How and where do you draw the line?

[seebs]

Something I've gradually become aware of over the years is that almost everyone has subtle disagreements on where to draw "the line" on what kinds of behavior are subject to spousal approval, and what aren't. Obviously, different marriages have different rules, but even if you presume monogamy or exclusivity of some sort... People disagree widely.

I know a number of people who feel that it is "improper" for a man to have female friends. I know people who think it's okay to be in a hot tub nude with other women, as long as you're not making it into a sexual thing.

So... I'm curious. Where do you draw the line? Why there? Why not somewhere else?

To clarify, the question is not "what would your spouse complain about", but where you would personally draw the line. Hmm. Actually, the other question may be interesting, too. My wife and I reached the rule early on that we both have boundaries, and that our behavior is governed by the union of those boundaries. So, for instance, I have a very strong Minnesotan modesty taboo, and she tends to respect that when dealing with others, not because it's how she thinks about bodies, but because it's how I think about them. And so on.

But... What counts as what? What's okay flirting? What's obviously cheating? Is it a question of specific physical actions or regions, or is it a question of intent, or what?

I'm not entirely sure I have clear answers to these questions, myself. There are some sets of rules I'm quite clearly rejecting. I don't think that "being friends with other women" is cheating. I think that oral sex clearly would be, even though it's not "really" intercourse. But... It's pretty easy to find an ill-defined grey area where I don't know exactly what I think of things. My default habit is to assert that, if I'm not clear on whether or not something's okay, it's probably not okay.

But... An interesting topic. It turns out that many people never realize how different their perspectives on this issue are.

[JoeP]

Good question, damn good one. Not only do I agree that there are unsuspected differences between people who otherwise know each other well, but I also think a lot of us are conflicted or confused internally. OK, maybe just me. Anyway, I thought for a while about whether to reply.

As well as "what are the rules?" you introduce the question of "who makes the rules?" You can't separate out "what would your spouse complain about" - except from "what would the rest of your community complain about". What is right - what the best rules are - depends very much on the spouse. Intent plays a big part, and trust plays another big part, and openness the rest. If your intent is pure and your wife trusts you and you're open about what you do and feel, then you can jump into the sauna, stay overnight in the guest bedroom, or whatever. Break any one of these and you have an argument on your hands.

What I mean about being conflicted is that many of us desire friendships even where there's some attraction - and we feel angry that the spouse (somewhat fairly) doesn't trust the way our intentions may evolve (temptation) - and so to secrecy. (Secrets aren't necessarily bad. You need to test what revealing the secret would imply: hurt to the spouse?)

I think there's a source of cultural rules that aims to go beyond any couple's understanding, or lack thereof. The muslim practices of chadors/burqas etc are based on the assumption that men will always be tempted and it's the woman's fault. Some other cultural rules, like not having female friends, or not being in a closed room with a female business contact, go on the same assumption but make it the man's responsibility.

These cultural things are about preserving marriage (and perhaps the virginity of women) in the face of omnipresent threats. Let's think about whether that's the right thing to do, and whether these "lines" are the best way to go about it.

joe

[dave_a]

In theory the wife and I have no rules regarding this. We are a monogamous couple and I do not have any female friends that I associate with without my wife nor does she have any male friends. Most of our friends are married couples so this isn't a big thing.

We don't seem to need any rules because we both more or less understand what is acceptable in our relationship and don't feel particularly burdened or limited by it.

To me the main issues are trust and temptation. I don't really care about sex so much as I do about relationship fidelity and stability. If she told me she had a fling with somebody I would feel hurt that it happened behind my back only because of the violation of trust, not because of the sex.

So, the sex really isn't a big deal for either of us, just the trust. If, for example, we were with a couple who wanted to swap or have group style sex and we were interested it would be no problem for either of us as far as jealousy or feelings of betrayal were concerned.

The other part of it is temptation. My wife trusts me to not have sex with others and I don't. At the same time if I knew a female was interested in me sexually and invited me out for a friendly date I would turn her down. It's a temptation thing. Get me in front of an attractive woman who is coming on to me, particularly if there is alcohol in the mix and things could happen. So, I avoid those situations and expect her to do the same.

Basically it works. No real rules, just a mutual expectation that we know our limits with regards to temptation and avoid unnecessary temptations and communicate with each other.

There have been times when my wife had a major attraction to another man and she told me about it. That usually leads to some really good sex for the two of us. It's OK with me if we are roleplaying that she is getting it on with another guy as long as I am the one reaping the benefits of her extraordinary lust

[seebs]

Something I have been told is that, statistically, men mostly care about physical boundaries ("did X happen or not"), and women about emotional boundaries ("do you like her more than me?"). Sure enough, my wife is entirely concerned with physical boundaries, and I'm mostly concerned with emotional ones. (By any psychological standard we can find, she's male, and I'm androgynous leaning towards female.)

It gets more complicated when you consider other points of view. What is acceptable behavior from me towards a married person, for instance? (Once again, this is separate from the question of whether they have boundaries they'd like me to observe.)

The entire question of what is or isn't appropriate sexual behavior turns out to be very complicated. A useful word I picked up relating to this is "squick". For those who haven't seen it, "squick" refers to revulsion, but carefully retracts any moral judgment. It's not saying X is moral, or X is immeral; just X disgusts me. This is a very useful word to use if you know people who are into kinky stuff that you aren't into...

But, for instance... Someone I know once told me she fantasized about me while masturbating. She is Not My Type. We are not involved, and haven't been, and probably never will be. This squicks me something fierce. I have no idea what the moral judgment, if any, should be. I am vaguely inclined to feel that it's rude to fantasize about someone without permission, but I'm not sure whether there's any moral rule to be had there.

I think the underlying moral rule I apply to marriage is that it becomes wrong to do things which would squick your partner, even if there's no other reason for them to be wrong. So, for instance... I don't have any moral objections to nudity, I just have my Minnesotan modesty, but it would squick me for Jesse to be naked in a hot tub with other people, so she doesn't do that now, because it would be mean to me.

Hmm. A fascinating topic, full of complicated little exceptions and rules and patterns.

[WinAce]

Originally Posted by seebs

Someone I know once told me she fantasized about me while...

Telling that to someone you don't know feels the same way is creepy. I'd only allude to it.

That "nothing that disgusts your partner" rule of thumb is excellent, indicates great respect for your significant other, and is a recipe for success. Hope you don't mind that I ripped it off before even reading this thread.

[dave_a]

I think the squick factor pretty well sums it up. The line between acceptable and not varies from person to person and may change over time for a couple.

As long as the differences between 2 people's squick factors isn't too different it shouldn't be a problem.

[AspenMama]

The older I get, the less reason I see for sex to be limited between two people. And really, what I consider cheating is falling in love with someone else. I'm in a relationship now, and as it was important to him-- in fact a make or break deal that we be exclusive, I agreed to that early on and I've found it easy to stick to that agreement. But, I don't ever think it should simply be assumed that when you are in a relationship, that both will be exclusive-- it should be discussed and agreed upon explicitly. Since he drew this line, I also expect him to adhere to that-- if not all bets are off. I found out what my flirting limits are in real life-- no excessive touching or butt pinching-- and have realized a bit of discomfort when online flirting becomes too sexual because of my agreement. Ultimately it boils down to whatever two consenting adults want to agree upon and stick to-- I think is fine.

[Nil Desperandum]

The only way I could ever "cheat", where the "line gets crossed", is if I have sexual intercourse with another female, without my significant other present. We have discussed this topic off and on since we met, and it is a great thing that we have, because we understand and trust each other deeply because of this.

Sexually concerned... (ok, I rethought this), she cannot really cheat on me. She is completely free to do what she wants. However, I know that if she is sexually invovled with someone else, she WANTS me to be there. She was at a party and the other hot girl that was there "invited her upstairs." I was at home catching up on sleep (tearing my hair out, actually, but that is another story). She didn't go through with it, because "we are a package deal." She's very attractive, very sexually confident, and a flirt. These things can be dangerous, but I trust Jamie.

I still have jealous, irrational moments of "Did she do something? Can I trust her?" but I just quelch those fears and tell myself there is no rational reason to believe it. Not as far as sex is concerned.

I would not understand, however, if she did sleep with another man, why she would do so without me being present. From her mouth came the words that she would not, so I hold her to that because she needs to be a woman of her word, not because I demand her limited sexual behaviors. And if she DID have sex with a guy, it would probably be premeditated with my consent (I want it happen!!!), and that he doesn't have any STDs and she won't get pregnant.

Those are my concerns.

Emotionally, I do not chain her either. I have my crushes, and so does she. Keep in mind, she is bisexual, so I do feel a tad threatened by females, but not that bad. I'm getting over it, but it hasn't even been a year that I've had experience dating/loving a bisexual female, so that is just something that I will learn over time.

She may not be my spouse, and she MAY BE one day (if I ever re-marry); however, our boundaries are clearly defined, and as far as emotions go, there is no possibility of "cheating." You feel how you feel, and to suppress these feelings is just as hostile to one's health as it is to repress one's own sexual desires.

I may be extremely vocal about both of my feelings, but I am vocal about everything. What she keeps to herself, she keeps to herself, but she is slowly learning that strong communication is what builds a relationship, not shelled-up, defense mechanism based quietude.

Hope that clears it up.

Chris

[LadyShea]

I just think it all comes down to a contract between the two people. "I don't mind you flirting, but I do mind you X, Y, Z"...sounds cold and clinical, but if you don't lay all the rules down then someone can break one completely inadvertantly, simply because they don't share the same boundries. Each has to KNOW what the other's boundries are...communication is always key.

And I can't use your seemingly useful word, seebs, because it also has an archaic meaning of the most vile sexual act I have ever heard of.

I am vaguely inclined to feel that it's rude to fantasize about someone without permission

I don't know about THAT, but I do think her sharing this tidbit with you was...odd at the very least. I am inclined to think it was an overt come on.

[Nil Desperandum]

I certainly wouldn't mind hearing someone masturbates while fantasizing about me giving them some pleasure.

Only happened once where it caught me off guard, and I was on the PHONE at the time she did it...
Holy Shmoking Jeebuz.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

And I can't use your seemingly useful word, seebs, because it also has an archaic meaning of the most vile sexual act I have ever heard of.

I believe the word you're looking for is "etymology".

I don't know about THAT, but I do think her sharing this tidbit with you was...odd at the very least. I am inclined to think it was an overt come on.

I have no idea. I've never asked, and I really don't want to know.

Circumstances matter a lot, I think. It gets weird. As a general rule, I don't worry about it; there are few enough people I would ever think about sexually that the question almost never comes up. On the other hand, when it does, it's a weird question.

For instance, my wife and a couple of her friends sell art at anime conventions. We road trip together. We tend to all pile onto a king-size bed. Only, my wife and one of the artists are both very very inclined to social claustrophobia, and don't like being touched... Leaving me in bed with a 20-year-old girl. Who is not my wife. Apparently, this is not a problem. It might become one, but so far, everyone seems happy. I think that "happy" would turn rapidly into "decapitation" if I tried kissing the girl, though.

I dunno. I'm sorta looking forward to the next con trip, to see how gradual changes in other things affect that boundary. For instance, that girl and my wife and I spend a lot of time playing D&D or similar games on a chat program now; at this point, we're a lot closer emotionally than we were before. I don't know how much, or whether, this will change things. I'm sorta curious, actually; one of my curses is a tendency to flirt with boundaries just because I want to know what happens.

[LadyXoc]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I just think it all comes down to a contract between the two people. "I don't mind you flirting, but I do mind you X, Y, Z"...sounds cold and clinical, but if you don't lay all the rules down then someone can break one completely inadvertantly, simply because they don't share the same boundries. Each has to KNOW what the other's boundries are...communication is always key.

I'm just going to steal this, because it sums up my feelings pretty well, and I'm too lazy to write my own. I'll add that the boundaries have been different in each of my own relationships, because every relationship gets its own "contract," so to speak. What I tend to draw the line at is not so much physical this or that, but disrespect for my feelings or my person.

[Bella]

So...what happens if you and your partner can't come to a consensus?

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Bree

So...what happens if you and your partner can't come to a consensus?

So far, our meta-consensus has been that "if it squicks you, the other person doesn't do it, even if they might not feel the same way".

For instance, for a while, the "graphic and hardcore gay sex in rp" thing squicked me, so Rah and Jesse stopped doing it, and switched to "fade to black". They didn't see any particular reason for it to bug me, but they don't need to understand my motives, just respect my space. (Since then, ironically, they have both come to see what bugged me about it, while I've decided it doesn't bug me anymore. So now they're allowed to, but they don't do it as much.)

The only time it's a real problem is when you can't correctly communicate the boundary; Jesse and I had some trouble with that, because I'm more girlish than she is, so emotional state matters to me, but she's more typically guyish, and has a very hard time with any rule that doesn't involve "X happens" and "X does not happen" criteria.

[Farren]

Originally Posted by seebs

I believe the word you're looking for is "etymology".

The etymology of squicking

[Beth]

So far, our meta-consensus has been that "if it squicks you, the other person doesn't do it, even if they might not feel the same way".

My husband gets upset that I have male friends, heck, he even gets upset when I speak to my daughter's friend's father. He gets upset with me that I enjoy conversing with him, when we do talk, (maybe once a week) and questions the reason why I talk to him-the reason is to see if he can be trusted around my children...duh. My husband gets upset that I speak with men online and have a good male friend (to whom he knows I speak). But then, my husband gets upset that I speak with women too. He is aware that I sometimes post more flirtatious things, I now have made a point not to post anything that could get me in trouble with him because he sometimes does read what I write, if he requests to, even my gripes about him.

Well, it upsets him, all this, he implies that it is improper that his wife has male friends or can shoot the breeze with guys. The thing is, he has very very close female friends. Some even call to talk to him for ages. He visits them, hangs out with them, but I do not have the luxury or freedom. He also flirts. He is a natural charmer, although he rarely admits it until I point out that he is a very charming man when he wants to be and get easily charm women that would seem more difficult to flatter.

His justification is that "men will fuck anything" and because of that he knows he cannot trust a man with me. Now, I think he does not realize that this should cause me to distrust him, although I do not, he just think this is a reason why I should not be alone or bond with a man other than himself.

Because of this, I ignore his wishes, even if it does upset him or squick him. His friendships with females gives me the freedom to speak openly with men. This is one case where he has to get over his jealousy and his problem. I include this in this topic because my friendships and comradery with males is seen as infidelity or borderline behavior. But these same people also have close relationships with the opposite sex. So, I think because it is something my husband states cannot be, I am seen as cheating. I refuse to accept that.

My husband would feel threatened at if I looked at porn alone, but I have caught him online looking at it and thought nothing of it (he is not too into porn, either). He even used to be upset if I read a smutty book.

Now, I am sure this could get into a bashing thread, I do not want that. He is realy a good person with some view points that seem to be accepted in a more sexist South. But my point is, just because it does squick or upset someone, it does not mean that it is the line to draw. Some people have unreasonable double standards.


Oh, and the whole squick thing, from what I understand, it is some hoax-type thing first started as a joke on Usenet.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Beth

unreasonable double standards

You said it. That's a fair summary of your post

Sadly this is not uncommon. Any argument along the lines of "apply the same standards to me as I do to you", in an environment of suspicion, gets interpreted as "you're looking for my approval to do something I'm suspicious of, and is therefore wrong."

[SharonDee]

Originally Posted by Beth

Because of this, I ignore his wishes, even if it does upset him or squick him. His friendships with females gives me the freedom to speak openly with men. This is one case where he has to get over his jealousy and his problem.

[You had me worried for a minute there.]

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Beth

His justification is that "men will fuck anything" and because of that he knows he cannot trust a man with me.

Wow, that's FLATTERING!

*snerk*

I guess... What's it matter whether he can trust the guy? Isn't it you he should be trusting or not trusting?

Because of this, I ignore his wishes, even if it does upset him or squick him. His friendships with females gives me the freedom to speak openly with men. This is one case where he has to get over his jealousy and his problem. I include this in this topic because my friendships and comradery with males is seen as infidelity or borderline behavior. But these same people also have close relationships with the opposite sex. So, I think because it is something my husband states cannot be, I am seen as cheating. I refuse to accept that.

Yeah. I think I'd agree with you on that.

Now, I am sure this could get into a bashing thread, I do not want that. He is realy a good person with some view points that seem to be accepted in a more sexist South. But my point is, just because it does squick or upset someone, it does not mean that it is the line to draw. Some people have unreasonable double standards.

Agreed. I think the rule we use presupposes a reasonable good-faith effort not to impose arbitrary restrictions. And certainly, so far as I can tell, we're both pretty reasonable most of the time.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by seebs

I guess... What's it matter whether he can trust the guy? Isn't it you he should be trusting or not trusting?

There's something very widespread behind this. In a lot of cases of affairs and break-ups, the dumped partner blames the third party not their (ex-)partner. At least emotionally. The spurned wife hates the "other woman": why doesn't she reserve her hatred for her cheating husband?

My theory is that, psychologically, if your emotions matched the rational answer, that would pretty much destroy the basis of the relationship. So we're wired to forgive and try to get our partner back. (On the other hand, we're obviously not wired to be open and fair. All fairness is out when winning and holding onto your man or controlling your woman (and I use the genders a bit arbitrarily there).)

[seebs]

An interesting point. My wife dumped a friend once for refusing to stop hitting on her; if she hadn't dumped this friend, she would probably have been pretty tempted... But at the same time, I don't think the friend can be held blameless, given that she kept hitting on Jesse long after being told to drop it.

I suspect there's some variance between people on these issues. An active effort to seduce someone can be hard to resist, and many people have poor control; I'd think there'd be a difference between a calculated affair and a much less calculated screw. In the latter case, the spouse might well be more angry at the seducer than the seducee... But of course, this assumes that you know which is which.

[Dingfod]

seebs, like they say, it takes two to tango. A person cannot be seduced if they don't want to be seduced. There are no innocents involved in most sexual affairs.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by warrenly

seebs, like they say, it takes two to tango. A person cannot be seduced if they don't want to be seduced. There are no innocents involved in most sexual affairs.

I think it depends. A lot of people have poor self-control, and are easily overwhelmed... Especially comparatively naive people.

What a person "wants" is often complicated and tangled. I would agree that neither party is ever entirely innocent, but you can have a lot of effect on peoples' behavior if you're good at manipulation.

[JoeP]

I'm with warren on this (having an affair - sorry warren, I just can't keep it a secret any more). Seebs, sure there's some difference between actively seducing and being seduced by someone else, but a spouse seduced "against their will" is not innocent. I don't think there's any logic in being more angry at the third-party seducer.

Warren says: "A person cannot be seduced if they don't want to be seduced." A person can be attracted despite not wanting to be, but if they don't actively, postively want to go further they won't. They'll do something to remove the attraction if necessary, like your wife did.

[seebs]

Over the long term, I agree. Over the short term, I don't; hormones can swamp "better judgment", and I don't think that necessarily reflects "what you want" in any meaningful sense. But it's an interesting question; I think circumstances matter.