Will I be attacked or disliked for having a BIG PROBLEM with any sort of what I see as pedophilia? Did I read the comment wrong or read more into it than is there?

I'm a mother btw.

I understand that these girls would be almost physically women, but I don't consider them women, not mentally for a certainty. I don't think that it should be socially acceptable to talk about them as if they are women, or are appropriate objects of a man's desires. Just some free thoughts.

[Beth]

Actually, yes, these comments make me a little ill. I was sexually abused most of my childhood and deflowered before I hit second grade. Needless to say, I endured a horrible childhood and spent many years in adulthood coming to grips. I still have many sexual issues that I probably would not have if I had not been introduced to adult sex at such a young age.

I have a young daughter. I would have no qualms about kicking the living fuck out of some man if he ever did a fraction of the things that was done to me to her. (But hopefully if it did, I could restrain my emotions for the sake of my children and allow for authorities to handle the situation.) My daughter should be allowed to mature away from some perverts predatory lust and come into her own sexually with someone who is her peer.

So to me, men who fantisize about younger girls kinda disgust me. I mean, if I made that statement, but instead spoke of a young boy just out of puberty, I think it would be much less socially acceptable.

(For the record, if some female predatorily seduced my son, my reaction would be just as hostile)

[Godless Dave]

I don't approve of the quoted comment either. But I read "just out of puberty" as being 15 or 16. Not that that's OK either, but better than 10-13.

[Sweetie]

My sister-in-law hit puberty at 9, so did my sister. Normal is 12 but these days girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier. My eldest is eight, and let's just say....she's almost as tall as me and she's developing. That's just to say, puberty and girls is 9-12.

[Ex-zombie]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

I guess what I'm thinking is the men might have these desires, but I'm wondering if perhaps they might be better kept to themselves? Will I be attacked or disliked for having a BIG PROBLEM with any sort of what I see as pedophilia? Did I read the comment wrong or read more into it than is there?

As the parent of two daughters I also find that such comments make me uncomfortable. I certainly don't dislike you for having a problem with such comments as I react the same way. Pedophilia is not something I find amusing.

[Roland98]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

I don't approve of the quoted comment either. But I read "just out of puberty" as being 15 or 16. Not that that's OK either, but better than 10-13.

I agree. Hell, I didn't even start my period until I was almost 15 (genetics I'd guess, coupled with little body fat at that age). I don't know how long it takes to get "out of puberty," but I would assume as well it means an older teenager. As Sweetie says, "normal" is 12, and I'd add several years to get "out." I'm no fan of pedophilia and have a daughter myself, but I'm pretty sure that's not what A.A. intended.

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

My sister-in-law hit puberty at 9, so did my sister. Normal is 12 but these days girls are hitting puberty earlier and earlier. My eldest is eight, and let's just say....she's almost as tall as me and she's developing. That's just to say, puberty and girls is 9-12.

The 9-12 range is for the inception of puberty, not the end of it, and Abe specifically said a teenage girl just out of puberty. Does it make me uncomfortable? Sure. Does it outrage me? No.

The lolita fantasy (Nabokov's title character was 12, iirc) is a staple of the sexual landscape, along with a myriad other anti-social impulses which would be both immoral and criminal to actually perform. As long as it remains a fantasy or as in this case, a metaphor, I'd rather expend my outrage on the real rapists and child molestors.

[Beth]

Maybe it wasn't, perhaps my personal idea of puberty is different than his. I has fully developed breasts by age 13, I started getting them at around nine, as my daughter is. I started my period at 14, but I also had an eating disorder that caused me to go on spurts of eating enormous amounts of food, to eating only toast and water on alternate weeks. Therefore, I think I delayed my menses. By the time I was 13, I had older men, complete strangers, come up to me in stores and hit on me most vulgarly, or propose marriage to me. So maybe my experience in dealing with dirty men and my personal experience with adolescent development has tainted my interpretation of this statement.

[Sweetie]

The lolita fantasy (Nabokov's title character was 12, iirc) is a staple of the sexual landscape, along with a myriad other anti-social impulses which would be both immoral and criminal to actually perform. As long as it remains a fantasy or as in this case, a metaphor, I'd rather expend my outrage on the real rapists and child molestors.

-the fantasy indicates small and young. He likes Asian girls. Now, with this Yaoi stuff having been brought to mind, what I see when I see a Asian young adult male, is a white young boy because accross cultural barriers, that is how it comes accross. Asians are smaller, older teenagers look like young children to us.

Anyways, it's out there in cyber-space and I think the impact is greater than one thinks. This morning on the news, seven or nine teenagers dead in cars in two different places in Japan, a suicide pact from online meetings.

I'm just saying, I think it's necessary to respond to such comments with the normal social disapproval because some of these people could be pedophiles. I'm saying that it offends me as a parent.

[pescifish]

I would imagine 'just out of puberty' would mean anywhere from 13 to 17, but more like 15-16, as Godless Dave suggests. Apparently, to many men, lusting after barely-post-pubescence is A-O.K.. I wonder how many of them would feel that way if the young ladies were their nieces or even their best friend's daughters when interaction with the young woman reminds them of who that individual really is. I.e., the young woman was not just a sexual object.

FWIW, I cringed at Abe's remark when I read it. But, hey, the folks on this board tend to like well crafted sexual remarks which may seem semi-outrageous in jest or otherwise and livius praised him for his praise, so 'go with the flow' and all. I assumed it was just for the shock-drama effect, not a real let's-go-do-it sort of comment.

If I understood you correctly Sweetie, like you, I'm well aware that some men have a tendency to encourage their own just-barely-post-pubescent fantasies in private, but when a casual comment is made such as the one above it does seem to take it to another level. It gives me the impression the expectation is that most of society would understand the experience Abe had to be the most wondrous of all amazing and wonderful things. That sort of comment, in my opinion, encourages that pure objectification of our most vulnerable young adults.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Beth

By the time I was 13, I had older men, complete strangers, come up to me in stores and hit on me most vulgarly, or propose marriage to me. So maybe my experience in dealing with dirty men .....

-Me too.

I just know alot of people the victim of pedophilia. I've known a few pedophiles. My sister was a victim, some of my friends were victims. I've been a mild victim in the above way. I know a guy with two kids, the eldest a pedophile. The older son was sleeping with the younger son unbeknownst to the parents for years. It's just all very ugly and I don't find it the least bit funny even any intimation to such things.

[lisarea]

I didn't see the OP, but I'd tend to take a pretty generous view in interpreting it, and simply ask what he meant.

I could see, particularly as it's an offhand comment, interpreting 'puberty' as 'adolescence,' which is a broader range, encompassing physical puberty plus the transition to adulthood, probably ending in the late teens or even early 20s.

If anything would bother me, it's that the term puberty didn't set off an alarm causing more careful wording or something, but even that doesn't bother me too much as it stands.

Again, I'm not qualified to explain what someone else meant by something they said, but my policy would be to assume the most generous explanation, and then just ask.

[seebs]

Is it a tasteless metaphor? Yes. But does it communicate effectively? Probably.

Unless his intent wasn't to say "each bite made you feel your were probably a felon, and with good reason".

[livius drusus]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

Anyways, it's out there in cyber-space and I think the impact is greater than one thinks. This morning on the news, seven or nine teenagers dead in cars in two different places in Japan, a suicide pact from online meetings.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that naked teens porn on the internet leads to child abuse, or that child predators find victims online or ...?

I'm just saying, I think it's necessary to respond to such comments with the normal social disapproval because some of these people could be pedophiles. I'm saying that it offends me as a parent.

That's a fair point, and I'm glad you started a thread to express your disapproval. I'm not a parent and was raised in Italy where I was hit on and whistled at by men on the street as soon as I sprouted breasts (ca 12). I just blew it off, never felt unsafe or the target of people who would harm me, so perhaps my idea of normal social disapproval differs significantly from yours and Beth's.

There's certainly a line to cross here, but for me, lusting after teenagers doesn't cross it. For one thing, a pedophile by definition is sexually attracted to children with no secondary sex characteristics, not post-puberty teens.

[Beth]

That's a fair point, and I'm glad you started a thread to express your disapproval. I'm not a parent and was raised in Italy where I was hit on and whistled at by men on the street as soon as I sprouted breasts (ca 12). I just blew it off, never felt unsafe or the target of people who would harm me, so perhaps my idea of normal social disapproval differs significantly from yours and Beth's.

I would have men pin me to the shelves, old men grab my ass, find a reason to grope my breasts, I even had a few reach up my skirt. I think that is plenty reason to feel threatened. Even in the Strawberry Festival Parade, there would always be some nasty Shriner pirate that would tell me to give him a kiss or flash my bra for the beads, which shocked me to no end they would try such debauchery in a fundy town's parade.

The marriage proposals, well, I just thought pathetic and I would laugh about with others. Some compliments flattered, and were kind. Even cat calls, like, "Hey Baby!", or, "I've died and gone to heaven!",- stuff like that only made me smile. But when a man entered my personal space, violated it, I was very scared.

[Sweetie]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that naked teens porn on the internet leads to child abuse, or that child predators find victims online or ...?

-no, what I meant basically that laughing stuff like that off, or ignoring it is not something I can do. This is the internet after all. You assume that people on the internet would never do, nor have ever done stuff that they fantasize about. Innocent until some reason to suspect guilt. I understand that. All I'm saying is that there could indeed be pedophiles and people who commit sex crimes here online with us anywhere we go and why I bothered to say all that is because it occurs to me that if I laugh about it, I could be laughing along with a man who is stalking my child, or someone else's child. I could be joking and laughing about young girls and such with someone who spends their afternoon parked alongside a place where children play. I'm just saying that you never know.

That's a fair point, and I'm glad you started a thread to express your disapproval. I'm not a parent and was raised in Italy where I was hit on and whistled at by men on the street as soon as I sprouted breasts (ca 12).

-I wasn't just hit on, but I wasn't officially abused either. It got to the point where I felt completely dirty by the men who were looking, with that ugly to me then look in their eyes. It was just very ugly. I was young, I felt tainted. I still think it's ugly. Fine guys, have your reaction, your impulses, but that doesn't mean that they are good or funny, people actually get hurt by them, and yes, imagine if another adult is looking at your young daughter that way.

I just blew it off, never felt unsafe or the target of people who would harm me, so perhaps my idea of normal social disapproval differs significantly from yours and Beth's.

-your experience was different than mine. Perhaps you have not experienced the ugly side of it. I just think that it's becoming way too common, this pedophia stuff. There's no real way to see if the rates are increasing because at any time there could have been the same amount but less people coming forward, but....it seems to be all around me at least, too common in the people I've met and the things that have happened to people I know.

There's certainly a line to cross here, but for me, lusting after teenagers doesn't cross it. For one thing, a pedophile by definition is sexually attracted to children with no secondary sex characteristics, not post-puberty teens.

-I understand that. I said in my first post that I understand that these girls after having hit puberty are physically women, but they are not mentally women. And once again, I find the small and young combination not so great.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by seebs

Is it a tasteless metaphor? Yes. But does it communicate effectively? Probably.

Unless his intent wasn't to say "each bite made you feel your were probably a felon, and with good reason".

Ah, I did not think of this. Perhaps so.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by seebs

Is it a tasteless metaphor? Yes. But does it communicate effectively? Probably.

Unless his intent wasn't to say "each bite made you feel your were probably a felon, and with good reason".

-sinfully delicious and criminally delicious is one thing. Orgasm with a small, tight, and young girl is another. The "just after puberty" part was unnecessary. He could have said "teenager" and I wouldn't even have thought twice. Virgins are just as tight after puberty as they are at sixteen and seventeen, but maybe not as small, who knows.

[Beth]

-no, what I meant basically that laughing stuff like that off, or ignoring it is not something I can do. This is the internet after all. You assume that people on the internet would never do, nor have ever done stuff that they fantasize about. Innocent until some reason to suspect guilt. I understand that. All I'm saying is that there could indeed be pedophiles and people who commit sex crimes here online with us anywhere we go and why I bothered to say all that is because it occurs to me that if I laugh about it, I could be laughing along with a man who is stalking my child, or someone else's child. I could be joking and laughing about young girls and such with someone who spends their afternoon parked alongside a place where children play. I'm just saying that you never know.

Ifeel the same way. It is very hard for me to get past the ickyness of it and see the humor. But I think Seebs probably did get it right, what the true meaning of the statement was supposed to be.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by Beth

Ifeel the same way. It is very hard for me to get past the ickyness of it and see the humor. But I think Seebs probably did get it right, what the true meaning of the statement was supposed to be.

-I allowed for that possibility in my first post. But I find the combination of young and small to still be a tad disturbing.

[Sweetie]

and once again, that was assuming that puberty is in between ages 9-12, and right after puberty is 10-13.

"The pedophile must be above age 16, and the sexual attraction must involve a child of age 13 or younger who is at least 5 years younger than the adult."

http://www.umkc.edu/sites/hsw/issues/pedophil.html

I had asked if whether or not a 13 year old would fit into his idea of teenager.

Basically, I was just saying, if puberty is considered this, and 13 year olds qualify as a just after puberty teenager, then it's disturbing. To say such about a 16 year old wouldn't bother me, which is why the "just after puberty" was so disturbing. He could indeed have been meaning a 16 year old, I don't know but as it was with my definition.

[Dingfod]

I must not be paying attention because I'm not outraged. There was a time, not so long ago her in the US, where a 14 year old girl would have been considered of marriage age and by 17 or 18 be considered an old maid and virtually unmarriageable. In fact in some parts of the world today it is still the case. A hundred years ago girls were not reaching puberty nearly as early as they are now, many were probably just reaching puberty by that age. Ironically, we've extended adulthood in the other direction (with the exception of the death penalty).

Modern western society is demanding they stay children far longer than what they used to. We don't expect the children to be adults, or heaven forbid, act like adults (including sexual activity) much later than was expected in the past. We don't put that kind of responsibility on them today. We don't want them to have that kind of responsibility. Why is that? Because we can? Or is there some good reason not to? How did the societal norm change? When did it change?

My own mother got married at age 15, had me at age 16 and had three children by the age of 19. It wasn't that unusual back then. After my experience raising two daughters through their teen years, I'm inclined to think my grandparents avoided lots of the typical teenager-parent relationship problems, or at least farmed them out to my dad.

[lisarea]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

-your experience was different than mine. Perhaps you have not experienced the ugly side of it. I just think that it's becoming way too common, this pedophia stuff. There's no real way to see if the rates are increasing because at any time there could have been the same amount but less people coming forward, but....it seems to be all around me at least, too common in the people I've met and the things that have happened to people I know.

This is a fairly minor point, but it's one I've always thought is important.

I expect that pedophilia is not on the rise at all, and is probably even in decline. It is, however, being reported more, and you're hearing about it more for several reasons:

1. It's more an issue now than it has been in the past. Child pornography wasn't even specifically illegal in the US until 1982 or something.

2. It used to be considered a 'family matter' in many circles, and is far less so now. This is compounded by the very divided nature of (at least) American society up until recent decades. So, a sheltered suburban child of the 50s may have been far more unaware of what was going on outside his or her city limits than a sheltered suburban child today. In some rural communities, father-daughter incest was common. For example, in some families, if the mother died, the eldest daughter was expected to assume her mother's duties in the bedroom as well as the kitchen, and nobody did anything about it.

3. Just in general terms, people talk about sex more now than they did in the past, and there are few taboo subjects really left for general discussion.

I do find it interesting how we've worked out this newfound horror at 'pedophilia,' as it implies any sex with a minor, in context of the cultural and probably biological standard of young women being universally desirable. There's very little gray area, it seems. Because of the laws and the broad disapproval of pedophilia, it's considered perverted and criminal for a grown man to be attracted to a girl two days short of her 18th birthday, but 48 hours later, she's up for grabs, and it's generally considered A-OK for vile old men to publically and openly lust after her. It's necessary for laws to draw what seem like arbitrary lines, but it's just interesting to see how public perceptions have fallen so closely in line with the legal definitions like that.

I remember being about 11 when men started coming on to me in various ways. (This was about 30 years ago, AKA 'in ye olden times' for lack of a better font.) There was something of a transition period at first, when I'd see some man approach me--anywhere from late teens on up through the 40 to 105 demographic (that was one inclusive age category to me at the time)--and, as they got close enough to discern how young I really was, a lot of them would turn heel. But by the time I was about 13, just about nobody turned around anymore. And it was very, very common, even when I was at the lower end of that age range. Men are attracted to young girls for some reason. I thought it was gross. Old men just turned my stomach, and I even yelled at them sometimes and told them so. But gross as it is, I didn't really see it as pedophilia. I saw it as a little fucked up, and I see it as even more fucked up now, but I wouldn't call it pedophilia. It's just stupid, obnoxious, presumptuous old fucks acting gross.

-I understand that. I said in my first post that I understand that these girls after having hit puberty are physically women, but they are not mentally women. And once again, I find the small and young combination not so great.

Yeah, but are 20 year olds really mentally women, either? In a lot of cases, I don't think so.

I just don't think you can draw some arbitrary post-puberty line at which it's acceptable. I think it's only slightly less gross when middle-aged men pursue 19 year old girls than it is when they pursue 17 year old girls.

[Sweetie]

Originally Posted by warrenly

I must not be paying attention because I'm not outraged. There was a time, not so long ago her in the US, where a 14 year old girl would have been considered of marriage age and by 17 or 18 be considered an old maid and virtually unmarriageable.

-perhaps, but a hundred years ago slavery was also acceptable, and when did females get the vote? Nowadays, parents are outraged and take their children to have abortions if they are pregnant at 12 and 13. Maybe we learned something in the last fifty years?

In fact in some parts of the world today it is still the case. A hundred years ago girls were not reaching puberty nearly as early as they are now, many were probably just reaching puberty by that age.

-right, it used to be regularily 13 and 15. Now they figure because of chemicals and sexual exposure, I was just reading on the net, girls are developing earlier.

Ironically, we've extended adulthood in the other direction (with the exception of the death penalty).

-I'm not for the death penalty either.

Modern western society is demanding they stay children far longer than what they used to.

-in some ways, in other no. Do you think even a developed 13 year old is mentally a woman?

We don't expect the children to be adults, or heaven forbid, act like adults (including sexual activity) much later than was expected in the past. We don't put that kind of responsibility on them today.

-I agree with that.

We don't want them to have that kind of responsibility. Why is that? Because we can? Or is there some good reason not to? How did the societal norm change? When did it change?

-which is why I don't spoil my children and am trying to raise them to be resposible.

My own mother got married at age 15, had me at age 16 and had three children by the age of 19. It wasn't that unusual back then.

-But was it good for her?

After my experience raising two daughters through their teen years, I'm inclined to think my grandparents avoided lots of the typical teenager-parent relationship problems, or at least farmed them out to my dad.

-yes, but that would just cause more problems in the children of today because marriage isn't seen the same as it was back then. The chances of a couple being married young, 14 and 15 and actually staying together in this day and age is slim. Chances are, by 18-23, they will have questioned that decision intensely and most will have found that they didn't know what they were doing or getting into, weren't old enough to make an informed and responsible decision.

[Dingfod]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Sweetie

-perhaps, but a hundred years ago slavery was also acceptable, and when did females get the vote? Nowadays, parents are outraged and take their children to have abortions if they are pregnant at 12 and 13. Maybe we learned something in the last fifty years?

And what would that be?

Slavery wasn't acceptable 100 years ago, not anywhere in the modern world anyway, and U.S. women gained suffrage in 1920, beating most of the rest of the world in that regard, many by quite a few years, but neither on of these has anything at all to do with post pubescent teens and the men that lust after them.

-right, it used to be regularily 13 and 15. Now they figure because of chemicals and sexual exposure, I was just reading on the net, girls are developing earlier.

And yet, to my unaddressed point, we expect them to stay a child even longer.

-I'm not for the death penalty either.

I really only referenced the death penalty thing because the SCOTUS has agreed to hear a case related to that subject and I wanted to appear well-informed.

-in some ways, in other no. Do you think even a developed 13 year old is mentally a woman?

No, but I know one 23 year old young woman in my own family that isn't mentally a woman either. I know one that is 29 and isn't a woman mentally. I would say that some 13 year olds are lot closer to mental maturity than many that are quite older than that. It is very difficult to nail down a specific age standard because of that.

-I agree with that.

Why is that the case?

-which is why I don't spoil my children and am trying to raise them to be resposible.

I'm sure you do the very best you can in that regard. Some of us have coddled them a bit, only to regret it later. That goes to my point, coddling them and treating them like they're children only delays childhood. In my grandparent's day, children were expected to be doing farm work after about age 8. I think making them take that sort of responsibility led to earlier mental maturity.

-But was it good for her?

Who knows, she nucking futs as it is.\

-yes, but that would just cause more problems in the children of today because marriage isn't seen the same as it was back then. The chances of a couple being married young, 14 and 15 and actually staying together in this day and age is slim. Chances are, by 18-23, they will have questioned that decision intensely and most will have found that they didn't know what they were doing or getting into, weren't old enough to make an informed and responsible decision.

Again, we don't typically allow them to get into those situations until they're older and more mentally mature, yet we still have the problem of marriages not lasting. Doesn't say much for age being an indication of mental maturity, does it?