Go Back   Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 11-10-2011, 10:56 PM
Iacchus's Avatar
Iacchus Iacchus is offline
Flipper 11/11
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCXXXVI
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post


Babby! ...
What's that, Pedobear?
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:07 PM
Iacchus's Avatar
Iacchus Iacchus is offline
Flipper 11/11
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCXXXVI
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Or know who these people are...
I think most folks in the States or, at least anyone who knows anything, knows who they are. :giggle:
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:19 PM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

livius drusus Adam (Today), ChuckF (Today), Demimonde (Today), Nullifidian (Today), Pan Narrans (Today), Sock Puppet (Today), specious_reasons (Today), Watser? (Today)

Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:26 PM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMDCCCLX
Images: 2
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
I've seen the headlines a few times over the last day or so and I've always just gone, meh. Why? Because it's always couched in terms of the tragedy of this Joe Pa guy leaving Penn State, not the fact that he's leaving because he allowed a paedophile to rape boys. Fucking reporters.
Yeah there are a few submerged injustice narratives that are really weird. They are most visible when Penn State students rallied at Paterno's house one night, and then rioted after he was fired. But they're also in some of the media coverage.

One is basically "But he didn't do anything wrong!" If they stopped at just not doing anything, then I would agree, but yeah, he did kind of do something wrong with the whole covering up child rape.

Then it is like, well, he has been the football coach for a really long time. And?

Or, he is old. So's the Pope.

Or, he won a whole lot of football games, and he is legendary. I guess that makes it ok.

And while these kind of sentiments are mostly expressed in interviews with fans, on Facebook, and mouthbreathing shitposters like thedoc, they occasionally seep into media coverage too. This is the kind of story I mean.
Quote:
The longtime coach, the winningest in major college football, was ousted at the end of day that began with his announcement to retire at end of the season, his 46th.

It was not to be.

...

Standing outside of his home late Thursday with his wife, Paterno responded to crowds of students chanting "please don't go" by saying: "You guys are great, all of you. Hey look, get a good night's sleep, study. You still have things to do."

...

A source close to former Penn State Football Coach Joe Paterno tells CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian that the Paterno family is shocked and outraged over the university's handling of the firing.

The source claims a university employee hand-delivered a letter about the firing to the family home a mere 15 minutes prior to the press conference. According to the source, the reason for the letter was that the university employee said the board was unable to locate Paterno during the day.

"You give your life to this place and that's how you're treated," the source said.

...

The ouster of the man affectionately known as "JoePa" brings to an end one of the most storied coaching careers — not just in college football but in all of sports. Paterno has 409 victories — a record for major college football — won two national titles and guided five teams to unbeaten, untied seasons. He reached 300 wins faster than any other coach.
The whole Paterno-as-real-victim thing occupies most of the story, and we don't even get to the substance of the whole child sex abuse thing until the seventeenth - yes, seventeenth - paragraph:
Quote:
Paterno has come under harsh criticism — including from within the community known as Happy Valley — for not taking more action in 2002 after then-graduate assistant and current assistant coach Mike McQueary came to him and reported seeing Sandusky in the Penn State showers with a young boy. Paterno notified the athletic director, Tim Curley, and a vice president, Gary Schultz.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (11-11-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Crumb (11-11-2011), Deadlokd (11-11-2011), Demimonde (11-11-2011), Janet (11-17-2011), livius drusus (11-10-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), Sock Puppet (11-11-2011), Stephen Maturin (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011)
  #30  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:30 PM
ChuckF's Avatar
ChuckF ChuckF is offline
liar in wolf's clothing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Frequently about
Posts: XVMMMDCCCLX
Images: 2
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
livius drusus Adam (Today), ChuckF (Today), Demimonde (Today), Nullifidian (Today), Pan Narrans (Today), Sock Puppet (Today), specious_reasons (Today), Watser? (Today)
Now I see how you're the real victim here. :sadnod:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Adam (11-11-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Deadlokd (11-11-2011), Kael (11-11-2011), livius drusus (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), Sock Puppet (11-11-2011), Stormlight (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011)
  #31  
Old 11-10-2011, 11:34 PM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullshit article
Paterno has come under harsh criticism — including from within the community known as Happy Valley — for not taking more action in 2002 after then-graduate assistant and current assistant coach Mike McQueary came to him and reported seeing Sandusky in the Penn State showers with a young boy. Paterno notified the athletic director, Tim Curley, and a vice president, Gary Schultz.
In the showers with a young boy. Let's go to the grand jury report, shall we?

Quote:
As the graduate assistant [McQueary] entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
ChuckF (11-10-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Deadlokd (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011)
  #32  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:57 AM
Deadlokd's Avatar
Deadlokd Deadlokd is offline
Not as smart as Adam
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensland
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCXXIX
Images: 21
Default Re: the end of an era.

Jesus Christ
__________________
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:31 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
Now I see how you're the real victim here.

I'm sure you will see what you want to see.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:31 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
Jesus Christ

Not really a victim.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:48 AM
Deadlokd's Avatar
Deadlokd Deadlokd is offline
Not as smart as Adam
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensland
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCXXIX
Images: 21
Default Re: the end of an era.

What about the ten year old boy? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than Joe Pa? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than all the Penn State fans who will miss out on watching the "winningest" coach in college football do his thing?
__________________
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Goliath (01-23-2012), The Man (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #36  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:49 AM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
Jesus Christ
Keep in mind that that rape is only one in a long line. There are 8 victims who Sandusky sexually abused many times over the course of months and years described in the grand jury report.

In 1998, a mother reported to the university police that her 11-year-old son (Victim 6 in the grand jury report) had returned from an outing with Sandusky with wet hair. When she questioned him about it, her son told her Sandusky had showered with him. Here's Victim 6's testiimony to the grand jury about what happened that day:

Quote:
Sandusky picked him up at his home, telling him he was going to be working out. As they were driving to the University, Sandusky put his right hand upon Victim 6's left thigh several times. When they arrived, Sandusky showed Victim 6 the locker rooms and gave him shorts to put on, even though he was already dressed in shorts. … Then Sandusky began wrestling with Victim 6, who was much smaller than Sandusky. Then Sandusky said they needed to shower, even though Victim 6 was not sweaty. Victim 6 felt awkward and tried to go to a shower some distance away from Sandusky but Sandusky called him over, saying he had already warmed up a shower for the boy. While in the shower, Sandusky approached the boy, grabbed him around the waist and said, "I'm going to squeeze your guts out." Sandusky lathered up the boy, soaping his back because, he said, the boy would not be able to reach it. Sandusky bear-hugged the boy from behind, holding the boy's back against his chest. Then he picked him up and put him under the showerhead to rinse soap out of his hair. Victim 6 testified that the entire shower episode felt very awkward. No one else was around when this occurred.
The State College Police Department investigated and Sandusky admitted to the cops that he had indeed showered with the boy and hugged him naked and that that was "inappopriate." The DA declined to press charges.

In 1999, Sandusky retired from Penn State at the very early age of 55. Even though he had an excellent record of victories, had won major awards and was widely considered one of the best coaches in college football, he never got another coaching job. Penn gives him a supercushy retirement package that includes full and unfettered access to all university facilities, including locker rooms and showers.

Then three years later McQueary witnesses Sandusky anally raping a 10-year-old boy and Palermo et al, all of whom were perfectly aware of the 1998 case which Sandusky admitted to don't even report it to their own cops this time. They just revoke his locker room privileges so he'll have to rape boys in showers not under their supervision.

It's beyond perverse, and you can make bank that the whole story hasn't even come out yet.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (11-11-2011), ChuckF (11-11-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Deadlokd (11-11-2011), Dragar (12-17-2011), Janet (11-17-2011), Kael (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), Stephen Maturin (11-11-2011), Stormlight (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011), viscousmemories (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #37  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:53 AM
Deadlokd's Avatar
Deadlokd Deadlokd is offline
Not as smart as Adam
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensland
Gender: Male
Posts: MXCCXXIX
Images: 21
Default Re: the end of an era.

Jesus Christ
__________________
Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-11-2011, 01:54 AM
Iacchus's Avatar
Iacchus Iacchus is offline
Flipper 11/11
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCXXXVI
Default Re: the end of an era.

Hey, did anybody know that the threat of child abuse typically lurks close to home?

Quote:
Jonel Aleccia, Spokesman Review, April 8, 2007

The thing is, the abuser was such a nice guy. He wasn't a monster, some stranger preying on the single mom and her 7-year-old daughter. He was a friend, a neighbor, a 35-year-old man who said he saw how hard the Spokane woman worked and wanted to help out. He carried her groceries. He bought her dinner. He offered to baby-sit. And then, late at night, under the guise of watching TV, the nice guy molested the second-grader.

"He started by rubbing her legs," said Detective Doug Orr, who conducts polygraph exams for the Spokane Police Department and the state Department of Corrections. "Then he penetrated her."

The scary thing isn't just that such a scenario occurred, said Orr, who administered a maintenance polygraph last week aimed at holding the convicted sex offender, now 42, to the terms of his probation.

Equally alarming is how often it happens.
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:25 AM
Iacchus's Avatar
Iacchus Iacchus is offline
Flipper 11/11
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Oregon, USA
Gender: Male
Posts: VMMCXXXVI
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckF View Post
... mouthbreathing shitposters like thedoc, they occasionally seep into media coverage too.
And this is a declaration that you've recently mended your ways?

Come on Chuck! :D
__________________
Death (and living) is all in our heads. It is a creation of our own imagination. So, maybe we just "imagine" that we die? :prettycolors:

Like to download a copy of my book, The Advent of Dionysus? . . . It's free! :whup:
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:50 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
What about the ten year old boy? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than Joe Pa? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than all the Penn State fans who will miss out on watching the "winningest" coach in college football do his thing?

I will defer to you to determine who the victims are as I am not in the know, except for what has been posted on MSN. I would certainly not advocate for anyone other than the young boys who were taken advantage of in this case, but let justice take its course and let the guilty parties be put away.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:50 AM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Nutty Legionnaire Provost
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMMCCCVIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
There is still the difficulty of 'Innocent till proven Guilty', and I don't know who knew what, when, and how much?
The presumption of innocence has no application outside the context of a criminal trial, and those have yet to be scheduled. There are forty separate charges in Sandusky's case, and the pretrial process will likely be long and tortuous.

Thanks to a rather thorough investigation, we do in fact have a reasonably decent grasp of certain who-knew-what-where-and-when components. For instance, we are absolutely sure that by 2002 JoePa knew or had reason to know that Jerry Sandusky, Paterno's long-time defensive coordinator, was taking advantage of the privileges of emeritus status to use university facilities as his own personal fuck chamber for anally raping prepubescent boys.

And then there was the 1998 incident that liv described. Everyone knew about that one, JoePa included.

And then there's the fact that Sandusky indulged his perversions with all the subtlety of a bukkake film. Given the closeness with which they worked, I would be quite surprised if Paterno did not know about or at least strongly suspect Sandusky's pedophilia WAY before 1998. (I suppose it's possible that Sandusky first began molesting little boys in 1994, the year of the first incident referenced in the report, but that's less likely than the advent of Golden Age of Seymour Lessans.)

The whole story is no doubt far larger and more heinous than what's come to light thus far. JoePa is looking to hire criminal defense counsel. Smart move.
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
ChuckF (11-11-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Deadlokd (11-11-2011), erimir (11-11-2011), Goliath (01-23-2012), livius drusus (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), SharonDee (11-11-2011), Stormlight (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #42  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:53 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iacchus View Post
And this is a declaration that you've recently mended your ways?

Come on Chuck! :D
And just what 'ways' does he need to mend, he is what he is, get over it.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-11-2011, 02:59 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
The whole story is no doubt far larger and more heinous than what's come to light thus far. JoePa is looking to hire criminal defense counsel. Smart move.
And that is on his head, not mine.


Are you suggesting that, out of indignation, I should run up there and personally castrate everyone myself? With a rusty knife?
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:01 AM
livius drusus's Avatar
livius drusus livius drusus is offline
Admin of THIEVES and SLUGABEDS
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: LVCCCLXXII
Images: 5
Default Re: the end of an era.

You seem to be making a lot of unwarrented [sic] assumptions.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Goliath (01-23-2012), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), Stormlight (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #45  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:01 AM
Demimonde's Avatar
Demimonde Demimonde is offline
an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
Posts: VMMCDLXI
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 28
Default Re: the end of an era.

Yes. I am positively certain that is exactly what he was saying. There is no mistaking it really.
__________________
:boobkicker:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Dragar (12-17-2011), Kael (11-11-2011), livius drusus (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), Sock Puppet (11-11-2011), Stephen Maturin (11-11-2011), Stormlight (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #46  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:04 AM
Stephen Maturin's Avatar
Stephen Maturin Stephen Maturin is offline
Nutty Legionnaire Provost
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Juggalonia
Posts: VMMCCCVIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Are you suggesting that, out of indignation, I should run up there and personally castrate everyone myself? With a rusty knife?
A rusty butterknife, thedoc, a rusty butterknife. Jesus, nobody on this forum can fucking read!
__________________
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis D. Brandeis

"Psychos don't explode when sunlight hits them, I don't give a fuck how crazy they are." ~ S. Gecko

"What the fuck is a German muffin?" ~ R. Swanson
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Angakuk (11-11-2011), ChuckF (11-11-2011), chunksmediocrites (11-11-2011), Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Goliath (01-23-2012), Kael (11-11-2011), livius drusus (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #47  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:05 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by livius drusus View Post
You seem to be making a lot of unwarrented [sic] assumptions.

No, I was asking a question, do you need a refresher course in English Grammer?
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #48  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:06 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
Jesus, nobody on this forum can fucking read!
Good question.
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Clutch Munny (11-11-2011), Watser? (11-11-2011)
  #49  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:08 AM
Demimonde's Avatar
Demimonde Demimonde is offline
an angry unicorn or a non-murdering leprechaun
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edge of Society
Gender: Female
Posts: VMMCDLXI
Blog Entries: 5
Images: 28
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadlokd View Post
What about the ten year old boy? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than Joe Pa? Would you say he was less of a victim, an equal victim or more of a victim than all the Penn State fans who will miss out on watching the "winningest" coach in college football do his thing?

I will defer to you to determine who the victims are as I am not in the know, except for what has been posted on MSN. I would certainly not advocate for anyone other than the young boys who were taken advantage of in this case, but let justice take its course and let the guilty parties be put away.
Oh, come now. You begin a thread entitled "the end of an era" with the OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedoc View Post
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. (AP)

In a massive shakeup, Penn State football coach Joe Paterno and school president Graham Spanier were fired Wednesday night by the board of trustees amid the growing furor over how the school handled child sex abuse allegations against an assistant coach.
So that you can discuss how there is nothing known about the case? When anyone posts any response about the facts as known, you have to rush in to state there are no facts? Then you immediately ramp up the histrionic machine to "lynch mobs" and "castration" if anyone assumes the guilt of the accused?

:halftroll:
__________________
:boobkicker:
Reply With Quote
Thanks, from:
Deadlokd (11-11-2011), Nullifidian (11-11-2011), The Man (11-11-2011)
  #50  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:08 AM
thedoc's Avatar
thedoc thedoc is offline
I'm Deplorable.
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: XMMCCCXCIII
Default Re: the end of an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Maturin View Post
A rusty butterknife, thedoc, a rusty butterknife. Jesus, nobody on this forum can fucking read!

I was going to say 'I don't have one' but I actually do, I'd just need to find it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  Freethought Forum > The Public Baths > News, Politics & Law


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 

All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Page generated in 1.00043 seconds with 16 queries