Autism, Asperger's, ASD, and maybe people who are just annoying.

[JoeP]

Originally Posted by Farren

Poetry to delight the ears with elaborate rhythm and musical words in a noisy jazz bar while making its political or social point clear. That culminated in performing one night between the sets of some of SA's jazz giants: Hugh Masakela and Dorothy Masuka, which was fantastic.

Cool, Farren. Very cool.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Farren

Seebs, something that's always fascinated me... what do you think about the fact that an extraordinarily high number of software engineers seem to exhibit symptoms of Aspergers?

I suspect it's mostly selection bias.

Look at it this way -- I suck at a whole lot of the skills that are essential for most office work. But, on the other hand, nearly everyone else sucks at computer-like-things compared to me.

Having a brain which is naturally well-suited to analysis, turning complicated things into patterns, and thinking things through with intense focus, makes computer industry very tempting.

I can't help wondering whether, like schizophrenia (which a large proportion of very creative people exhibit) its as much a blessing as a curse. That the apparent increase in ASDs is, in fact, an adaptive response of some kind to an increasingly technological society.

I suspect, given the information available, that there's no increase in frequency of reality, only in frequency of naming. Why was Asperger's never diagnosed in the US in the 1970s? Because the paper describing it hadn't been translated into English.

I don't think schizophrenia, in general, is "as much a blessing as a curse". I think for most people it's crippling with little return. But... mild schizophrenia can be very useful. I think it's important to remember that "autism" is a category that includes people who cannot learn to feed themselves -- that's not a blessing, in general.

I don't have well-formed thoughts on this but it strikes me that a lot of that feely stuff demands patterns that are antithetical, or at least orthogonal, to the mental patterns best suited to programming.

There's a lot of room for adaptation. I think a lot of autistic people in the past might have done things like go to a monastary and scribe things -- work which allows you to have simple social rules, not be expected to respect most of the world's power structures, and basically focus on your work in a quiet and regular environment.

I think the big shift is that it's now starting to be understood as a category of difference. I think it may be best to view it as like having blood cells that are resistant to malaria -- it's a very good survival trait up to a point, but it's not impossible for it to go a bit too far and become crippling. The level of brain weirdness I have is such that, had we known what it was and been able to give me some education about managing it when I was a kid, it would have been almost certainly a pure advantage pretty much all along.

[Pinecone]

In an odd turn of events mild autistics are actually creating a world inwhich they are no longer as 'magical' or 'awe inspiring' as they were in the past.

An artist or sculptor that could replicate the world in paint and rock with the finest detail are easily replaced with art programs, cameras and 3D technology. Photographic memories resulting in 'story tellers' replaced by scribes, replaced by mass produced books. Even bookkeepers have been replaced by software. etc.

With the very power of their focused minds they are making themselves into a sideshow.
Yet who among us would stop. It's the love of the puzzle that drives us, not the people who love the results.

[Goliath]

I may not have the ass burgers, but I have the burger ass...

[seebs]

I dunno, Goliath, you always struck me as sorta aspieish. Very low level of concern with social things except insofar as you find it stressful that sometimes people react to you in ways that you don't like and do so for reasons that don't make any sense. Strong emphasis on reasoning as a basis for decisions.

[LadyShea]

I found this when researching sarcasm and perception of sarcasm, and thought it may fit here

...magnetic resonance scans revealed that the part of the brain lost among those who failed to perceive sarcasm was not in the left hemisphere of the brain, which specializes in language and social interactions, but in a part of the right hemisphere previously identified as important only to detecting contextual background changes in visual tests....The right parahippocampal gyrus must be involved in detecting more than just visual context — it perceives social context as well....The discovery fits with an increasingly nuanced view of the right hemisphere’s role...The left hemisphere does language in the narrow sense, understanding of individual words and sentences...But it’s now thought that the appreciation of humor and language that is not literal, puns and jokes, requires the right hemisphere.

[Kevlar]

Ok, I've been meaning to weigh in here. Autism runs in my mom's side on the family. Her dad was high functioning, my mom is high functioning, her sister couldn't live on her own until she was 50, and my older brother is mid-functioning AND has klinefelter's syndrome. Now, I've always thought I was high-functioning too, but for me it comes and goes... so I don't know whether it is a learned behavior (see previous family history) or the actual thing.

I just got in another argument with my brother today, but we have never had a single conversation that didn't end that way. He is so fucking frustrating with the transferrence and fantasies and sometimes outright violence. He has never gotten over me being born and brings that up frequently. He sent me some right-wing e-mail, and I told him to quit sending me that bullshit. Then he wrote a LONG email back telling how he never liked me, and how immature I was, and how I just hate my family and am running from the truth.

My relationship with my mom isn't much better, as the deviation from reality is often too unsettling for me. They've wrapped it all up in evangelical christianity, so that makes it all that much harder. It's hard for me to tell sometimes whether she is a habiual liar or really believes the things she says.

This all made me a really popular kid when I was young... in the wrong way. My brother was one year ahead of me in school, and was a total nightmare for his teachers. Then when I'd get to the next grade, the teacher would be like "so your HIS brother", and look at me crossly... but after a few weeks they would be relieved and say things like "I can't believe you are actually related to HIM". My mom seriously creeped them out too but I was a good student and didn't need intervention from her (like my brother did on a daily basis).

So I grew up being the "normal" one in all outsider's eyes. People still can't believe I'm actually related to them (my dad excluded) because they are so different. People to this day ask me if my brother is retarted, and why is my mom so frigid and odd. It's been very difficult to answer these questions over the years... sometimes I just wish my family was normal.

[Naru]

Originally Posted by Kevlar

People still can't believe I'm actually related to them (my dad excluded) because they are so different. People to this day ask me if my brother is retarted, and why is my mom so frigid and odd.

[Kevlar]

Just in case anybody is wondering... it is NEVER appropriate to ask someone if their brother is retarted! In all seriousness, you would be surprised how many people have blurted that out.

How the fuck do you answer that question? "Yes, he is retarted! Thanks for asking!"

[Dingfod]

"No, you are!"

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Kevlar

It's been very difficult to answer these questions over the years... sometimes I just wish my family was normal.

Y'know, Kev...I think everybody must ask that at times. I know I sure did. The thing is, as I've grown older, I've come to the realization that NO family is normal. ALL families are dysfunctional in some way, shape, or form.

My mother was a chronic depressive, later a chronic manic-depressive. She was never diagnosed at 'borderline'. She would have bouts of severe clinical depression where she would withdraw and become mostly uncommunicative. I don't think she was ever involuntarily committed, but she was talked into voluntary commitment more times than I can remember. I'd say that about half the time we spent together on this planet, she was institutionalized in one mental hospital or another. Since she had her onset prior to the "we've decided you're weird and we're putting you on meds" time, she instead got the joy of incarceration and electro-convulsive therapy more times than I can remember...and she lost most of her memories. I had all too many confrontations with my mother which no child should have with their mother...no matter their age.

Oh...the "we've decided you're weird and we're putting you on meds" time helped her more than any other aspect of care provided her. The problem was that, in situations of climatic heat waves, her electrolyte balances would go off and she'd be headed for another hospitalization...but they got much shorter once they were just titrating for the right mix.

So...seebs...what's your armchair diagnosis of me?

[Kevlar]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

The thing is, as I've grown older, I've come to the realization that NO family is normal. ALL families are dysfunctional in some way, shape, or form.

True that.

[Plant Woman]

I am totally lost in this conversation.

[Qingdai]

I believe I have to be tarted first, before I can be retarted.

Individual results may vary....

[godfry n. glad]

I have no idea whether I suffer from Ass Burgers or not. I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure I'm not retarted, though. I had a tart once...or should I say, she had me. Several times.

So I could be retarted.

[seebs]

godfry, I have no clue. You strike me as "normal" (except fairly bright and well-read). But then, a lot of people do.

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by Plant Woman

I am totally lost in this conversation.

Yeah? Is that good, bad, indifferent or Planet X?

[godfry n. glad]

Originally Posted by seebs

godfry, I have no clue. You strike me as "normal" (except fairly bright and well-read). But then, a lot of people do.

I don't know as that's good.

Most folks I know, and are willing to tell me, don't use the word 'normal'.

But, yeah. Other than a tendency towards bluntness, being opinionated, an ingrained lack of immediate respect for authority, and a short temper exacerbated by grief...I'm normal.

I'm still not sure how I would recognize a high-functioning autistic person, were I to meet one in person. (Maybe that's just as well?) What kinds of clues would a 'normal' person like me look for, what kinds of expectations might we have, and what can we do to reduce unnecessary conflict and smooth the interaction?

[Goliath]

Originally Posted by seebs

I dunno, Goliath, you always struck me as sorta aspieish. Very low level of concern with social things except insofar as you find it stressful that sometimes people react to you in ways that you don't like and do so for reasons that don't make any sense. Strong emphasis on reasoning as a basis for decisions.

Well, my therapist never seemed to bring anything up about Asperger's, and she didn't deem it necessary to test me for it. PTSD, on the other hand...

[seebs]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Well, my therapist never seemed to bring anything up about Asperger's, and she didn't deem it necessary to test me for it. PTSD, on the other hand...

The first shrink I saw waved the notion off. Turns out he didn't know jack shit about autism.

[Demimonde]

I've been meaning to chime in on the "other people who are just annoying" aspect. I see some of the outward signs of autism in myself, however, the processing is totally different for me. I recently took the Myers-Briggs Inventory, and was classified as an INTP, (introverted, intuitive, thinking, perceiving.)

I do go on 'freaks' as they called it in the sixties. I find a subject and am intensely focused on understanding it. For me though it is a fad, as soon as I understand a subject, it is discarded like a child's toy on stairs. This leads me to have a superficial knowledge about many topics, that I may never even attempt to practice. It's weird.

On the social scale, I am very interverted, and have inverted thinking. So I kinda have a tendency to live inside my head, and behave in a way very similar to aspies. The main difference is that I have extraverted Feeling. So I am hyperaware of the feelings of others, while I may not be aware of my own feelings. As an example, the other day we went to an Arts Festival that was really crowded. My man ran into an artist friend as we were walking around the Kinetic sculpture area. They crammed them in tight this year, so there was very little room for walkways between the bronzes and whirlygigs. Mano and artist guy start chatting away, but I was consumed by the crowds of people around us. We were blocking the path, and each person who was having to squeeze around us was annoyed. Each passer's annoyance was, for me, like a series of rabbit punches. I was also hyperaware of my husband's concern, and the artist feeling rebuked as I had to excuse myself and withdraw to a side street to disconnect. Other people's feelings overwhelm me, I'm like a pychic sponge.

But when it comes to relationships, my lack of familiarity with my own emotions causes me to be withdrawn and disconnected. In superficial relationships with acquaintances, I am in turns withdrawn if the person sets off my intuition alarm bells, or chameleon like in my ability to mirror them and be perfectly charming and amiable. But even the mirroring behavior is a way to remain detached and observing.

The intraverted Thinking and extraverted Feeling keeps me caught in a duality which is hard to describe I guess.

ETA I guess the main difference in the social thing is that I am a starer. I look intensely into people's eyes when I talk to them, which is the polar opposite of aspies. I can intimidate people if I'm not careful.

[seebs]

Originally Posted by godfry n. glad

I'm still not sure how I would recognize a high-functioning autistic person, were I to meet one in person. (Maybe that's just as well?) What kinds of clues would a 'normal' person like me look for, what kinds of expectations might we have, and what can we do to reduce unnecessary conflict and smooth the interaction?

Good question.

I recently had a conversation with someone about a frustrating coworker -- who had a lot of aspiesh traits. For instance, he sorta offended people by treating them the way they treated each other, but he was a temporary intern-type worker, and they'd been working together for years. I woulda done that too -- in fact I did, but I got away with it 'cuz I carefully present as affable-but-clueless.

More severe cases: Visible discomfort with things like shaking hands, lack of eye contact or intense staring, possibly bits of both. Massive failure to perceive humor that's cued by intonation of presentation, but pretty good at puns most of the time. Asks rude questions, says rude things, and so on. Lack of "common sense". Difficulty modulating voice appropriately, flat intonation. Poor response to social cues or guestures.

Something that seems to be a pretty good test: While talking to someone, and while they're looking at you, look past them intently for a couple of seconds. If they instantly flick their eyes that way, or turn to look, that suggests that they have normal instincts. If they don't, that's pretty unusual; normally, people do this all the time.

For dealing with... In general, just say exactly what you mean, no more and no less. (Actually, that was the thing that made me think Goliath might be an aspie; his epic battles with naturalist.atheist and a few other people on the distinction between "do not believe in God" and "believe there's no God", and a few other cases where he meant exactly what he said, no more, even though it would normally have been understood as a rhetorical proxy for something else.) Be direct. Don't rely on indirect cues or hinting. Say you've got someone who tends to stare because someone told him to make eye contact:

"It seems like you're staring." <-- not enough.
"It seems like you're staring at me, and that makes me uncomfortable. Please don't do that."

These may seem like they're the same, but they're not. The first passes on information. The connection of "why is he telling me this" may not be obvious.

Mostly... If you think someone's an aspie, don't take stuff personally. It's usually pointless.

[Demimonde]

Hmmm... after editing I notice that seebs writes that staring can be a sign. I've always heard the opposite.

[Dingfod]

Staring at the floor, maybe.

[Sock Puppet]

I believe he's referring to aspies who were specifically told they didn't make enough eye contact, so they compensated by staring intently. If intense eye contact is your natural tendency, rather than a compensating behavior, I'd guess it's not a sign.