a Christian says, "come & see what I believe"...

[Listener]

Sorry - i didn't mean to hi-jack the thread

[S.Vashti]

"... she might worry for me.."

There may possibly be a way to ameliorate that. Both my parents are Christians, and they know I'm an atheist. How do they reconcile what is "to be my fate" if I don't convert? Their answer is that their god is in control, and capable; and will make the judgment, there is nothing more they can do but hold an invitation open if I ever become interested (not as if either goes to church, they find church to be ... problematic). Try to point out to your friend that she worships an all-powerful god that is fully capable of making the decisions on who to save or who to abandon, and it may set her mind at ease about the issue.

[freemonkey]

Originally Posted by Listener

Sorry - i didn't mean to hi-jack the thread

You didn't hijack anything.


SO.... I've agreed to listen to the seminar online at their website (you can all join me if you want to. ) and to tell her what I think, what my objections are & what I like about it.

Told her I can't help but go in with preconceived notions (but I'd try to be objective) because I simply do not believe in gods or Jesus or the bible, or any of it. I also asked her to tell me (in her own words) what makes her faith different than others.

[Doohickie]

Our church is doing a series called "The God Questions". I think it would be pretty entertaining to get someone like Freemonkey in there and make the minister squirm. But if you come, don't let on you know me, okay?

[freemonkey]

Originally Posted by Doohickie

Our church is doing a series called "The God Questions". I think it would be pretty entertaining to get someone like Freemonkey in there and make the minister squirm. But if you come, don't let on you know me, okay?

Nah, not me. I'd be entertained by the likes of both Iacchus & Doctor X, though.

[Garnet]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Does that mean you're an atheist who isn't supposed to dance?

Or drink. Or cuss.


I'm so fucked.

[Doohickie]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Still, when I suggested that I might want to cross-examine the priest about the homily...he stopped inviting me.

Hell, I do that. And I'm a member in good standing and ordained elder. I've also told our pastor that he's too vanilla and afraid to tackle the more challenging issues (such as gay marriage, persecution of gays, and the like).

Originally Posted by Brimshack

Bertrand Russell once wrote an article where he described how many atheists carry the stamp of their former faith, so that there were Protestant atheists and Catholic atheists, each behaving differently in various respects.

Oh, I see that quite clearly on BeliefNet. You can tell the former fundies; they feel like if they can prove a rabbit chews its cud they've entirely discredited Christianity as a whole.

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

Yeah...From anecdotal evidence only, I'd say that prots, when they lose the faith, they tend to be outspoken atheists. Whereas, Catholics...or for that matter, Eastern Orthodox, when they lose faith, they just sorta...lapse.

What about me? I slid from Catholicism to Presbyterianism... I tell people I'm a "Recovering Catholic".

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Garnet

Or drink. Or cuss.


I'm so fucked.

But never standing up.

That's too much like dancing.

[Doctor X]

Remains one of my favorite lines:

Eve: We can't get married! He's Jewish and I'm Christian Scientist.

Adam: Christian Scientist?!! You're the AMA POSTER CHILD!!

Eve: I'm a Reformed Christian Scientist.

--Northern Exposure

There is also, I am sure, a desire to "support the old firm."

To take this seriously for a moment, what do you expect to accomplish? You can listen to the seminar--post the details--and a number of posters--such as My Humble MagNIfIcence--can pick them apart, tell you to "ask her this and that," blah . . . blah.

To what end? Has she listened to you before? No, she has not. Has she ever read a book recommended by you? Has she joined a forum to discuss these issues rationally?

My prediction is that the Tigers are over-rated and any objection will be spun as "he's closed minded."

So, what do you hope to accomplish?

--J.D.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Doohickie

What about me? I slid from Catholicism to Presbyterianism... I tell people I'm a "Recovering Catholic".

Wow...You lost a lot of fripperies in that transition.

[freemonkey]

Good question. I don't know what I hope to accomplish. It can't be simply to get her to stop, or I would just tell her to. Maybe I'm trying to be understood by my friend? Because you're right, we've never really discussed it all that much, not from my position, anyway. She's always busy, I'm always busy....

She's read a book or two recommended by me, but not on this topic.

[Doctor X]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Good question. I don't know what I hope to accomplish. It can't be simply to get her to stop, or I would just tell her to.

Psychoanalysis over Al Gore's Interwebs [Available in HD and Blue-Ray.--Ed.] is fraught with great . . . great . . . mistake things. Having conceded that perhaps you hope to deprogram her? Perhaps it is entertainment value?

Methinks you need to clarify for yourself what your motivations are.

--J.D.

[freemonkey]

No, not for entertainment, I wouldn't want to use her in that way. Deprogram? Its true, I do feel she is over-involved with this group (and some of the other stuff she believes), but that's really not my business.

The biggest issue for me is when she starts trying to influence me in some way with it, like the invite to this seminar. Maybe I'm trying to fit my response to her tactics?

[Doctor X]

Well, if you do not like the tactics, why not simply make her stop? You suggest above that you do not want her to stop, so there must be some reason you are encouraging her, in a way, to continue.

--J.D.

[maddog]

Personally, I would recommend against going. It lulls the proselytizer into a false sense that they are making progress with you, when (speaking for myself) I just want to be LEFT ALONE about my conscientiously held values/positions. I expect reciprocity from my friends: I don't bother YOU, and you don't bother ME. It's called respect. If you don't set your boundaries now, you are teaching your friend that it's OK for her to violate your boundaries.

#1602

[Doctor X]

Indeed.

--J.D.

[freemonkey]

Originally Posted by Doctor X

You suggest above that you do not want her to stop

Where do I suggest that? I may have been too "gentle" with her, I suppose, but I have not been asking for it.

Is it possible that she misunderstands "I don't believe in god/s" means "I'm confused/angry/lost"? I think that's what she thinks and is trying to help. Maybe I'm trying to explain it better? But no, I'm not asking for her to continue dangling her "bait", as it were.

[Crumb]

Originally Posted by Doohickie

Our church is doing a series called "The God Questions". I think it would be pretty entertaining to get someone like Freemonkey in there and make the minister squirm. But if you come, don't let on you know me, okay?

You need the Friendly Atheist for that. He does that sort of thing a lot.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Where did you get that? I've heard that before but know of no biblical support for the idea that anyone in Heaven gets to see or even know of the souls being barbecued. They're too busy playing harps up in the fluffy clouds.

I suspect that the notion has its origin in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:19-31
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who longed to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. 24He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' 25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. 26Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.' 27He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house-- 28for I have five brothers--that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' 29Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' 30He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

However, you will note that the text says nothing about Lazarus being able to see the rich man suffering torments in Hell, much less enjoying being a witness to them. Abraham can see, and speak to, the rich man, but there is no suggestion that Abraham derives any enjoyment from seeing his suffering. In any case, it is a parable, which is to say that it is not meant to be understood literally.

[Corona688]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

I have a few Christian friends that don't relish the idea of me roasting in Hell, but they believe I'm going to if I don't believe in Jesus.

That's the bit that always gets me. The combination of a just, loving god that sends people to hell. For them to believe it, it means they think I deserve that. Hardly friendly at all when you think about it.

[Doctor X]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Where do I suggest that? I may have been too "gentle" with her, I suppose, but I have not been asking for it.

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Good question. I don't know what I hope to accomplish. It can't be simply to get her to stop, or I would just tell her to.

Is it possible that she misunderstands "I don't believe in god/s" means "I'm confused/angry/lost"?

Yes, it is possible. The default position for the religious is that the supernatural exists. For you to disagree means, to them, you just have not thought about it "deeply" or whathaveyou.

Maybe I'm trying to explain it better? But no, I'm not asking for her to continue dangling her "bait", as it were.

Then if you do want her to stop, you need to firmly let her know you consider her behavior disrespectful and personally insulting.

--J.D.

[freemonkey]

[quote=Doctor X;520340]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Where do I suggest that? I may have been too "gentle" with her, I suppose, but I have not been asking for it.

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Good question. I don't know what I hope to accomplish. It can't be simply to get her to stop, or I would just tell her to.

I guess I wasn't making much sense there, was I?

Originally Posted by Doctor X

Then if you do want her to stop, you need to firmly let her know you consider her behavior disrespectful and personally insulting.

I can be such a wuss, I always feel like I'm the one doing the insulting. And I've been telling my husband "I'm not gonna be so nice and politically correct anymore when it comes to this shit!! I'm gonna speak out from now on!" Me, acting all tough and that.

[Doctor X]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

I can be such a wuss, I always feel like I'm the one doing the insulting. And I've been telling my husband "I'm not gonna be so nice and politically correct anymore when it comes to this shit!! I'm gonna speak out from now on!" Me, acting all tough and that.

Send her this:

You know I respect you as a friend. I hope you respect me. When you keep trying to force your religion on me, it is very insulting and disrespectful to me.

Short. Sweet.

--J.D.

[wildernesse]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

As I thought. But I figured it best to ask, to be sure. I didn't want to just go off saying something like, "I already know what you believe". She has made claims that her beliefs are different, "not religious", not "churchy", so maybe she thinks her beliefs are radically different as well. Maybe she thinks its simply dogma and churchiness that I object to.

There is a strange idea out there that huge numbers of people are kept from the Lord because they don't want to have to wear something other than blue jeans on Sunday. Or are allergic to stained glass. If we could only make churches like movie theaters, then people would convert in droves! No more pipe organs!

I'm not a huge fan of this idea. People who love their neighbors where they are in life and for who they are, no matter what, don't need to meet in a non-church building and wear shorts to church.

I would not go to your friend's seminars, because I predict that they are incredibly boring and Chick-tract equivalents. The titles pretty much give that away. I would tell her that religion is no longer a topic of conversation you are willing to discuss with her (as if she has been participating in a discussion at this point anyway), and then stop the conversation/visit if the conversation turns that way. I'm a Christian and the only people I put up with religious invitations from are my grandparents, and that is because they are my grandparents. (I don't go to the right kind of church.)

[Dragar]

Originally Posted by freemonkey

Is it possible that she misunderstands "I don't believe in god/s" means "I'm confused/angry/lost"? I think that's what she thinks and is trying to help. Maybe I'm trying to explain it better? But no, I'm not asking for her to continue dangling her "bait", as it were.

This is certainly a possibility (I won't speculate on the likelihood). If you really believe this is the case, maybe you should write a short letter back explaining the essentials behind how you reached your position, e.g.

• Believing things exist without a reason is crazy
• I have no reasons to believe in the existence of a god, despite researching the subject carefully.
• I am not crazy.

I hasten to add that's an example. But clarification that you're not just angry/resentful/rebellious and are instead thoughtful, rational and simply short-changed by the evidence may go further if she really is confused.