Claiming vanilla when you aren't at L-1 hurts the town

beyelzu · #1 06-17-2010, 06:43 AM

It adds no information to the town and it limits the pool the scum have to draw from. No one will have reason to believe except maybe the scum. It doesn't help. Only claim as part of mass claim or facing a lynch. L-1 or so.

I made this thread cuz this shit seems to come up alot and I figured we could link back to it. If you would like to continue a nonspecific discussion about it, do so here.

If you want to discuss a current game do so in that thread.

S.Vashti · #2 06-17-2010, 01:08 PM

My puzzlement at this is that claims, honest or not, cannot be taken at simple face value before death. So the point of holding back because it's hurtful really depends on the belief that most claims are honest. And being at L-1 has no bearing on it, since revealing honestly cannot be believed. Believing claims is the spirit of the game. How wrong am I on this?

eta: There is the distinct possibility I am over-analyzing these mafia transactions. I have very little innate normal social interaction skills, nearly everything is from book learning and practice, practice, practice. So I come at the game as a way of practicing these skills.

Sock Puppet · #3 06-17-2010, 01:35 PM

I think it's useful to make a distinction between default-claiming vanilla and hard-claiming. Basically, everybody, whether vanilla town, good special, bad special, or scum, by default calls him/herself vanilla town. Everybody's innocent in Shawshank.

This is different, however, from being in the middle of a game with lots of speculations and accusations flying around, and then saying with finality, "I'm vanilla town, this is my claim." I suspect, Chris, that maybe you were reiterating the default-type claim, but the way you did it made people think you were making the more formal claim. The premature formal claim is bad for the town because it gives information to the scum that they didn't have before. Sure, you could be lying, but in practice the town claim is less likely to be a bluff on the pro-town side. I think.

It's sort of a fine distinction, and I don't know if I've stated it clearly.

(Sorry if this should be in the game thread, I can repost it there if it looks like gameplay.)

Gonzo · #4 06-17-2010, 02:28 PM

Thanks for the strategy guide, bey, but it was in my assumption that late in a game it is best to make a reveal to slim down the players who have not made claims.

Contrapposto · #5 06-17-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

it is best to make a reveal to slim

Why slim? You two speakng in code or using this thread to send "sekret messages"?
I got my eye on you guys... :giggle:

beyelzu · #6 06-17-2010, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Thanks for the strategy guide, bey, but it was in my assumption that late in a game it is best to make a reveal to slim down the players who have not made claims.

this definitely belongs in game thread. We can talk about it there.

I made the thread because this question seems to come up alot.

Crumb · #7 06-17-2010, 04:25 PM

Claiming vanilla is kind of pointless anyway. Since it is the default claim that everyone is toiling under for the entire game it adds no information when you are at L-1. It is basically saying "I am not special, but if I were my claim would go here." Unlikely to stop a lynch.

beyelzu · #8 06-17-2010, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumb

Claiming vanilla is kind of pointless anyway. Since it is the default claim that everyone is toiling under for the entire game it adds no information when you are at L-1. It is basically saying "I am not special, but if I were my claim would go here." Unlikely to stop a lynch.

That is true, but I am pretty sure that I have seen a claim of vanilla back off a lynch here on ff, because of style. It just doesn't help the town. It does help the mafia, hey look guys, that one isn't a special.

Especially when considering the lynch all liars meme.

Gonzo · #9 06-17-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

this definitely belongs in game thread. We can talk about it there.

same for the OP, hotshot

Contrapposto · #10 06-18-2010, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Quote:

this definitely belongs in game thread. We can talk about it there.

same for the OP, hotshot

Exactly.

I didn't see Gonzo's statement to be any more or less appropriate than anything coming before or after in this thread.

beyelzu · #11 06-18-2010, 05:08 AM

This is a placeholder thread for this subject whenever it comes up, on why early claiming is bad. Also it is the place for conversation for and against and is not in reference to this particular game.

beyelzu · #12 06-18-2010, 05:09 AM

The op ain't gameplay, its gametheory.

Now adam is gm of the game and if he thinks the op is game play, I will ask liv to merge the thread or lock it or something.

Contrapposto · #13 06-19-2010, 01:55 AM

These cannot investigate or vig kill (whether they can protect or block still remains to be seen however).

They are vanilla too.
It might not help town but it would certainly help the one making the claim.
Even scum like these. Hell, upon claiming, the scum might even say "screw it, town wins!".
How is this not beneficial for town?