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Old 10-24-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Philosophy of Death | Yale Philosophy Lecture

This is the introductory talk Shelly Kagan gives to his Death class. He starts by explaining the course, which is probably of interest only to those with a penchant for that kind of thing (if you are one of them, the whole lecture series seems to be available on-line so "Enjoy!"). But 21 mins in he starts to talk about grading, and to defend himself against the complaint of being one of Yale's harsher graders. It reminded me of some of the things TLR has written, so I thought it was well worth sharing.

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Old 10-24-2009, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

I'm assuming he's taking a stand against grade inflation.

I understand the desire to counteract grade inflation, however, a response to it would be best done as a university-wide policy, not by an individual professor. You don't want to just give out an average grade of C because you simply want the average to be C while other people want the average to be a B, but you also want other people to know that a C is an average grade. That is, presumably he's not just giving out lower grades because he wants to be harsh. But if you're one of only professors doing that, then other people will read the transcript and think that the student did poor work to earn a C, rather than average work.
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

I'm assuming he's ... That is, presumably he's ...

It's almost as if you are commenting without having listened, erimir. That's the way to get a failing grade.
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Old 10-24-2009, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

You are correct, because I didn't want to wait for 21 minutes of video to load to simply hear a discussion of grade inflation that would probably be similar to ones I've heard before. Am I wrong in my assumption?

That's generally the reason given for comparatively harsh grading.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

I didn't want to wait for 21 minutes of video to load ...

LOL Then it would have been wiser not to offer a deliberately uninformed opinion, I think. You look as if you are taking issue with me for the sake of it.
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Old 10-26-2009, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

That's an interesting misreading, mick.
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Old 10-26-2009, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Shame, shame erimir, for offering a deliberately uninformed opinion, mickthinks thinks. What do you think this is, phonology?

Re: OP, tl;dw.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:03 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

:wtf: Shame? Why should erimir be ashamed of his desire to venture an uninformed comment, MockF?
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:12 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET DAMAGES!
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Okay, I guess you don't have a serious point to make here, Chuck. Quelle surprise...
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Old 10-26-2009, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Oh, sorry, you get a failing grade.
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Old 10-26-2009, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

For some people, the actual lectures might be more intresting than Mick's starting this thread for the sole purpose of troll baiting and launching another discussion about himself. The philosophy of death lectures are all available in both video and in transcripts, as are a whole bunch of other Yale courses. I've read most of them, including the philosophy of death lectures; it's very intresting stuff. They also have online courses in the American Civil War, 20th century and classical literature, physics, cosmology, the Old Testament, etc. Quite good. Yale lectures for free! Beats Mickthinks lectures!
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

FWIW mick doesn't seem to have started this thread as troll-bait, and erimir's assumption about grade inflation was sorta wrong, although mick's somewhat condescending responses and the chick'n'muck roadshow don't exactly do any favours for discussion.

Anyway, I thought the grading stuff was a bit interesting.
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Old 10-27-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

I thought it was interesting too. In the one Philo class I took in college, I definitely found paper-writing a very different discipline from writing the English and History essays I was accustomed to. I'm sure I would have got a C or two had my prof insisted on an excellent-good-satisfactory standard.

Thankfully it was a small class (maybe a half dozen students) with lots of direct interaction with the professor. No army of TAs cranking out grades for masses of papers.

I also found it interesting that the whole spiel was addressed to overachiever students accustomed to getting great grades with minimal effort, as opposed to TLR's experience, for instance, of underachieving students accustomed to getting passing grades with no effort.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

... mick's somewhat condescending responses ...

Condescending how? I'm guessing fragment means "critical" - a different thing entirely.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:41 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidm View Post
For some people, the actual lectures might be more intresting than Mick's starting this thread for the sole purpose of troll baiting and launching another discussion about himself. The philosophy of death lectures are all available in both video and in transcripts, as are a whole bunch of other Yale courses. I've read most of them, including the philosophy of death lectures; it's very intresting stuff. They also have online courses in the American Civil War, 20th century and classical literature, physics, cosmology, the Old Testament, etc. Quite good. Yale lectures for free! Beats Mickthinks lectures!
LOL Your petty hatred is seeping through your wadded panties again, daveyboy. :wink:
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
I didn't want to wait for 21 minutes of video to load ...

LOL Then it would have been wiser not to offer a deliberately uninformed opinion, I think. You look as if you are taking issue with me for the sake of it.
Why's that? I never claimed to have watched the video, and that is my opinion about grade inflation - it's better tackled at an institutional level than by individual professors. I was hoping that if I was wrong, it might be explained as to what was wrong with my assumption, and what he actually said without necessitating me watching 21 minutes of a lecture.

Furthermore, your OP doesn't really offer much in the way of your opinion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
But 21 mins in he starts to talk about grading, and to defend himself against the complaint of being one of Yale's harsher graders. It reminded me of some of the things TLR has written, so I thought it was well worth sharing.
...so I don't see why you would get the impression I was trying to contradict an opinion you never offered.
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erimir's assumption about grade inflation was sorta wrong
Would you care to explicate, having watched it?
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

To bounce off the university-wide policy thing you mentioned, he was saying that there is in fact a school-wide policy on what grades mean, he was marking to that, and people should interpret the grades on that basis - A is excellent, B is good, C is satisfactory. He only mentioned grade inflation when he was talking about how he'd tried to find out whether he did in fact grade harder than others and was told that information wasn't given out because it might encourage grade inflation. He also said a bunch of stuff about how writing philosophy papers is hard but you get better with practice, if you put the effort in your grades will get better, and if you show improvement they'll weight the later papers more in your final grade.
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

You don't have to watch the lecture. There's a transcript here.

The key bitsOther bits of business. I should say something about grades. Now many of you may have heard, many of you may know, and if you don't already know this, I should warn you, that I have a reputation around Yale as being a harsh grader. I know this is true, that is, I know I have the reputation, both because I periodically in my student evaluations get told I'm one of Yale's harsher graders, and because every now and then the Yale Daily News will have an article about grade inflation and they'll always ask me, "Well Professor Kagan is somebody..." Once there was a story on grade inflation that the Yale Daily News began by saying, "As Shelly Kagan (known at Yale as one of the hardest graders)." So I know I've got at least the reputation of being a hard grader. I don't actually know whether it's deserved or not, because Yale does not publish information about what the grading averages are. At other schools I've taught at there's been information along the lines of well the typical grade in an introductory course in the humanities is such and such. Shortly after I came here to Yale, and I started realizing that people thought I was a harder grader than most other Yale professors, I called the administration and asked, "Do you have this sort of information?" The answer is "Yes." "Will you give it to me?" The answer was "No." They don't share this information with the Yale faculty. Seems odd. The explanation, of course, actually isn't that hard to come by. The worry is that those of us who are harder graders than average, if the information were published, would feel guilty and sort of ease up on our grading. But those who are easier graders than average will never feel guilty and toughen up. So the result would be a constant push up with the grades. At any rate, I don't know for certainty that I'm a harder grader, but I believe that it's the case based on reactions I get when I give the speech that I'm about to give.

Okay, so [laughter]. When I open the blue book, the Yale guideline, the Yale catalog, it's got a page, as you all know, where it says what letter grades mean at Yale. I didn't actually bring it this year. Sometimes I do, but I've got it pretty much memorized. It says, for example, next to each letter grade what it means. B, for example, means good. A means excellent, C means satisfactory, D is passing, F is failing. B, let's start with B. B means good. Now the crucial question then is what does good mean? I take good to mean good. Consequently, [laughter] if you were to write a good paper for me, that would get a B. And when you get a B from me--now, I say me, this is the royal me. Because I won't actually be grading your papers. Your papers will be graded by a small army of TAs. But they will grade under my supervision, and in keeping with the standards that I ask them to grade with. So when you're pissed off about your grade, the person to take it up with--well, take it up with them. But eventually you'll want to take it up with me. So when you get a B from us, B doesn't mean what a piece of crap. B means good job! And so you should be pleased to get a B, because it meant you were doing good work and it's not easy to do good work in philosophy.

A means excellent. Now excellent does not mean publishable. Excellent does not mean you are God's gift to philosophy [laughter]. So it's crucial to understand it doesn't mean that the only way you're going to get an A is to be God's gift to philosophy. A means excellent work for a first class in philosophy. This is an introductory class. It does not presuppose any background in philosophy. Still, to get an A, you've got to show some flair for the subject. You've got to show not only have you understood the ideas that have been put forward in the readings and in the lectures and so forth, but you see how to sort of put them together in the paper in a way that shows you've got some aptitude here. You did it in a way that made us take note. That's what we try to reserve As for. Some of you will end up getting As, if not at the beginning, by the end of the semester. Many of you will end up getting Bs, if not at the beginning, by the end of the semester. Many of you will not start out doing good work. Many of you will start out doing satisfactory work or, truth be told, less than satisfactory work.

Now look, I was an undergraduate once. And I know what it is to write a typical undergraduate paper. You sit down the night before and you had a couple of ideas. You thought about it maybe for a half an hour. And you meant to get to it sooner, but you had a lot of other things to do. And you throw it off in a couple of hours and maybe stay up late. You know it's not the worst thing you ever wrote, and it's not the best thing you ever wrote, and it has a couple of nice ideas, but maybe it could be better. It's sort of a satisfactory job. Yale says satisfactory means C. So many of you will start off the semester writing that kind of paper.

And the fact of the matter is, some of you will start off writing worse papers than that. Because writing a philosophy paper is a difficult thing to learn how to do. It's exercising a set of muscles that a lot of you have not spent a lot of time exercising. Now it's not as though you haven't spent any time doing it. You've had bull sessions, right, with your high school friends or in your college dorm or what have you. But you haven't done it with the kind of discipline and rigor that we're looking for here. So, like anything else, it's a skill that gets better with practice. And what that means, of course, is you won't do as well at the beginning as you're likely to be doing toward the end. Some of you, unfortunately, won't do very good jobs at the beginning--and my TAs, I'll encourage them to be prepared to give Ds. If the vices of the paper significantly outweigh the virtues, that's a D. If the vices very significantly outweigh whatever virtues there are, that's some kind of an F. So the fact of the matter is many of you in your initial papers will get lower grades than you've probably ever gotten before in your life. I wanted to warn you about that.

Now I say this not so much to depress the hell out of you, but (a) partly to warn you, and (b) to make it clear that I believe that it's a skill. Writing a good philosophy paper is a skill and you can get better at it. Consequently, most of you will get better at it. So let me make the following remark. Officially, each paper--you have three five-page papers. Each paper is worth 25% of your grade, officially. But--the remaining 25% is discussion section; I'll get to that in a minute--officially, 25% of your grade is for each of the three papers. But if, over the course of the semester, you get better, then we will give, at the end of the semester, when we're figuring out your semester grade, we'll give the later, stronger papers more than their official weight. For many of you, the first paper will be clearly the worst paper you write. And then we'll just throw that grade away; give greater weight to the second and third papers. If the third paper is the strongest, we will give even more weight to the third paper. There's no formula here, a great deal depends on the overall pattern, what your TA tells me about how you've done over the course of the semester. But this policy of giving greater weight, if you show improvement, is something that most of you will benefit from. So if you end up not doing well, the moral of the story is not to go running off and dropping the class, but to figure out what you did right, what you didn't do right, how to make the second paper better and the third paper stronger, again. And if you do show improvement, that will very significantly influence and emerge in terms of the impact it has on your overall semester grade. Because of this policy, I don't actually know when all is said and done whether at the end of the semester I'm any harder, whether I depart from the average or not.

Let me quickly mention there's a fairly typical grade distribution for the overall grades of this, at the end of the semester. Roughly 25% of you are likely to end up with some kind of an A at the end of the semester. Fifty, 55% of you or so are likely to end up with some kind of a B. Twenty, 25% percent of you might end up with some sort of a C. Sometimes there's a couple of percent that end up worse than that. Unsurprisingly, you've got the ability to do decent work in this class and most of you have the ability to do good work, and some of you have, a fair chunk of you have, the ability to do excellent work, though it may take some work on your part to get to that point.

The last thing I should say about the grades is why do I do this? It's really I try to do it as a sign of respect for you. I know that may seem like a surprising thing to say when I've just sort of gone on my little gleeful amount about how I'm going to fail all of you [laughter], but it's worth my saying you guys are so smart. You're so talented. You've gotten so far on your ability that many of you have learned to coast. It's not doing you any kind of service to let you continue coasting. My goal here is to be honest with you, right? Look, you're smart enough probably most of you to pull off some sort of B without breaking into a sweat, or at least not a significant sweat. So be it. But it's just lying to you to pretend that that's excellence in philosophy. So what I want to do in this class is be honest with you and tell you, "You've really done work here to be extraordinarily proud of yourself" versus "Yeah, you've done something okay" or "You've done good work. Admittedly, it's not great, but you've done good work." All right, that's 75% of your grade is the papers.

The remaining 25% of your grade is based on discussion section. Now that's a lot of your grade to turn on discussion section. So the first thing I need to tell you is I really mean it. If you blow off discussion section, you're grade will suffer. So it's worth knowing in a general way what you need to do to earn a good grade in discussion section and here the answer is, perhaps the obvious one, you need to participate. You need to come to discussion sections having thought about the lectures, having done the readings, having thought about the questions that they raise, and you need to come to discussion section then prepared to discuss this week's set of issues. You need to listen to what your classmates are saying and say why you disagree with them. And not just that you disagree with them, but to raise an objection. Or why you agree with them. And when somebody else then attacks them, say, "Look, I think that what John was saying was a good point and here's how I think he should have defended his position," or what have you. You need to engage in philosophical discussion. If you're not participating in discussion section, you're not doing what the section is there for.

Philosophers love to talk and we love to argue. The way to get better at thinking about philosophy is by talking about philosophy. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm saying, "Look, yeah, that's an important part of the class. So important that it's going to be worth 25% of your grade." Again, it doesn't mean--this is slightly different from the papers--that you've got to be brilliant philosophically to get an A. Rather, you've got to be a wonderful class citizen to get an A for discussion section. So, as I put it, in fact I think I put it this way on the syllabus, participation--and here I mean respectful participation, not hogging the limelight--participation can improve your grade, but it won't lower your grade. Nonparticipation, or not being there, that will lower your participation grade. Any question about any of that?
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2009, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. In fact, if those stats are right about overall grade distributions in his class, it's hard to see how he's a tough grader in the final analysis. My own intro phil courses have often seen lower grades than that, and I am not persuaded that the first-year Yale student intake is much better than my university's.
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Old 10-27-2009, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Are most grade policies not based on some kind of system? Either a curve or points or percentages or something? I understand there is some level of subjectivity, but I fail to see why a "tough" grader would have to justify his system....unless it's not a system at all, but completely arbitrary.

Perhaps my not understanding is due to my not having attended University, but I don't get the controversy.
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

This professor uses a basic A = excellent, B = good, C = satisfactory, D = passing, F = failing system, which is the general Yale standard. Of course there's some subjectivity involved in the assessment, but I don't think a points or percentages system would be effective grading philosophy essays and discussions, because it's not so easily quantifiable.

I suspect the controversy lies in the fact that a bunch of high school valedictorians might encounter their first C, D, F grades ever in his class, ergo they see the professor as a tough grader instead of the discipline as a whole new kind of challenge that takes some practice to excel at.
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Thanks liv :)
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Old 10-27-2009, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

If the Yalies would stop worrying about getting straight "A"s, nobody would care. If the "gentleman C" was good enough for the parents, it should be good enough for the legacies.
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Old 10-28-2009, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: A philosophy professor justifies tough grade policy

Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
I don't see why you would get the impression I was trying to contradict an opinion you never offered.
Really? Consider:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mickthinks View Post
... so I thought it was well worth sharing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
... I didn't want to wait for 21 minutes of video to load to simply hear a discussion of grade inflation that would probably be similar to ones I've heard before.
There's none so blind as those who won't see.
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