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Old 08-24-2004, 04:19 PM
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Default Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

The Scream has got to be on a short list of the most recognizable works of art in the world, and it (and another painting titled Madonna) has been stolen. My first reaction was that it sucks to lose something so historically significant, and I hope it's returned intact. My second reaction was something more akin to "so what?" I don't really have a problem with this inconsistency, but I'm open to talking about it.

I first heard about the Taliban when they took it upon themselves to destroy those Buddha sculptures. Where most people thought it was a completely inexcusable act, I reasoned that it demonstrated a committment to their beliefs that you don't see much these days. IOW, they saw the sculptures as false idols, and according to their beliefs they had to be destroyed. I didn't like it, but it made sense to me.

What really annoyed me, though, was what the media and people I met were not talking about: The Taliban's human rights abuses, and in particular their complete and utter subjugation of women. And honestly the more I learned about that the less important the sculpture defacing was to me. Keep in mind this was months before 9/11, too. Before the Taliban were a household name for anything related to human rights abuse, they became a household name for statue abuse.

I guess I feel similarly about The Scream. It would suck bad if it was damaged or lost, but I guess I would prefer to see more attention given to other (IMO more urgent) disturbing goings-on in the world.
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Old 08-24-2004, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

The first thing I thought when I heard The Scream was stolen was something along the lines of "Damn!" Then I read that it had been stolen at least once before, and for some reason that made it better. Like, "Oh, this always happens. It'll be back eventually." Then I became annoyed that they hadn't added any real security after it had been stolen the first time. :P

I hate to admit this, but the destruction of those buddhas in Afghanistan was as disturbing to me as the human rights abuses, if not moreso. I'm not completely sure why, but I think it may be because there are always more humans around, but no more massive, ancient buddhas will be forthcoming. I guess that makes me a bad person. :(

It's not that I don't care about the human rights abuses, they just go into that emotional file labeled "Terrible things that happen every day and you can't do anything about so you might as well not worry too much about them, because the world is full of far too much suffering for one person to be personally concerned with". While the statues' destruction was surprising and unique as well as saddening.
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Old 08-24-2004, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trendkill
The first thing I thought when I heard The Scream was stolen was something along the lines of "Damn!" Then I read that it had been stolen at least once before, and for some reason that made it better. Like, "Oh, this always happens. It'll be back eventually." Then I became annoyed that they hadn't added any real security after it had been stolen the first time. :P
That's funny. :) I didn't realize it had been stolen before, but it does make me wonder why they didn't (and stated they won't again) beef up security.

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I hate to admit this, but the destruction of those buddhas in Afghanistan was as disturbing to me as the human rights abuses, if not moreso. I'm not completely sure why, but I think it may be because there are always more humans around, but no more massive, ancient buddhas will be forthcoming. I guess that makes me a bad person. :(
I don't think it makes you a bad person. I hope you'll go over to this thread, though, and explain why you think an old rock is more valuable than human life. (Just teasing! :D But I really am interested in your input there.)

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It's not that I don't care about the human rights abuses, they just go into that emotional file labeled "Terrible things that happen every day and you can't do anything about so you might as well not worry too much about them, because the world is full of far too much suffering for one person to be personally concerned with". While the statues' destruction was surprising and unique as well as saddening.
That makes sense to me. If we fretted over every injustice in the world we'd all be basket cases. Well, or in the case of some of us even worse basket cases. :)
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

I agree, even with the "so what?"

I suppose this makes more news because it's more, well, news. More unique. Human rights abuses are going on all around ... even at home if you define it broadly ... wherever your home is. Also, you can feel outraged by theft of art and destruction of another religion's icons, without it getting to you personally. (I don't mean your outrage or hurt is not real and direct. But abuse of people is more sickening and maybe we don't want to talk about or think about it so much. Maybe we can't express outrage without wondering why we aren't getting on a plane there or starting an action group.)

The destruction of the Buddhas reminds* me of this koan:

If you find an ancient sculpture of the Buddha on the road, what should you do?

Destroy it.

* Reminds, as in I thought of it just before writing this reply.
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Old 08-25-2004, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

It isn't the original, it's a copy. Still done by Munch, but not the "original" Scream.

As for the Buddha's, people lived in those statues. They were peoples' homes. That's not cool in any book.
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

... people lived in those statues.

So that's what Douglas J. Bender meant ...
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Old 08-25-2004, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adora
It isn't the original, it's a copy. Still done by Munch, but not the "original" Scream.
Ohh... huh. Well what's all the fuss about, then? I can probably spit and hit a copy of the Scream somewhere in my bedroom. Is there a painting besides the Mona Lisa that's more commonly imitated? (And yeah, I know a printing press isn't quite the same as Munch's own hand, but a copy's a copy, no?).

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As for the Buddha's, people lived in those statues. They were peoples' homes. That's not cool in any book.
Huh, I didn't know that. Well anyway my point wasn't that it wasn't wrong of them to destroy the statues. I had two main points, really. That destroying false idols is consistent with their beliefs and that the destruction of statues (and now that I know about it, people's homes) is IMO a less egregious offense than some of their other human rights abuses, yet the latter got almost no press until 9/11.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

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Well what's all the fuss about, then?
Indeed. Now I'm annoyed again.

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As for the Buddha's, people lived in those statues. They were peoples' homes.
Right. I knew that all along. Really. :innocent:
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Old 08-26-2004, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by viscousmemories
Ohh... huh. Well what's all the fuss about, then? I can probably spit and hit a copy of the Scream somewhere in my bedroom. Is there a painting besides the Mona Lisa that's more commonly imitated? (And yeah, I know a printing press isn't quite the same as Munch's own hand, but a copy's a copy, no?).
*sighs* Such uncultured peons you lot are! ;)

Just because it isn't an original original, doesn't mean it isn't worth a hell of a lot of money. Painting copies done by the hand of the original painter are still worth lots more than a print - even a high-quality limited edition print.

Take, for example, a Brett Whitely (uber-famous Australian painter) print I have hanging over my dining table. It's 1/150 (I think, don't quote me) and came with a book all about his works etc. Last time we had it valued, it was worth $3000 AUS. My brother and I have play-fights about who's going to get it when my folks die.

However, The absolute original would probably be worth up to about $8000 maybe, at a good auction. A copy of the original done by Whitely would probably be about $5000. And this is just for a pen-and-ink sketch of a tree in Sydney. Still looks like a load of bums to me, but that's what a lot of Whitely's work looks like.

A lot of his other things go for more, however. There's some paintings (especially the larger ones he did of his girlfriend, Wendy) that are going for about $150 000 at auctions currently. I could never guess what his massive "America" work would be worth right now (I think it's about 20 panels big). Also very hot on the Australian market now is his "Waves" period when he was influenced by the Ukiyo-e prints from Japan of waves.

Munch's stuff is a little different. Apart from "The Scream", a lot of his works are less well-known. However, it's a kind of work like the Mona Lisa. it has such an impact on people and is so popular and reproduced that it is these things that make it worth so much money- even for an original copy by the artist. When you live in a world of copies, and people know they are copies, originality becomes a thing to be prized and treasured.

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That destroying false idols is consistent with their beliefs and that the destruction of statues (and now that I know about it, people's homes) is IMO a less egregious offense than some of their other human rights abuses, yet the latter got almost no press until 9/11.
But if they were people's homes, destroying the statues was a human rights abuse, whether it was part of their "false idol" beliefs or not.
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adora
When you live in a world of copies, and people know they are copies, originality becomes a thing to be prized and treasured.
Okay fine. Here's an original for you: :P

:thescream::

Quote:
But if they were people's homes, destroying the statues was a human rights abuse, whether it was part of their "false idol" beliefs or not.
But it didn't get press! Consider the couple of us who had no idea those were people's homes. It was all about the statues in the press, at least all the press I was exposed to. Little was made of what heinous people the Taliban were toward people.
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adora
*sighs* Such uncultured peons you lot are! ;)
And then he (or she?) goes on to talk about cash value. Interesting idea of "culture" you've got there. ;)

Why it would disturb me to hear that "The" Scream had been stolen has nothing to do with how much it's worth on the market, it has to do with the loss to the world of a cultural icon/artistic masterpiece.
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Old 08-26-2004, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trendkill
And then he (or she?) goes on to talk about cash value. Interesting idea of "culture" you've got there. ;)
I thought that was pretty funny too. And it's she. :)

Quote:
Why it would disturb me to hear that "The" Scream had been stolen has nothing to do with how much it's worth on the market, it has to do with the loss to the world of a cultural icon/artistic masterpiece.
Honestly I don't think you can separate the two. Isn't the cash value of a work of art directly related to it's perceived worth as an icon?
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Old 08-27-2004, 01:33 AM
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Default Re: Munch's "The Scream" Stolen!

Sorry to burst an idyllic bubble, but cash-value is how culture - especially artistic "high" culture - is dictated. The more money it is worth, the more culturally valuable it is seen to be. We live in a world where sadly, the economic sphere has invaded everything. It would be nice to say that the record companies are bitching about online mp3 distribution because they really give a fuck about the intellectual property rights of their musicians. But we know this isn't true. We know they jump up and down about it because of the potential it has to put them out of business, cut out the parasitic middle-man. We'd like to think you can see a good live performance of Shakespeare cheaply, because it was originally media for the masses. But we know this is also not true. I wanted to see a performance of Hamlet that recently toured here, but the tickets were $300 each, for backrow seats. And yeah, I wish great paintings could be appreciated because they are great paintings without monetary value, but that's not the way it works. What's hot and what's not is not dictated by how talented or how skilled or how well-rendered a piece of artwork it. It's dictated by what people will commision and what they will pay good money for.
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