General LGBTQIA issues thread

[koan]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

I want to point out that the rate of suicide attempts among transgender people is beyond upsetting.

http://www.livescience.com/11208-hig...er-people.html

I definitely sympathize. I know I've not contributed to such a problem as I've never voiced my opinion on transexuals until what I wrote in this thread. It's not like I go around dissing them. I said it because it's an opinion I have that bothers me. I can't change that opinion until I get more information.

I don't know if you've had the chance to become friends with a transgender person, but I found in just knowing one person and listening to how they've reasoned the decision to transition, I was gravely ignorant.

I have and I remain gravely ignorant because our friendship didn't allow for such discussions. The two I've known, unfortunately, contributed to my opinion. They just weren't nice people. I realize they don't represent an entire community. As you admit you were ignorant, I also admit it.

Again, this is a matter of personal identity. When another person refuses to accept you as the person you think you are, it's eats you up inside.

In regards to the woman I referred to in the last post, she was equally prejudiced towards the idea of being transgender. They worked together and had known each other for sometime, but when the decision to transition came up, she not only refused to use male pronouns (after a legal name change) but acted as if being transgender was a joke.

I really don't give a fuck what anyone's personal opinion about it is, if someone can't respect another person's personal identity when they are open about it, they obviously have a problem of their own they need to figure out.

Thank you. That helps.

In this case it's an obvious superiority complex.

I hope you don't mean me. At no point have I expressed superiority. On the contrary, I openly expressed and admit that I feel ignorant on the issue.

[koan]

Two final things about my comments on transsexuals:
1) I forgot that I mentioned my opinion in another forum where the topic was whether or not a prisoner should be granted sex reassignment surgery at the taxpayer's expense, so this was the second time I'd voiced that opinion.

2) As a result of being honest with you all and with myself I finally found a non ranting blog that led to something that finally educated me.
Swaab » Body integrity identity disorder :: nrc.nl

I had no idea that there were also people who believe their perfectly healthy leg or arm should be amputated and will mutilate themselves until it is surgically removed. (BIID) Learning about the science behind it helped me understand and a lot more people would understand if there were more transexuals willing to talk about and explain their disorder patiently. I don't think calling it a disorder is wrong. The many blogs by transsexuals that I read today referred to themselves as having a medical condition and were very angry at people who didn't recognize it as such.

[Gonzo]

Originally Posted by koan

I definitely sympathize. I know I've not contributed to such a problem as I've never voiced my opinion on transexuals until what I wrote in this thread. It's not like I go around dissing them. I said it because it's an opinion I have that bothers me. I can't change that opinion until I get more information.

Making an effort to be an ally and more understanding helps.

I don't know where I'd be without all the gay/ bisexual friends I've had. Dead, probably.

I hope you don't mean me. At no point have I expressed superiority. On the contrary, I openly expressed and admit that I feel ignorant on the issue.

No, no. My "friend". I actually just got done talking to her. What a condescending jerk. Fuck.

She made a point to tell me what a close-minded small town guy I am. XD

[koan]

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Making an effort to be an ally and more understanding helps.

I don't know where I'd be without all the gay/ bisexual friends I've had. Dead, probably.

No, no. My "friend". I actually just got done talking to her. What a condescending jerk. Fuck.

She made a point to tell me what a close-minded small town guy I am. XD

lol
Sometimes there is no point arguing. Next time she needs advice just remind her you're a close-minded small town bi guy.

In re bi people being more likely to cheat, I just had a falling out with a "friend" because she thought she might experiment with women as a fix to letting her exboyfriend move back in so she could stay on his benefits plan and be a babysitter for her kid. He grosses her out but she figured it might be okay if she starts up a relationship with a woman on the side. I failed to convince her it wasn't an issue of her right to explore her sexual preference it was an issue of monogamy and not using people. I'm a judgemental bitch. At least she won't be asking me for advice any more.

[Gonzo]

I'm a big fan of monogamy. :I

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by koan

Two final things about my comments on transsexuals:
1) I forgot that I mentioned my opinion in another forum where the topic was whether or not a prisoner should be granted sex reassignment surgery at the taxpayer's expense, so this was the second time I'd voiced that opinion.

Hmm, interesting. SRS is not done on just anyone who requests it. It's not like getting cosmetic surgery. There are requirements regarding living as your preferred gender for a specified amount of time, undergoing hormone therapy, intense psychological evaluations, etc. In a prison situation there would also be an issue with appropriate housing facilities during transition.

Gender identity disorder is a valid medical condition and IMO should be treated as such, and I further think prisoners should receive necessary medical treatment. But, as SRS is not covered by VA, Medicaid, or Medicare, and only rarely covered under private insurance (though this is changing and some big employers are including this in their insurance packages), I doubt it would be considered medically necessary under whatever health care regulations are found in prisons.

But, some of these court cases may change that.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by koan

a lot more people would understand if there were more transexuals willing to talk about and explain their disorder patiently

[koan]

Originally Posted by Ensign Steve

Sorry, I don't buy that.
You don't create tolerance and understanding that way.

Some of the blog I read were ranting about 'trend trans' because it fuelled myths. There was even a rant about the expansion of transgender because it included so many non-medical fetish type intermediate states that the guy didn't even know what the word meant anymore.

I haven't devoted large chunks of my life to researching marginal sexual orientations because I don't have animosity towards them and it had never before been an issue. I didn't even know I felt that way until the thread about the prison surgery came up about a year ago. I'm a member of the LGBT community and information had not come across my path so you be damn sure most of the non community members have never come across it either.

People don't know what they don't know. If they know they don't know it then they have the opportunity to find out.

The "It Gets Better" campaign doesn't work by having a bunch of LGBT people say "I'm different, go find out why" it works because they tell their stories.

[Ensign Steve]

Originally Posted by koan

Sorry, I don't buy that.

Good, because I'm not selling anything.

It's not anybody's job to "create tolerance and understanding". That should be the default. If you have a problem with somebody else's identity, it is your problem, not theirs.

As far as if only "there were more transexuals willing to talk about and explain their disorder patiently" there are puh-lenty. Do some research. That's what Google is for. You can find blogs of people's personal experiences, you can find medical articles about the phenomenon which you choose to call a disorder, you can find an entire tumblr devoted to making pink squares with text responding to your exact crap argument, because they've heard it 1000 times already.

It is not every trans person you mean on the street's job to sit down with you and hold your hand and explain patiently their exact position in life. They have plenty to deal with already, like rejection and physical violence. And most likely they don't even 100% understand what is going on themselves, much less have the patience to spell it out for you.

Decent behavior toward people should be the default position, not one you take only after they have taken the time to justify their existence to you in a way you can understand.

[Ensign Steve]

And it's like, I'm not even trans. How did I do it? Empathy.

[lisarea]

Derailing for Dummies seems to have disappeared again, but "If you won't educate me, how will I learn?" was the top derailing tactic covered.

Particularly on the internet, when you know someone has access to information, it can be annoying to have someone demand explanations of basic concepts. It's not unreasonable at all to expect people to make some small effort to find information on their own.

And based on a whole lot of experience, if someone is being really insistent that you personally educate them about something that's easily researched, odds are pretty good it's literally just a derailing tactic, and that they're not going to read what you write for them, anyway. They're just trying to waste your time. That's it. I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but it happens a lot, so some people who might otherwise be willing to explain won't because they're done it a million times and never had anyone listen.

I can see maybe sitting down and patiently explaining things to someone you're very close to or something, as long as they're actually listening, but there just isn't time to do that for everyone. And think about it. Transgendered people are such a small minority that if they took the time to personally answer everyone's questions, they wouldn't have time to do anything else.

[koan]

There is a lot of information "out there" including news stories about transsexual regret and detransitioning.


All I'm saying is that if you decide posting insulting slogans at people who really want to understand something is a good idea you're more likely to lose an ally. Creating tolerance is not achieved by the use of insulting pink memes.

[Ensign Steve]

Meh. No big loss.

[koan]

I have a quick answer for people who ask me about being bi. I explain that I fall in love with people and their gender isn't a concern. It takes no time at all to explain.

I enjoy explaining it to people.

[Kael]

Isn't it interesting how terse, direct, and non-coddling language is insulting when it flows in the opposite direction of privilege? It's like how assertive guys are assertive, but assertive ladies are sassy/bitchy.

[koan]

I worked on four films with a MtF. We went for dim sum, coffee dates, hung out in her apartment,... I knew her long enough that she could have shared her story. I was a makeup artist and worked with hairdressers, about half of whom are gay men. I made Patrick Duffy up in drag for an episode of Dead Man's Gun. I'm not lacking empathy or community spirit.

I am not the enemy.

[Kael]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting you are. Enmity is not required for bias, intolerance, or ignorance, it just exacerbates them. FWIW, I've been on the receiving end of discussions like this several times, it's really tough and often frustrating, and I don't usually appreciate it until much later.

[koan]

Special Note to Those Thinking About a Sex Change,
by Danielle Berry
[Compiled from a number of emails I sent in response to requests for input from those considering their own change.]
Don't do it! That's my advice. This is the most awful, most expensive, most painful, most disruptive thing you could ever do. Don't do it unless there is no other alternative. You may think your life is tough but unless it's a choice between suicide and a sex-change it will only get worse. And the costs keep coming. You lose control over most aspects of your life, become a second class citizen and all so you can wear women's clothes and feel cuter than you do now. Don't do it is all I've got to say.

That's advice I wish someone had given me. I had the sex change, I "pass" fine, my career is good but you can't imagine the number of times I've wished I could go back and see if there was another way. Despite following the rules and being as honest as I could with the medical folks at each stage, nobody stopped me and said "Are you honest to God absolutely sure this is the ONLY path for you?!" To the contrary, the voices were all cheerfully supportive of my decision. I was fortunate that the web didn't exist then - there are too damn many cheerleaders ready to reassure themselves of their own decision by parading their "successful" surgeries and encouraging others.

I can speak the transgender party line that I was a female trapped in a male body and I remember feeling this way since I was 4. But, it's never that easy if you look at it sincerely and without preconception. There's little question that a mid-life crisis, a divorce and a cancer scare were involved in at least the timing of my sex-change decision. To be completely honest at this point (3 yrs post-op) is not easy, however, I'm not sure I would do it again. I'm now concerned that much of what I took as a gender dysfunction might have been nothing more than a neurotic sexual obsession. I was a cross-dresser for all of my sexual life and had always fantasized going fem as an ultimate turn-on. Ironically, when I began hormone treatment my libido went away. However, I mistook that relief from sexual obsession for validation of my gender change. Then in the final bit of irony, after surgery my new genitals were non-orgasmic (like 80% of my TG sisters).

So, needless to say, my life as a woman is not an ultimate turn-on. And what did it all cost? Over $30,000 and the loss of most of my relationships to family and friends. And the costs don't end. Every relationship I make now and in the future has to come to terms with the sex-change. And I'm not the only one who suffers. I hate the impact this will have on my kids and their future.

Anyway, I'm making it sound awful and it's not. There are some perks but the important things like being comfortable with myself and having a true love in my life don't seem like they were contingent on the change. Being my "real self" could have included having a penis and including more femininity in whatever forms made sense. I didn't know that until too late and now I have to make the best of the life I've stumbled into. I just wish I would have tried more options before I jumped off the precipice. I miss my easy access to my kids (unlike many TS's I didn't completely lose access to them though), I miss my family and old friends (I know they "shouldn't" have abandoned me but lots of folks aren't as open minded as they "should" be ... I still miss them) and finally, I hate the disconnect with my past (there's just no way to integrate the two unrelated lives). There's any number of ways to express your gender and sexuality and the only one I tried was the big one. I'll never know if I could have found a compromise that might have worked a lot better than the "one size fits all" sex-change. Please, check it out yourself before you do likewise."

- Danielle Berry -
bolded emphasis added

[koan]

Also, I dated a bisexual for a few months last year who had had spent about 7 months living as a woman during the required transitional phase of a year then realised he was just fucked up in the head. That's all he was willing to tell me about it.

We broke up because he told me he was "too fucked up in the head" to be a good boyfriend. We're still on good terms.

I think Danielle makes an good point about the internet and how overly supportive people can actually contribute to bad decisions.

[lisarea]

I have known some decent people who genuinely didn't understand this, but for real, not everyone enjoys talking about themselves a lot. I am an extremely boring average person, and I get super annoyed when people ask me personal questions, particularly if I don't know them very well. They're all, "Would you like fries with that?" and stuff, and I'm like "WELL I NEVER."

I can only imagine how miserable it would be if people regularly felt I owed them an explanation for my gender or sexuality or something.

I think that's what a lot of it comes down to. People thinking they're entitled to explanations, thinking it's up to them to 'tolerate' people who are just minding their own business, and overvaluing their own opinions as though it should be really important that you get them on your side because of what a powerful ally they are.

[koan]

I think people are entitled to explanations. I think their opinions are important. Individual opinions are what make up societal attitudes.

I'm quite fearful of telling people to educate themselves online. It's not like every information source online is a good one. Some people get educated to gay bash online. It depends on where they go for information.

A lot of religious organizations have websites.

[koan]

I'm just shaking my head at the very idea that someone should take the time to learn about LGBTetc on their own because we won't take the time to explain it to them.

That just astounds me.

[Kael]

There's a difference in attitude that matters. "I don't get it," vs "this is different from me tell me why it's okay NAO!"

[koan]

So we should tell all those who don't understand because they think they already know to go fuck themselves and call them names?

I'm pretty sure that "biphobia" exists because some gay people are bi until they decide they are completely gay and they testify that it's just a phase. Then we have bisexuality as a sexy fad that has straight women happily pleasing their partners by kissing and fondling a girl while letting their boyfriend watch. And the promiscuous bi (like Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct) who lives with a woman but gives Michael Douglas the fuck of a lifetime before she discards him.

Just as people come to wrong conclusions about bi people from bad sources of information, I got my ideas about transsexuals from transsexuals. One who is a nasty bitch and makes up lies about what it was like growing up with a woman's body and refuses to even admit she's trans even around friends. One who became a woman and is now a trans lesbian who only hits on straight girls. One who stopped his transition before hormones and surgery because he says he was fucked in the head. I think I had good reason to question surgery.

Now I've spent time looked into it further, I understand that it's an actual medical condition that some people who are fucked up mistakenly think they have. I'm convinced that it's important to help trans people question if it is really their condition before they get surgery instead of blindly encouraging them to do whatever they want. People want to do really stupid things sometimes. Of course it's important to support people who transition but its a fact that a lot of the time even they don't know if that's what's right for them.

Newspapers don't print stories about transsexuals who live happily ever after. They print the ones about trans who change their minds. People read those stories and think they know something. We can't blame them for misinformation. We can't blame people for confusion. It's confusing. There are "ex-trans" online telling everyone how pissed off they are that doctors let them have the surgery. There are doctors being sued for performing the surgery.

When people have ideas about something, it's usually for a reason.

[Ari]

This is a common argument from privilege. 'If you really cared you would educate me.' Of course the whiney if you poke it subtext is that the time and place should be determined by the privileged and the unprivileged should be ready to offer a nice explanation any time and place (preferably an explanation that fits their previous views, cause often people don't really want to learn they want confirmation of their own biases.) If you aren't willing too then you are a bad _____ and not helping "the cause." Which to me always comes off as a veiled threat out of frustration. "Do what I say or else bad things might happen." As if they were only being nice to get something.

Often people don't like the answer "I'm busy right now, but have some free time around 3am, can I have your number, I can explain it then!" Almost like they value their time more than yours. Funny that. I've found those who are actually interested in learning are quite happy to put it off for a better time and place.

A real world example:
Last year I helped run a conference with tons of interesting topics and an emphasis on giving voice to the lesser privileged. We also had multiple parties connected to it. At one of those parties a new guy said some stupid things and a girl next to him turned around and walked away. OMG Gais the poor little white boy was silence, silenced I say, by this act. He later complained on the internet that had she been a real ally she would have taken the time to stop partying, sit down and calmly explain to him why he was wrong. Now remember this wasn't just any party, this was a party after a long day of people giving involved talks on the very topic he wanted to be educated on, a conference that still had a day to go. Yet that she didn't drop everything to baby step him through it right then and there offended him and totally damaged "the cause."

Originally Posted by koan

I think people are entitled to explanations.

Ha! Fuck. That. Shit.
I don't owe people anything, I'm not their personal ask Jeeves, especially if I've never met them before.
I'm amused when people get huffy when my answer is "because" they often explain indignantly why that wouldn't work *for them* because this is really about them and not about learning. "Why did you do that do your hair?" Because. "It's not right. My work would never let me get away with it." Um, sucks for you… why are you talking to me? (Oh of course you just wanted 'to learn').

I really loathe to use the term Sheeple but people have an amazing herding instinct where they think by doing something you are somehow suggesting they do it too. I think this is where people get the feeling that a gay couple out and about is somehow "Pushing their gay on everyone else."