Say Solstice not Xmas

[Beth]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

I don't think so, I think depressed people simply feel more lonely or nostalgic for better times at Christmas.

I also think that seasonal depression may come into play in this area. At least in the North, even here, somewhat. The daylight hours are shortened and the shortened days seem to trigger a depression or melacholy. Then there is the stress of the season. Some people must visit many family members, may have too many gifts to buy and not enough money. Then there are some, as you say who get nostalgic and sometimes people hold very bad memories of Christmas such as a family trauma or perhaps family arguments on the holidays. There are several reasons.

[livius drusus]

Wow, onthedole, you sure do have me pegged wrong. Or at least you did before Clutch pegged me so perfectly right. Anyhoo, I think I'll do a little reading on the history of Christmas and see what comes of it.

[LadyShea]

Good point on the seasonal thing Beth. Do you think if we all stopped celebrating Christmas depression and suicide would decline though?

[Clutch Munny]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Hey, BTW, Clutch, ihows your annual Xmas letter to the family coming?

Proceeding apace, thanks! Expect a posted version soon.


And onthedole, forget what these folks are telling you. I'm a totally hot chick, petite and smouldering like Rachel Weiss from some angles, tall and quirky like Geena Davis from other angles.

Okay, I'm a large-ish lumpy hockey-playing (own-)nad-scratching male. I was only expressing my pretensions to chiefliness with the tent thing. Ale's always on tap, though.

[Beth]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Good point on the seasonal thing Beth. Do you think if we all stopped celebrating Christmas depression and suicide would decline though?

No, not necessarily. I think the Christmas season may be a catalyst in some cases, in others, it may help prevent suicide. I know that Christmas may delay or cause others to think twice about suicide simply because they do not want to leave that kind of Christmas memory. Although, some people are so beyond rationalizing that they do not try to argue themselves out of depression.

Anyway, I think that if a person is that bad off, they may just do themselves in anyway without Christmas being a catalyst. Do I think holiday stresses can contribute? Yes. Most definitely. But every day life can as well.

To me, if people kinda stepped back from the drive to get the perfect gift, no matter what the cost, that would be wonderful. Often, my husband takes plates of our Christmas dinner to his friends in the evenings. Granted it is not a true gift, but it does remind someone that they are cared for and people talk about how we remembered them during the year. Same with the things I bake. When I was a kid, I used to give my mom coupons for extra chores I would do for her. I honestly think the best gift that we can give is to show we care, then if we decide to buy on that premise, shopping and buying and the season may be a little less demanding and easier to bear.

[Godless Dave]

I like Christmas - on December 24 and 25. The rest of this two-month long "holiday" grates on my nerves, but contrary to onthedole's opinion I am mostly able to ignore it. I have been able to find non-Christmas fare on cable TV, I don't go out shopping much anyway, and I haven't listened to commercial radio since I got a CD player in my car. I live alone so there's no pressure to get and decorate a tree. I only have five people to buy gifts for and they're all adults. My sister actually enjoys wrapping gifts so I don't even have to do that. The only stressful part for me is I fly back east to visit family so I have to wait in a crowded, noisy airport for permission to get shoved into the sardine can they call coach class, but that's why airports have bars.

[wei yau]

I enjoy celebrating Christmas as a secular/cultural holiday. Our tree is free of any Christian ornaments. With me being an atheist and my wife being Jewish, it just doesn't feel right.

But, it does feel right to decorate a tree together. It feels right to exchange gifts with friends and family. It feels right to wish one another well.

Perhaps it's because I'm an atheist with no religious upbringing. Perhaps it's because my parents were immigrants. But, to me, Christmas is completely without any religious significance. It's simply a time to celebrate and enjoy the company of people you love.

I don't go looking for trouble when it comes to religion. I don't feel resentful or bitter over the predominance of Christianity in the cultural aspects of society. As an atheist, I find that religion is nearly irrelevant in my personal life. This does not mean I don't feel strongly about those religious issues that do affect me, but that's a different topic.

I find my own meaning in the things I do, celebrating Christmas is no different in that regard.

[Desert Dweller]

the article isn't satisfying...reason...because it deals with a much later time, eg Roman. What we're talking about (Tribalism in Europe) is much earlier. We know of the three great Kurgen invasions into Old Europe ending with the Doric around 4th c BC. These were the outcome of earlier tribal dominance in the north and east...started in the great plains east of the Urals.
So recent explanations don't cut it, we have to go back much further.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by onthedole

the article isn't satisfying...reason...because it deals with a much later time, eg Roman. What we're talking about (Tribalism in Europe) is much earlier. We know of the three great Kurgen invasions into Old Europe ending with the Doric around 4th c BC. These were the outcome of earlier tribal dominance in the north and east...started in the great plains east of the Urals.
So recent explanations don't cut it, we have to go back much further.

Christmas as we know it doesn't go back that far, or at least we have no records of it. That doesn't mean people weren't grateful for the longer days or anything, but maybe they had bonfires and danced naked or something...we have no way of knowing.

[HelenM]

When I was a child I loved the traditions associated with Christmas that my family participated in. Now I'm married with children we have our own family traditions and my children get very excited about them. It's been interesting to me to see how much children love traditions.

I don't see anything wrong with voluntarily adopting and upholding traditions. As long as it's your choice.

Helen

[Beth]

I love the av with your kids, Helen. Very sweet.

[ceptimus]

I don't mind the holiday, and I like some of the traditions.

What grates with me is some sanctimonious prat telling me the 'real meaning of Christmas' (baby jeebus etc.)

Most of the traditions we engage in have nothing to do with Christianity. Where do decorated trees, crackers, tinsel, yule logs, turkeys and the like figure in the Christian story? That's right - they don't.

It's disgraceful, but typical of Christians, that they try to muscle in and take over existing celebrations. So the celebration of the end of the year became Christ's birthday, even though, as far as we know, he wasn't born then. And the coming of spring and celebration of fertility (with eggs etc.) became Easter.

Bloody hypocrites. But I won't let them spoil my celebrations. I tend to call it Yuletide rather than Christmas, when I remember.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by ceptimus

Bloody hypocrites. But I won't let them spoil my celebrations. I tend to call it Yuletide rather than Christmas, when I remember.

I like that....It's probably truer to the actual holiday as it's observed in the modern western world.

And what do sleigh rides, chestnuts roasting on an open fire, gingerbread houses, reindeer and record retail sales have to do with baby jeebus?

Bloody tradition expropriators.

May your Yule be warm and happy.

godfry

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by LadyShea

Christmas as we know it doesn't go back that far, or at least we have no records of it. That doesn't mean people weren't grateful for the longer days or anything, but maybe they had bonfires and danced naked or something...we have no way of knowing.

You're saying there are no records of seasonal festivities on or around the winter solstice in the ancient world? Then how it is we know that the church triumphant expropriated existing pagan holy days wholesale in their attempt to christianize Europe? How is it that we know that modern christmas is founded on other, earlier pagan traditions?

godfry

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

You're saying there are no records of seasonal festivities on or around the winter solstice in the ancient world? Then how it is we know that the church triumphant expropriated existing pagan holy days wholesale in their attempt to christianize Europe? How is it that we know that modern christmas is founded on other, earlier traditions?

godfry

I provided an article that talked about the ancient Roman and Pre-Christianity celebrations where most of our current trappings originated, and onthedole said that wasn't early enough for him.

[Godless Dave]

Most of the Celtic and Germanic peoples didn't keep written records before contact with the Roman civilization; what we know comes from the records of Roman and Greek explorers and from archaeology.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Godless Dave

Most of the Celtic and Germanic peoples didn't keep written records before contact with the Roman civilization; what we know comes from the records of Roman and Greek explorers and from archaeology.

Well... Did or did not the Roman and Greek "explorers" describe observing winter festivities amongst these peoples?

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being. It seems to me that the early Christian church never made any big deal about celebration of the birth of baby Jesus, it was a "christ mass" was it not? A day upon which to attend mass and contemplate upon the mysteries of the christ and his offer of salvation is how I understood it. No gift giving, no carol singing, no tree...none of that.

Have I been misinformed?

godfry

And...wasn't the Doric invasion of Greece before 4th century BCE? I mean, isn't that the century of Alexander of Macedon?

[livius drusus]

Check out this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia, godfry. I found it quite fascinating. It seems Christmas popped up at different times in different ways all over the place.

[dave_a]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being.

I might be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that much of the trappings/customs we see originated around the time of the protestant reformation in their christian versions.

I seem to very vaguely recall some story about Martin Luther and a tree becoming the xmas tree thing

[Godless Dave]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

And...wasn't the Doric invasion of Greece before 4th century BCE? I mean, isn't that the century of Alexander of Macedon?

Not sure how that's relevant to a discussion of Christmas? I was under the impression that most non-Christian xmas traditions come from northern and western Europe, ie Gaul and Germania.

[Beth]

In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis was celebrated on December 25. This was characterized by partying and feasting, along with gift giving, if I am not mistaken.


Also, when Christianity conquered Britain, the Catholic Church had to incorporate the pagan's customs, practices, and symbols into the Catholic holy days in order to make them more acceptable. I think that the Church was rather brilliant in doing that.

[LadyShea]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

I'm kind of curious as to when "Christmas as we know it" came into being. It seems to me that the early Christian church never made any big deal about celebration of the birth of baby Jesus, it was a "christ mass" was it not? A day upon which to attend mass and contemplate upon the mysteries of the christ and his offer of salvation is how I understood it. No gift giving, no carol singing, no tree...none of that.

Have I been misinformed?

Much of it was hijacked from earlier winter observances, like I said this article is a good starting point...short and concise, but there is a mountain of info out there. Google "Pagan origins Christmas"

[HelenM]

Originally Posted by Beth

I love the av with your kids, Helen. Very sweet.

Thanks, Beth

Helen