When Testosterone Attacks

viscousmemories · #1 03-10-2012, 05:26 PM

So here's a thing that happened.

For the past couple years at my job I was teamed up with a woman who was a couple pay-grades beneath me and significantly less skilled. Things were not going great between us, and before Christmas our management solved the problem by promoting her into a different role. Fast forward a couple months and I have a new co-worker. This time someone at my own pay-grade with whom I'm expected to divide my responsibilities equally. She doesn't have a lot of experience with the stuff we're doing but she is smart, motivated and learns very quickly. I feel really good about this.

Over the past couple month we have been trying really hard to get her "ramped up" (as our director likes to say) by having her attend as much training as possible and basically shadow me everywhere when she isn't in training so I can impart as much knowledge as possible about the mechanics of our very complex job. The problem is we keep getting interrupted throughout the day by a particular co-worker who feels compelled to flirt socialize with my new colleague every chance he gets. Never mind that he is >25 yrs. her senior. Never mind that they are both married with children. Never mind that they are both professionals employed by a corporation that has zero-tolerance for sexual harassment. Never mind that I am sitting right there every time this occurs. As far as I can tell he genuinely believes the only reason we hired her is for his amusement.

Now y'all know I'm not a prude and I don't cling to convention. If an older man wants to flirt with a much younger woman and she tolerates (or even appreciates) it, more power to them. For most of her adult life she has been in IT, both in law enforcement and in the military. There is absolutely no doubt that she fully understands and (unfortunately) accepts what comes from being a very attractive woman in very male-dominated industries. She's no withering flower and she can and does give as good as she gets.

Still, there comes a time when flirtation crosses the line. But she's a grown woman so short of sharing my opinion of the behavior I will leave it to her to determine how to respond when that happens. Then there comes a time when the constant interruptions become more than a trivial disruption to our work, and I end up having a conversation with my director about it. Then there comes a time (the next day actually) when macho man randy co-worker calls my colleague to the training room to "help him with something" when in fact his only purpose is to show her off to his students. Then I end up having yet another conversation with my director, which this time results in her requesting that I start documenting what is going on.

So this whole thing has been really bugging me over the past week for several reasons. On the one hand it clearly sucks that she feels obligated to smile and play along when guys treat her like (to use her words) "[someone with] boobs and orifices". On the other hand it sucks even more when she has to tolerate that at work. On yet another hand it sucks further when it interferes with my ability to be effective at work. On my fourth hand it sucks because frankly flirting is fun but I don't get to play because I'm a grown-up. On my fifth hand it sucks because this thing is probably going to get ugly and she might end up hating me and/or the job even more than if I had done nothing.

Anyway, yeah it just sucks.

beyelzu · #2 03-10-2012, 05:46 PM

That does sound shitty, have you talked to the coworker about it?

lisarea · #3 03-10-2012, 05:48 PM

As much as I loathe that white knighting is necessary sometimes in the real world, it really really is.

Women working in extremely male-dominated fields are walking on eggshells all the damned time, even at companies that have clear harassment policies and such. The effect can be cumulative, too. If you're the only woman in a group of a couple dozen men or so, even minor little intrusions and presumptions start to add up. If even half the men in the group do something mildly inappropriate once a week or so, it can still add up to something that literally happens to her every day. It absolutely can taint your overall experience in a workplace.

Complicating this, if your paycheck depends on it, you do have to be careful not to come across as a complainer. Each transgressor, I'll call them, has maybe only behaved inappropriately a few times, so it comes across, from their perspective, as her making a big deal out of nothing. It is very very easy to get painted as a whiner who is just looking for something to be offended by.

And, in light of this, it actually can be enormously helpful to have a male coworker come forward and bring it up independently.

You should probably talk to her first, of course, and tell her you've noticed and want to help; and ask if it's OK. Because it's also possible that she's just acclimated herself and has chosen to tolerate the behaviors rather than making waves. And that really has to be her choice to make.

Women tolerate a whole bunch of shit on a regular basis, especially in a workplace like that, that most men have no clue about at all; so for her, this really might not be a hill she wants to die on. So I'd recommend you offer her your help, and let her decide whether she wants it. It's possible she might even prefer that it was addressed as a "HOO BOY, the management meanies said we're talking too much, creepy old man. Isn't that silly? Oh, well. Now we have to stop flirting all the time!"

Ensign Steve · #4 03-10-2012, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

If you're the only woman in a group of a couple dozen men or so, even minor little intrusions and presumptions start to add up. If even half the men in the group do something mildly inappropriate once a week or so, it can still add up to something that literally happens to her every day. It absolutely can taint your overall experience in a workplace.

...

Each transgressor, I'll call them, has maybe only behaved inappropriately a few times, so it comes across, from their perspective, as her making a big deal out of nothing. It is very very easy to get painted as a whiner who is just looking for something to be offended by.

OMG, this. Thanks again for putting into words the stuff I know but don't know how to put into words. It's like trying to explain the elevator incident or any singular off-hand remark. It's like, no, it's not the one incident that's the issue. It's the additive effect of having to deal with this shit, like, constantly.

viscousmemories · #5 03-10-2012, 06:04 PM

Bey, my director suggested I should make it clear to him (either by pulling him aside or otherwise) that he was being disruptive, so I did do that. I didn't pull him aside, but I started saying things like "sorry but this isn't social time, we have work to do" when he popped in to visit. But you should know this guy is also 20 yrs. my senior, he's been in this job a lot longer than me (I've worked with for >5yrs), and he's always been a dbag, so I'm realistic about how likely he is to respect my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

It's possible she might even prefer that it was addressed as a "HOO BOY, the management meanies said we're talking too much, creepy old man. Isn't that silly? Oh, well. Now we have to stop flirting all the time!"

Funny you should mention that. A couple weeks ago (which was a few days after she started) she had her first interaction with major dbag, after which I warned her "yeah, that's our resident dirty old man." A few days later she says to him, "so I hear your the resident dirty old man" and I say, "no, no. we say that ABOUT him, not TO him."

lisarea · #6 03-10-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Funny you should mention that. A couple weeks ago (which was a few days after she started) she had her first interaction with major dbag, after which I warned her "yeah, that's our resident dirty old man." A few days later she says to him, "so I hear your the resident dirty old man" and I say, "no, no. we say that ABOUT him, not TO him."

Yowch. That changes things a little.

If your workplace has someone that is already designated as the "dirty old man," it could be interpreted as them knowingly fostering a hostile workplace environment. It sounds as though he's not just having a problem interacting appropriately with her, but with women in general.

If that's the case, it really isn't just her issue to deal with or not, but a workplace wide one that is entirely on him, and it should be addressed as such. You are completely justified in documenting the scope of the problem for HR so they can address it with him.

ZEZOZE · #7 03-10-2012, 06:04 PM

if it truly interferes with your work then you should say something to that man. you should tell him he's interfering. if he persists then you take it from there.

do not be a white knight. that's bad advice, but not surprising.

she's a human as strong as you. let her sort out any sexual issues and you just concentrate on your work.

Ari · #8 03-10-2012, 06:12 PM

At the rate of escalation this was possibly going to get ugly no matter what. At least it will get ugly on your terms. This wasn't just small comments in passing but has started to affect your work as well. While you should talk to her about it, this isn't you jumping in to save the day but trying to get your own work done without testosterone douchebag in the way.

viscousmemories · #9 03-10-2012, 06:15 PM

Yes, she is a human. However she's also a pay grade B (for purposes of this analogy) with 3 weeks on the job and in a support role and Johnny Horndog is a pay grade C with >10 yrs on the job in a trainer role. Although it's true that they report to the same manager and she is in no way subordinate to him, it's likely that she does not yet fully appreciate that.

ZEZOZE · #10 03-10-2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

Yes, she is a human. However she's also a pay grade B (for purposes of this analogy) with 3 weeks on the job and in a support role and Johnny Horndog is a pay grade C with >10 yrs on the job in a trainer role. Although it's true that they report to the same manager and she is in no way subordinate to him, it's likely that she does not yet fully appreciate that.

why don't you ask her if he's an annoyance and then explain that it's annoying to you. is she a child that doesn't understand that you have work to do? stop treating her like a victim.

viscousmemories · #11 03-10-2012, 06:18 PM

That's one of the many things I was thinking, Ari. This instructor has been in hot water before (recently) because a student in his class reported that the instructor had been overtly flirting with a female student in the class. If one of the students in this recent class complained about the show-and-tell and it came out that I knew about it and said nothing...

viscousmemories · #12 03-10-2012, 06:31 PM

Some issues are nuanced and can't be solved with one-liners, you wouldn't understand.

ZEZOZE · #13 03-10-2012, 06:38 PM

i think i completely understand.

how do you view your coworker? do you see her as needing your help? you already said she seems like a person that could stick up for herself.

the man is interfering with YOUR work, no? so say something to him and maybe explain it to her and see what happens.

viscousmemories · #14 03-10-2012, 06:51 PM

I have explained my concerns to her. We've worked side-by-side for several weeks so we've obviously had a lot of discussions that I haven't transcribed here. If I got the sense that she was completely comfortable with the situation and not at all imposed upon I would be much less concerned, but that isn't the case. When I bring it up she usually offers some half-hearted defense of his behavior along the lines of "boys will be boys" or even "latinos will be latinos", without actually saying that she doesn't mind. What she has said repeatedly is that she's used to it, she can handle it, she has had worse, etc. Nothing about it not bothering her.

Ensign Steve · #15 03-10-2012, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by viscousmemories

I have explained my concerns to her.

Cool, I was going to suggest at least talking to her. You may or may not believe how comforting it is to just have an ally in this situation, even if nothing else gets done about it. In summer school, there was this obnoxious kid in my class that was constantly making sexist jokes and I chose to ignore him because he wasn't worth my energy. But then I had a lab partner who would groan under his breath and roll his eyes in my direction every time and it made me feel better knowing that even though I was the only woman, there was still someone else in the room who understood how shitty this kid was.

Also, because, yeah, pretending it doesn't exist really does contribue to an already hostile environment, and you probably don't want to be on that side of things for both legal and moral reasons.

ZEZOZE · #16 03-10-2012, 06:55 PM

seems it bothers you more than it bothers her.

anyhow...if she asked me to say something i would, especially since you've already discussed it. if the man is bothering you, you should say something to the man. if it doesn't stop then maybe take it further.

my advice. i'm sure you won't take it, but i'm not trying to be argumentative for argument sake.

good luck!

viscousmemories · #17 03-10-2012, 07:00 PM

No, believe it or not I understand where you're coming from. My director made a similar point in initially encouraging me to address it exclusively from the perspective of how it is impacting my work. And honestly my selfish interests are a major concern for me. I need the help and I think she's going to work out great, so the last thing I want/need is for her to feel uncomfortable coming to (or staying at) work. Like I said there are a lot of factors.

Qingdai · #18 03-10-2012, 07:36 PM

Document, document, document, it can be hard for a manager to know how much a dbag is impeding the working environment.
It can also save you ass if things go sideways. It's less likely to be a he/she said thing.

viscousmemories · #19 03-10-2012, 07:40 PM

During one conversation she said "...that's just guys. Every time they interact with someone who has boobs and orifices that's all they can think about". To which I replied, "hey I'm a big fan of boobs and orifices myself, but that doesn't mean I can't and won't treat you like a co-worker and human being." She got a big laugh out of me saying "boobs and orifices" but then assured me that I'm her favorite--presumably because of how i relate to her.

seebs · #20 03-10-2012, 08:09 PM

Yeah, treat her like people. Bitches love being treated like people. :pimpin:

[note: I just *assumed* that ;pimpin; would be a smiley here.]

viscousmemories · #21 03-10-2012, 08:34 PM

The whole experience of having a beautiful co-worker has been pretty eye-opening for me. Never mind the overtly obnoxious instructor. I get the "you lucky dog" looks, winks and comments from other guys all the time, and lots of attention that I didn't get before. For example! The other day I went to one of the labs to ask if anyone had seen... let's say Bob. In times past, the 4-5 guys in the room would all look up when I walked in, then they would all look away. Sometimes even the person who weakly answered my query wouldn't look back to do so. So the other day I go there with my new co-worker and all five guys turn to look and keep looking the whole time I'm there, and several of them postulate answers to my query. It was unusual enough that I noticed, and it wasn't until we were walking away that I realized it was because my co-worker was with me. It's a very weird thing to see people I've passed in the hall for years who usually didn't even say hello suddenly want to smile and wink, or even stop and chat.

lisarea · #22 03-10-2012, 08:35 PM

OMG, [thanks] for the [thanks].

I feel like I've been trying to explain this to people forever, and nobody has ever gotten what I'm talking about; so it really is a big deal to me to get some confirmation that I'm not just talking gobbedly gook.

:hug:

Clutch Munny · #23 03-10-2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisarea

I feel like I've been trying to explain this to people forever, and nobody has ever gotten what I'm talking about

I find that pretty depressing.

ZEZOZE · #24 03-10-2012, 09:23 PM

geez...work in my biz- i'm surrounded by beautiful people. maybe that's why we all know what to do.

i'd be willing to wager that the animal part of you is actually annoyed that another man would have the balls to come up and chat up your workmate, even if it is wrong. you see she's beautiful. you've talked of the perks that come with being associated with that. that man is making a mockery of your imagination! lol.

we're all fucking animals and rather than try to deny that fact with laws and rules, we should just rule over our animal and get to know ourselves a little better.

all i see is a thread that does nothing but further the belief that women are weaker than men, a belief i do not share. i think they are much more powerful...even when they were in the kitchen.

Clutch Munny · #25 03-10-2012, 09:26 PM

Anyhoo. As a senior workplace dude, I don't worry about white knighting per se*, because it cross-classifies paternalism, which I think is the thing actually worth worrying about.

Whether at work or in social circles (say, on sports teams, or among parents when the kids are on sports teams, or in political party meetings, at school board, etc) there's actually a fair number of reasons I think you have to stick up for other people in the interests of basic decency, when you're a powerful enfranchised white dude. Society's gone to all this trouble to make me loud, confident and wrong -- might as well put it to good use!

YMMV, but the general shape of my approach is that of conveying explicitly to someone, or to an entire social context, that you aren't afraid to have shit get reeeeal awkward if they are sexist/racist/ageist/ableist/smurf. Drop a clanger. Say something that leaves people uncertain whether to laugh at a funny joke or whether a fight is about to happen. To senior dbag when some other dudes (but not female target colleague S) are around: "Whoa, dude, how much Bounce would S have to use in the dryer before you stopped clinging to her clothes?" Or "Ya know, if you're that desperate, you could just stash a porn mag in the men's room for yourself, rather than coming around to get an eyeful of S five times a day. Because at least dots printed on a page wouldn't be creeped out." Or whatever.

And of course, Smile While.

Embarrassing someone for that kind of thing will have them walking on eggshells for a good long while, in my experience (even if they whine and play victim about it). But, like lisarea says, somebody's gotta walk on eggshells with a dbag in the house. Might as well be the dbag!

Of course things are more complicated if you are formally documenting matters for eventual resolution at a higher admin level. In that case you might want to STFU rather than insert yourself into the play. Or, you could drop a clanger, but document your own remarks in your reports as "Tried to find unambiguous but socially acceptable ways of pointing out the problem to DB, noting both coworkers' discomfort with the personal/sexualized character of his attention to S, and the disruptive effects of attentions on my work and S's work."

*As an action-guiding worry, I mean, rather than worrying about the general social fact that among the people you sometimes have to stick up for are women and the reason you have to do it is because misogyny in some form or other is always coming around.