Sam Harris: Why I am a fucking dick with goggles the size of Texas

[ceptimus]

All the Abrahamic religions have always split into more and more groups - and then the groups love to fight each other. You can explain most of the wars over the past few thousand years like this - though you can also usually find an alternative non-religious reason why the different religions fight each other if you look long enough.

[Watser?]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Supposedly he was from Ur, yes. He was also looking to relocate at the time, and when he found some place suitable, this is where he settled.

Am not sure, but wasn't this also the same place they call Israel today?

Hmmm, I could look it up on the Wikipedia, but something tells me it was in what they call Iraq today because that's what they call Mesopotamia now.

Originally Posted by Iacchus

It seems to me the Arabs have always been pissed off at the Jews. Was just wondering if someone could come up with a definitive point at which this began?

I think it was about 1948.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by The Lone Ranger

We should turn North America over to the Native Americans too, while we're at it. After all, this was at one point their homeland, and they have a lot more history here than the Jewish people do in Israel.

It only seems logical that they should stay and the rest of us should find someplace else to live.

show spoiler

Not a very good analogy, I know.

Yeah, well, the Israeli's are pretty well established now, and I don't think they have any intention of going anywhere. Not unless someone dropped an atomic bomb on them and "obliterated" them all.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Watser?

Hmmm, I could look it up on the Wikipedia, but something tells me it was in what they call Iraq today because that's what they call Mesopotamia now.

Are you saying he settled in Iraq or Canaan? And like I was saying, isn't Canaan what they now call modern-day Israel, am not sure?

Also, I believe Abraham was at peace with his neighbors at the time he settled.

[Watser?]

I'm saying Ur was in what we now refer to as Iraq.

I wasn't saying, but am saying now, that Abraham (Ibrahim) is also considered to be the oldest ancestor of the Arab 'people' (that is everyone who speaks Arabic).

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Watser?

I'm saying Ur was in what we now refer to as Iraq.

I know that's what you're saying. My question was about the land of Canaan?

I wasn't saying, but am saying now, that Abraham (Ibrahim) is also considered to be the oldest ancestor of the Arab 'people' (that is everyone who speaks Arabic).

I think most people understand that too.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Hermit

The reason stretches way further back. After an absence of almost two millennia the newly re-established Jewish nation wasted no time in systematically dispossessing Palestinians of their lands and doing so with extraordinary rapaciousness.

To be honest, I don't particularly care for the Jews or, at least some of the one's I've met personally. For they still think they are God's "chosen people" and, since He is still on "their side," they can do no wrong. It's a pretty arrogant attitude. So to that extent I would have nothing to do with them. While if in fact there is a God in heaven, and the Israelite's were once His chosen people, which I do believe, this is no doubt why they got ousted from their homeland, at least twice.

At the same time I think the Jews (as a people) have suffered enough since the onset of World War II. Which I think is what the folks at the United Nations felt when they drafted up the charter to create an independent state of Israel in 1947 I believe. Nor do I think the Israeli's started moving in until after they were given the go ahead, although I could be wrong? So it's not like it was an all-out invasion at the time. Although the Palestinians undoubtedly perceived it differently. And so led to their (fierce?) resistance and ultimately to the war in 1948.

Or, even if the Israeli's were in such a "hurry" to relocate, you have to consider all the hundreds of thousands of folks who were displaced by the war, and still reeling from the effects of life in the Nazi concentration camps. So yeah, I can see why this may have escalated the situation . . . if in fact it did.

Rapaciousness? What kind of a word is that? French possibly?

[Dingfod]

Hmmm. Most of the Jews I've met are pretty nice people.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Rapaciousness? What kind of a word is that? French possibly?

From Latin circa 1650, rapax, greed, from rapere, to seize.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Hermit

Iacchus, as for calling the area in question as the original homeland of the Jews, ask yourself how it became so. The answer is not difficult to discover. Just look at the account of that in the Jewish "history" book, the Tanakh. You may think that taking possession of land with massacres - even genocide - of the tribes that already lived there somehow trumps the right of others who lived there since the Romans drove the Jews out in 70AD. I do not.

As I said above, I think it was established at the time of Abraham and, that at that time, he cohabited peacefully with his neighbors. Or, I saw some movie on TV where Richard Harris played Abraham and this is what had happened. And Abraham in a whiny voice was always going, "Why me oh Lord!?"

Also, if in fact the account in Exodus is anywhere close to the truth, the Israelites' reputation no doubt would have preceded them, i.e., making life a living hell for the Egyptians. Whereby this "God of Israel" had just made Himself known, no doubt striking fear and dread in the hearts of those in the surrounding regions. So, upon approaching the land of Canaan, whether the other nations were there legitimately or not, notwithstanding this may have been the Israelite's original homeland or, maybe the others believed in a different god or gods? (I wonder if any of these nations were Arabic?), I doubt that they would have wasted any time taking up arms against Israel, with the full intent to destroy and annihilate.

In which case a preemptive strike -- of which the Israelites even today are renowned -- would have been the best means to counter it. Thus explaining all the conflicts with the other nations that followed. That would be my guess at least. Probably even Angakuk's!

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Hmmm. Most of the Jews I've met are pretty nice people.

I should qualify that statement. I've never actually met any really religious Jews, those could indeed be arrogant asshats for all I know.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

Hmmm. Most of the Jews I've met are pretty nice people.

Or, maybe I just don't get around enough, I don't know? While the two folks I had in mind were pretty despicable, and no doubt Zionists. Neither one were very happy and despised most people in general (i.e., gentiles). Although I had talked to one of their mothers over the phone, and she sounded like one of the sweetest persons you could possibly meet. So, maybe he got it from his father?

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

I should qualify that statement. I've never actually met any really religious Jews, those could indeed be arrogant asshats for all I know.

Eh, well, I don't think the two that I'm speaking of were particularly religious, just greedy SOB's. As far as the religious Jews are concerned, I think it can go either way. In fact I have heard that "a Jew" in the religious sense either signifies the highest love towards God or, that which is most diabolical (i.e., evil).

[Crumb]

Is this the thread where we judge entire groups based on a few individuals that we have met?

[Watser?]

Based on that I know there are absolutely no Palestinians that support Hamas. Or Fatah.

[Sock Puppet]

I think it's also the thread where we base our entire view of the Middle East on Bible stories that we can't even be fucked to recall accurately.

[ceptimus]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

I think it's also the thread where we base our entire view of the Middle East on Bible stories that we can't even be fucked to recall accurately.

And so we should! We take our example from Elahad who returned to his city after seeing the message from God written in flaming letters on the desert. He recounted the message to the high priests: 'Thou must slaughter thine enemies, even unto the fifth generation - whosoever looks at thee in a funny way must be put to the sword!'

[Dingfod]

I am p. sure Abraham was great-great grandfather of Moses, not the other way around.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Dingfod

I am p. sure Abraham was great-great grandfather of Moses, not the other way around.

And I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, if that's what you're saying?

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

I think it's also the thread where we base our entire view of the Middle East on Bible stories that we can't even be fucked to recall accurately.

Care to cite anything specific? All I hear from you is the accusation which, is basically all I ever hear from you. But, I guess that's good enough for most people, at least those who were amused enough to thank your post, because I don't hear them citing anything either. Go figure huh?

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Crumb

Is this the thread where we judge entire groups based on a few individuals that we have met?

I suppose it could be. After all I am looking at a few examples of the folks I've met on this forum.

[Dingfod]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

And I'm pretty sure I didn't say that, if that's what you're saying?

Pardon me for your confusing me.

[Iacchus]

Beats me?

[Sock Puppet]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Care to cite anything specific? All I hear from you is the accusation which, is basically all I ever hear from you. But, I guess that's good enough for most people, at least those who were amused enough to thank your post, because I don't hear them citing anything either. Go figure huh?

I don't normally engage you fully because you can't follow your own argument, let alone somebody else's. But I'll provide this just because it might accelerate the inevitable meltdown, and you can slink off back to your holding pen.

Originally Posted by Iacchus

As I said above, I think it was established at the time of Abraham and, that at that time, he cohabited peacefully with his neighbors. Or, I saw some movie on TV where Richard Harris played Abraham and this is what had happened. And Abraham in a whiny voice was always going, "Why me oh Lord!?"

Source: a half-remembered TV movie. Good job, soldier.

So, upon approaching the land of Canaan, whether the other nations were there legitimately or not, notwithstanding this may have been the Israelite's original homeland or, maybe the others believed in a different god or gods? (I wonder if any of these nations were Arabic?), I doubt that they would have wasted any time taking up arms against Israel, with the full intent to destroy and annihilate.

You're seriously making a Biblical argument when you don't know this basic shit taught in Sunday school about what the Canaanites believed, or what their ethnicities were. (Ba'al doesn't even ring a bell?) And then speculating on what these people you know nothing about would or wouldn't have done.

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Supposedly he was from Ur, yes. He was also looking to relocate at the time, and when he found some place suitable, this is where he settled.

Am not sure, but wasn't this also the same place they call Israel today?

You don't know how, when or where Israel was established. Hint: It's sort of important to the narrative. Before you try to apply Biblical pseudo-history to a current event, you might at least read said pseudo-history.

Originally Posted by Iacchus

So what got the Arabs so pissed off at the Israeli's anyway? Does it have anything to do with the books of Exodus and Joshua? Or, was it something that happened later?

Now be a good little shitposter and finish your hissy fit.

[Angakuk]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Also, I believe Abraham was at peace with his neighbors at the time he settled.

Not entirely.

Genesis 14:13-16 (NRSV)
13 Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, who was living by the oaks of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and of Aner; these were allies of Abram.
14 When Abram heard that his nephew had been taken captive, he led forth his trained men, born in his house, three hundred eighteen of them, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.
15 He divided his forces against them by night, he and his servants, and routed them and pursued them to Hobah, north of Damascus.
16 Then he brought back all the goods, and also brought back his nephew Lot with his goods, and the women and the people.