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Old 01-20-2017, 12:30 AM
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The contrast between Obama and Bush on the Middle East was not nearly as large as it should have been. But he was still better
No. He was not. Absolutely not. At all. Literally the only good thing he did was not veto another resolution on the settlements. Guantanamo Bay is still open. All the wars Bush started are still going on. Insane Jihadis in Syria have been heavily armed and now there's a very nasty civil war there. Saudi Arabia has been given a free hand to bomb Yemen back to the Stone Age. The Middle East is off way worse than before Obama.
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  #652  
Old 01-20-2017, 12:34 AM
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In Syria news, more bizarre murders of jihadis:

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According to circulating reports, 9 ISIS terrorists were sedated and killed in Deir Ezzour, specifically, in the town of Halta. It is unknown who carried out these killings, but it has been speculated that anti-ISIS popular resistance forces were the perpetrators.
9 ISIS militants sedated and killed in Halta, Deir Ezzour

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The attackers first made all the 9 members of the group unconscious and then killed them.

The source said that popular forces and some of the secret groups have revolted against ISIL after the terrorist group executed and beheaded civilians.

People in Southeastern Deir Ezzur intensified protests against ISIL on Wednesday, and engaged in street battles with them in two towns along the Euphrates River.

People in the towns of al-Mayadeen and al-Ashareh stormed several ISIL centers and set fire on them.
Entire Members of ISIL Group Killed by Unknown Assailants in Deir Ezzur
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  #653  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: News Miscellany

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
The contrast between Obama and Bush on the Middle East was not nearly as large as it should have been. But he was still better
No. He was not. Absolutely not. At all. Literally the only good thing he did was not veto another resolution on the settlements. Guantanamo Bay is still open. All the wars Bush started are still going on. Insane Jihadis in Syria have been heavily armed and now there's a very nasty civil war there. Saudi Arabia has been given a free hand to bomb Yemen back to the Stone Age. The Middle East is off way worse than before Obama.
The bolded statement is not the same claim as Obama was worse than Bush. America doesn't control the entire world. Sometimes things get worse and it's not all our fault. Certainly we have responsibility for a lot going on the Middle East. But just because it got worse doesn't mean that Obama was worse than Bush. Particularly given how many of the shitty things happening there have roots in actions taken by Bush.

The US Congress voted against closing Guantanamo (including Bernie Sanders). Maybe Obama could've expended more capital on ending it. I don't know. It also may not have succeeded and it would've had trade-offs (not merely regarding domestic politics).

Bush's wars not being completely over does not make him worse than Bush. And you know, starting the war would seem to be worse to me. I dunno, it just seems like invading Iraq and Afghanistan is far worse than anything Obama did in the Middle East.

Syria is a shitshow, but it's not clear to me how exactly Obama could've prevented that. He did get Assad to give up Syria's chemical weapons (it may not have been a complete success, but it seems it got rid of most of them). They may have tried to arm "moderates" and ended up arming extremists... But the US is not the only actor there, and some of them prefer the extremists. I don't agree with everything they've done there, but Syria is not all America's fault.

The Iran deal also seems like a pretty good thing. By contrast, I recall his opponent jokingly singing "Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran." I recall Republicans calling him weak, urging steps that would've led to war and actively undermining him while that deal was being worked out.

You think it would've been better to have kept Bush on? The same? He would've stopped Saudi Arabia from doing anything? The guy who held hands with and kissed Saudi princes?

My boss is Tunisian, my coworker is Iranian, my former roommate is Bengali, and one of my former and one of my current roommates is Palestinian. None of them are indifferent to the contrasts between Bush, Obama, Trump and Clinton the way you seem to be.
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  #654  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:18 AM
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No, because there is a difference in the US. Of course Muslims will be off worse inside the US under Trump. Outside the US it won't make any difference whatsoever.

As for Clinton, she would have been even worse than Obama.

There's another reason why Trump may be even better in the end though, which is not so much about Trump/Bush or Clinton/Obama but about the rest of the world and the US. Under Bush there was a large anti-war movement in the US and in Europe, which disappeared under Obama, even though things were not improving. At. All.

Trump is going to isolate the US more than Bush already did, which forces the EU to take action of its own. That may end up harming Israel more than Trump helps them.

Quote:
Syria is a shitshow, but it's not clear to me how exactly Obama could've prevented that. He did get Assad to give up Syria's chemical weapons (it may not have been a complete success, but it seems it got rid of most of them). They may have tried to arm "moderates" and ended up arming extremists... But the US is not the only actor there, and some of them prefer the extremists. I don't agree with everything they've done there, but Syria is not all America's fault.
I didn't say it is. It's mostly been Saudis, Qataris and Turks arming the 'rebels'. SA and Qatar are both ruled by wahabi nutbags and the Turkish government is islamist too, so the results were predictable. But the US has been delivering weapons to 'moderates' knowing full well that al-Qaeda was taking over half those weapons from them. And it's only in the last couple of months that the US has been actively attacking al-Qaeda.
I don't think there is any conclusive proof that the Syrian gov't used chemical weapons. There have been accusations flying around all over the place, everyone except the Kurds has been accused of using them, with no real evidence on who was responsible.

As for Yemen, I do think the US could have reined in the Saudis. But the rest of the world doesn't seem to give much of a crap either.
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  #655  
Old 01-20-2017, 01:55 AM
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You know Clinton was way worse for the Palestinians than Bush 1. Bush 1 made more of an effort to be neutral than any president since Carter.

Clinton stabbed them in the back at Camp David.
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  #656  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:18 AM
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No, because there is a difference in the US. Of course Muslims will be off worse inside the US under Trump. Outside the US it won't make any difference whatsoever.
The Middle Eastern ones have plenty relatives in the Middle East, but ok. And I think taking in more refugees could've made a difference to some people outside the US. Although I guess they would be converted into Americans after they arrive.

You seem to think that Trump's blatant anti-Muslim bigotry and the actions he takes against US Muslims won't bleed over into US foreign policy. It's like how you or davidm were touting his claims to be "neutral" between Israel and Palestine like they meant something. How's that working out regarding his selection for US ambassador to Israel?

And of course, US public opinion of Muslims probably has some connection to US foreign policy. It's short-sighted to act like treatment of Muslim-Americans won't have implications for US treatment of Muslim countries, IMO.

"No difference whatsoever"... we'll see. I think you're underestimating how bad Trump could be. I don't think him firing a nuke is an implausible scenario. I'd bet that would isolate the US internationally though, so maybe you'd think of it as a good thing.
Quote:
As for Clinton, she would have been even worse than Obama.
I agree that she would've been worse. I do think that plenty of the rhetoric about her foreign policy was exaggerated, however.
Quote:
There's another reason why Trump may be even better in the end though, which is not so much about Trump/Bush or Clinton/Obama but about the rest of the world and the US. Under Bush there was a large anti-war movement in the US and in Europe, which disappeared under Obama, even though things were not improving. At. All.
Right, so under Trump there will be a movement which will reflect sincere anti-war beliefs, and when things improve a bit because of changes in government, they won't just wither away again?

This isn't so much a "good thing" as it is the revelation of the shallowness of support for your cause. If you're relying on the unpopularity of the American president for your anti-war movement, it's probably not going to achieve much of anything permanent, and maybe not that much temporary either.
Quote:
Quote:
Syria is a shitshow, but it's not clear to me how exactly Obama could've prevented that. [...] Syria is not all America's fault.
I didn't say it is.
You gave it as evidence of Obama being just as bad or worse than Bush. I mean, yeah you didn't say "all". But it must be significantly Obama's fault if it's going to count for much vs. Bush being the primary actor in starting the Iraq War.
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As for Yemen, I do think the US could have reined in the Saudis. But the rest of the world doesn't seem to give much of a crap either.
Right, so worse than Bush I guess.
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  #657  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:31 AM
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The biggest known player involved in Yemen is Saudi Arabia, who has been carrying out its military campaign with arms brought from the US and Britain. In December, the US announced it would be halting an arms deal worth $350 million to the Kingdom amid concerns of the coalition's indiscriminate bombing inside the country. But up until that point, President Obama had reportedly sold arms to the tune of $115 billion (107 billion euros) to Riyadh during his eight years in office - more than any US administration in history.
Yemen conflict all but ignored by the West | Middle East | DW.COM | 17.01.2017
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  #658  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:36 AM
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Texas lawmaker sends letter to "Islamic Leaders" surveying their beliefs | The Texas Tribune

Here we go!
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  #659  
Old 01-20-2017, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
You seem to think that Trump's blatant anti-Muslim bigotry and the actions he takes against US Muslims won't bleed over into US foreign policy. It's like how you or davidm were touting his claims to be "neutral" between Israel and Palestine like they meant something. How's that working out regarding his selection for US ambassador to Israel?
Like I said, sometimes that blatant scumbaggery is needed to alert the world how fucking bad it is. Obama killed people with a smile, Bush did it with a snicker that pissed off the world.

There really isn't much left that Trump could even do, short of actually starting WW3, that would be worse than what is already happening. And the world already hates his guts, so he won't get away with what Obama did get away with.

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
As for Clinton, she would have been even worse than Obama.
I agree that she would've been worse. I do think that plenty of the rhetoric about her foreign policy was exaggerated, however.[/quote]
I don't. Not by much anyway.

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Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Quote:
There's another reason why Trump may be even better in the end though, which is not so much about Trump/Bush or Clinton/Obama but about the rest of the world and the US. Under Bush there was a large anti-war movement in the US and in Europe, which disappeared under Obama, even though things were not improving. At. All.
Right, so under Trump there will be a movement which will reflect sincere anti-war beliefs, and when things improve a bit because of changes in government, they won't just wither away again?
Yes of course they will. Because liberals in the US are fucking hypocrites who think Democratic bombs are better than Republican bombs.

As for Yemen, see above.
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  #660  
Old 01-20-2017, 06:43 AM
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Trump team prepares dramatic cuts | TheHill

Of note:

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The Corporation for Public Broadcasting would be privatized, while the National Endowment for the Arts and National Endowment for the Humanities would be eliminated entirely.
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  #661  
Old 01-20-2017, 07:40 PM
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Palestinian truck driver kills 4 soldiers in legitimate act of resistance. Is shot on scene in an illegitimate act of murder. Guess who they'll call terrorists in this scenario...

Palestinian Driver Rams Truck Into Israeli Troops, Killing 4
Oh hey, guess what: there never was an attack at all. Just soldiers murdering a driver which caused him to lose control of the truck.

WATCH: Visual analysis undermines police version of events in Umm el-Hiran | +972 Magazine
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  #662  
Old 01-21-2017, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: News Miscellany

Just noticed this...
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Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Outside the US [Trump being president] won't make any difference whatsoever.
Quote:
As for Clinton, she would have been even worse than Obama.
:chin:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watser? View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by erimir View Post
Right, so under Trump there will be a movement which will reflect sincere anti-war beliefs, and when things improve a bit because of changes in government, they won't just wither away again?
Yes of course they will. Because liberals in the US are fucking hypocrites who think Democratic bombs are better than Republican bombs.
"Because liberals in the US people are fucking hypocrites"

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  #663  
Old 01-21-2017, 04:26 AM
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Dennis Hastert Wants Sex-Abuse Accuser to Return Hush Money - NBC News

Christ, what an asshole. (h/t New Yorker caption thing)
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  #664  
Old 01-21-2017, 07:32 AM
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Police Taser their own race relations adviser in Bristol | UK news | The Guardian

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  #665  
Old 01-22-2017, 03:44 AM
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'Unknown gunmen' strike ISIS in Iraq now:

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An infamous Saudi senior leader of ISIS known as “Abu Abdulrahman” was taken out by unknown gunmen in west Mosul in northern Iraq, according to a security source.
ISIS terrorist who executed women was terminated by unknown gunmen
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  #666  
Old 01-22-2017, 04:47 AM
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'Unknown gunmen' strike ISIS in Iraq now:

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An infamous Saudi senior leader of ISIS known as “Abu Abdulrahman” was taken out by unknown gunmen in west Mosul in northern Iraq, according to a security source.
ISIS terrorist who executed women was terminated by unknown gunmen

That's code for these guys
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  #667  
Old 01-24-2017, 12:43 AM
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South Dakota lawmakers declare state of ’emergency’ to force repeal of voter-imposed ethics law

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  #668  
Old 01-24-2017, 03:46 AM
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Republicans pass sweeping bill to reform 'abusive' U.S. regulation

But that's okay, I'm sure y'all have the Freedom to test your own beef for mad cow, and chicken for avian flu.
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  #669  
Old 01-24-2017, 04:52 AM
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Prediction, either a bunch of people end up dying or we find out top companies colluded to rip us off and the people wonder why there are no regularions. Why? Because that's what happens every single time we deregulate something.
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  #670  
Old 01-24-2017, 12:10 PM
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Prediction, either a bunch of people end up dying or we find out top companies colluded to rip us off and the people wonder why there are no regularions. Why? Because that's what happens every single time we deregulate something.
Prediction 2: most 'Mericans will still think big companies are good things. And regulations hold everyone back.

Prediction 3: the administration will blame the previous administration for deregulation-related deaths. And/or the judiciary, if it still has any independence. And/or the international community. After all, the ANC has been blaming apartheid for everything for 23 years.
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  #671  
Old 01-24-2017, 11:20 PM
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Badass with no fucks left to give Tweets from Badlands National Park, because fuck alternative facts

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  #672  
Old 01-25-2017, 01:50 AM
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As battle for Deir e-Zor city rages, Islamic State destroys last civilian hospital in regime-controlled territory - Syria Direct

Hey, remember when the newspapers announced every other day that the last hospital in Aleppo* had been destroyed? Anybody hear anything about this?

*Meaning exclusively East Aleppo which had about 80,000 inhabitants in the end and never West Aleppo which had about a million.
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  #673  
Old 01-25-2017, 03:13 AM
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Good news (well, comparatively) is the Syrian regime/gov't army is making progress in connecting the airport to the town again:

Syrian Army advances west of Deir Ezzor Airport
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  #674  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:27 PM
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Meanwhile in another part of the world.


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  #675  
Old 01-25-2017, 09:31 PM
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And in Russia:

Russian Parliament Backs Plan To Decriminalize Domestic Violence - BuzzFeed News
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